Ness changes in Ultimate

Thunderjay

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Ness's recovery is beyond terrible in ultimate. It's just too many ways to stop it. Now most people just jump in front of pk thunder 2 and it stops all momentum. It's really ridiculous that they made an already bad recovery even worse.
Yeah, if you have to PKT2 from afar, that can be difficult--I wouldn't call his recovery "beyond terrible" though *cough*Cloud*cough*. If you do it closer to the ledge you ram someone and still make it. Being too close to the ledge makes you an easy target for attacks though, so I think of it as a "sweet spot" distance from the ledge. I've found that mixing up my recovery helps: PKT2-ing early and aiming horizontally or diagonally down toward the edge or aiming vertically up from below the ledge, using double jump with PSI Magnet and Ness's magnet hands, airdodging to the ledge, throwing out aerials to clear the ledge or opponent in my way...

Unfortunately, there isn't really much you can do against some characters like Rosalina other than just don't go offstage.
 
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Thunderjay

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This was supposed to be an edit, not quote sorry.. (plz delete)
 
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Outlawstarx

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Didn't it already do this in Smash 4 as well?
Yea true but not to this extent. He would still travel some distance in smash 4 after hitting someone. In ultimate its like hitting a wall. you go practically no where.

Yeah, if you have to PKT2 from afar, that can be difficult--I wouldn't call his recovery "beyond terrible" though *cough*Cloud*cough*. If you do it closer to the ledge you ram someone and still make it. Being too close to the ledge makes you an easy target for attacks though, so I think of it as a "sweet spot" distance from the ledge. I've found that mixing up my recovery helps: PKT2-ing early and aiming horizontally or diagonally down toward the edge or aiming vertically up from below the ledge, using double jump with PSI Magnet and Ness's magnet hands, airdodging to the ledge, throwing out aerials to clear the ledge or opponent in my way...

Unfortunately, there isn't really much you can do against some characters like Rosalina other than just don't go offstage.
Yeah, if you have to PKT2 from afar, that can be difficult--I wouldn't call his recovery "beyond terrible" though *cough*Cloud*cough*. If you do it closer to the ledge you ram someone and still make it. Being too close to the ledge makes you an easy target for attacks though, so I think of it as a "sweet spot" distance from the ledge. I've found that mixing up my recovery helps: PKT2-ing early and aiming horizontally or diagonally down toward the edge or aiming vertically up from below the ledge, using double jump with PSI Magnet and Ness's magnet hands, airdodging to the ledge, throwing out aerials to clear the ledge or opponent in my way...

Unfortunately, there isn't really much you can do against some characters like Rosalina other than just don't go offstage.
I agree Clouds recovery is bad but considering his offense, speed, power and range. that more than makes up for his recovery. Just like Little Mac, incredible offense but lacking in his recovery. Ness is the opposite of that. His offense/ speed/ range is not incredible. Its good maybe slightly better than average but not great. Definitely not good enough to justify his difficult/vulnerable recovery. There are plenty of changes that they could make to his pk thunder to improve it. Like giving Ness super armor for 1 second after PK thunder is activated or making the Pk thunder bolt immune to disruption for the first 1.5 seconds, Or at least removing the distance nerf on his PK Thunder 2 after hitting someone.

I just feel like the changes the made to him in Ultimate did much more harm than good. Also I don't want to come off as argumentative or anything. I appreciate you sharing some of the tactics that you use when playing him.
 

Thunderjay

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I just feel like the changes the made to him in Ultimate did much more harm than good. Also I don't want to come off as argumentative or anything. I appreciate you sharing some of the tactics that you use when playing him.
Nah, you're good.

PKT2 actually had superarmor for some frames in the last game--not sure if they changed it in this installment; the bolt also doesn't fizzle out when you PKT when someone's right on top of you like the last game as well. I do agree that a small change like that would help Ness immensely.

I see what you're saying with Cloud and LM but they are offensive characters for the most part--that's their job. Ness is a defensive character, designed to react to and punish the opponent's bad decisions. They airdodge too close to you? PKF, dash attack + juggle, or grab. They dash in? Nair. They linger offstage? Gimp them with PKT tail. They spend too much time on the ledge? Yo-yo, PKF, PKT. Spam you with projectiles? Fsmash, magnet, Nair. They approach you carelessly from the air? Any aerial, Usmash, PKT.

For every gimp or misimput I've had with PKT2, there was always a player who jumps into PKT2 and gets punished with death while I magnet hands my way to the ledge.
 
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Luigifan18

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Nah, you're good.

PKT2 actually had superarmor for some frames in the last game--not sure if they changed it in this installment; the bolt also doesn't fizzle out when you PKT when someone's right on top of you like the last game as well. I do agree that a small change like that would help Ness immensely.

I see what you're saying with Cloud and LM but they are offensive characters for the most part--that's their job. Ness is a defensive character, designed to react to and punish the opponent's bad decisions. They airdodge too close to you? PKF, dash attack + juggle, or grab. They dash in? Nair. They linger offstage? Gimp them with PKT tail. They spend too much time on the ledge? Yo-yo, PKF, PKT. Spam you with projectiles? Fsmash, magnet, Nair. They approach you carelessly from the air? Any aerial, Usmash, PKT.

For every gimp or misimput I've had with PKT2, there was always a player who jumps into PKT2 and gets punished with death while I magnet hands my way to the ledge.
This is a big part of why I love playing as Ness so much. He's built to be hard to deal with.
 

Sajomir

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Explosions have been absorbable since Smash 4. (I'm still disappointed that Oil Panic and PSI Magnet/Absorbing Vortex are the only absorbing moves, but it's nice that they've all been buffed to provide general projectile protection.)
Haven't played much Smash in a while. Only some explosions seem absorbable, though. Young Link's bombs, Samus's missiles, and a few others aren't. That's why Link's remote bombs came as a surprise here in Smash Ultimate.
 

Specs64z

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While you get more recoil/endlag from PKT2, it also does more damage,
PKT2 doesn't actually do more damage, just the projectile itself does.

Just going to post this link one last time for more exposure, since it already points out several of the changes mentioned above.

Ness's frame data and damage values, as well as a list of general changes from Smash 4:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l7_4rJGAzumRPMg74BJoJhvSx3yubr5UVVgA6d9rr6o/edit?usp=sharing

Edit:
PKT2 actually had superarmor for some frames in the last game--not sure if they changed it in this installment; the bolt also doesn't fizzle out when you PKT when someone's right on top of you like the last game as well. I do agree that a small change like that would help Ness immensely.
PKT2 actually has full intangibility for about the first half of the move (this is in smash 4 as well). The PKT change you mention was in smash 4, as well.
 
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paradvx

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glitched out and posted comment twice. please delete
 
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Specs64z

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I need to step my magnet game up. feel like magnet could be the big ness upgrade everyone's sleeping on

https://twitter.com/Flash_wire/status/1073839205787361280
I have doubts about how viable that sort of combo will end up being in a real match, and whether the combo is consistent enough among the cast to make a difference, but at a glance it seems that PSI magnet's new hitbox has more potential than I thought.

Stuff like that had a history of being patched out in Smash 4, though, so here's to hoping the move goes untouched for some time.
 

Nergal69

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Has anyone tested the multiplier PSI Magnet has when absorbing a teammate's projectiles? In Smash 4 they patched the amount that was healed by half and that really diminished some of his strategy in teams.
 

Specs64z

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Has anyone tested the multiplier PSI Magnet has when absorbing a teammate's projectiles? In Smash 4 they patched the amount that was healed by half and that really diminished some of his strategy in teams.
It's still halved in teams, unfortunately.
 

EGsmash

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Wait, what?!? Does it really lose its momentum upon hitting somebody?!?
It does, but it also did in Smash 4. That was an easy way to gimp Ness if you were up a stock was just to take the hit and let him fall.
 

paradvx

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I have doubts about how viable that sort of combo will end up being in a real match, and whether the combo is consistent enough among the cast to make a difference, but at a glance it seems that PSI magnet's new hitbox has more potential than I thought.
well this combo was more to show how creative you can be with it. the fow clip i posted earlier shows him magnet cancelling onto the stage and doing more stuff like that. Just saying that with this hitbox it makes the move even more useful.
 

LightLV

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edit: holy **** magnet got a huge buff. it can eat physical projectiles like links arrow and boomerang. never thought to try this out of habit but saw it in this match with fow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Woy5iEvUI . seems like you don't get health back though
It can't eat physical projectiles, it just has a hitbox now and it clashes.

I thought Ness was pretty meh until i started playing with PSI magnet, specifically its stall abilities. It opens up some crazy options for him.
 

Kobeskillz

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It can't eat physical projectiles, it just has a hitbox now and it clashes.

I thought Ness was pretty meh until i started playing with PSI magnet, specifically its stall abilities. It opens up some crazy options for him.
Yeah same here.

Again not against pros but I won 15 times straight last night with ness online. Different people too.

His recover is bad but most people that aren’t pro just kinda wait for him and I use that’s o launch myself like a rocket towards them killing them instantly pretty much.

He might not be pro level viable but he’s a great Great character.

He’s so unpredictable that people have a hard time with him. He’s so fun to use too. I’m sure others are ragging cause they get killed in so many unpredictable ways.
 

EGsmash

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I have doubts about how viable that sort of combo will end up being in a real match, and whether the combo is consistent enough among the cast to make a difference, but at a glance it seems that PSI magnet's new hitbox has more potential than I thought.

Stuff like that had a history of being patched out in Smash 4, though, so here's to hoping the move goes untouched for some time.
I've been using Magnet shenanigans since I watched the FOW video posted earlier and Mag combos in general are definitely legit tactics. I personally like to follow up a short hopped PKM with a falling Fair that cancels before the knockback, then grab, but I'll have to try this one too.

You can also B-reverse magnet to change the way you're facing if you decide mid-air that you want to do a Bair or Fair. And of course it's great to stall out momentum for mixups and baits.
 

Specs64z

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I've been using Magnet shenanigans since I watched the FOW video posted earlier and Mag combos in general are definitely legit tactics. I personally like to follow up a short hopped PKM with a falling Fair that cancels before the knockback, then grab, but I'll have to try this one too.
No yeah, I've been watching the likes of FOW, Bestness, and Awestin use magnet and I was way wrong in terms of it's combo potential. The set knockback is actually insane in tandem with the new Uair's an fair's drag down -> grab.
 

Luigifan18

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PK Thunder's projectiles are crazy good in this game. I’m used to just using them for harassment and damage racking, but just the other day, I won the Min Min Spirit battle by using PK Thunder to juggle her off the top. It was surreal.
 
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The Rhythm Theif

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No offense to you Luigifan18, but I like Lucas more than Ness. I don't have to deal with Lucas players spamming "OkEy" in Arena Battles, they play fair (even if they spam PK Freeze and PK Fire, in which the latter is WAY too easy to dodge), and I'm even planning on picking up Lucas myself! Ness players are all just PK Fire, "OkEy," disrespect, and PK Thunder.
 
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