Guide Ness Adv. Technique Showcase and Guide (complete with Crotchcam!)

Bryonato

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#1
Updated on 7/22! CHANGELIST HERE!!!:
Hello again Ness community. I'm here with a sizable update to my guide showcasing movement techniques and some new platform tech. A lot of this stuff goes a bit more in depth than the original guide and is a bit harder to categorize so I've left most of it in it's own section on the bottom. Enjoy!

Changelog:
-Added a new section to MAGNET PLATFORM CANCEL
-Added "Magdrop" section below "7/22 Update...." Segment
-Added "Waveland DJC Platform Mixup section below "7/22 Update...." Segment
-Added "Movement/Movement practice" section below "7/22 Update...." Segment
-Added "Multimag/Magnet Scoot" section below "7/22 Update...." Segment
-Added "Yo-Yo tricks" section below "7/22 Update...." Segment
-Added "Cazcom's Stairway to death" section below "7/22 Update...." Segment

Hey everyone! Bryonato here again and today I'll be bringing you a small, informative guide on *most* of Ness' advance techniques and abilities in Project M 3.5. We'll go over the essential stuff like DJC and even the useless things like mpc (magnet platform cancel).

I have a series of videos prepared that were recorded live during one of my livestreams at www.twitch.tv/bryonato, so I apologize if they are a bit scattered/unprofessional. Please ask any questions you have about any of these techniques below. Without further ado...

Table of contents:
1. Double jump shenanigans
  • a. Double Jump Cancel
  • b. Double Jump Cancel Wavedash
  • c. Ledge Jump Cancel
  • d. Platform Looping
  • e. Double Jump Land

2. Turnaround B, B-reversing, Wavebouncing, and you
  • a. Turnaround B
  • b. B-reversal
  • c. Wavebounce

3. Magnets and how they work
  • a. Magnet explanation, use in recovery, baits, and combo extension
  • b. Magnet Dash
  • c. Magnet Platform Cancel *updated 7/22!!*
i. MPC -> Maggrab
ii. MPC -> JC usmash
iii. MPC -> AC DJC bair -> f/dsmash

4. Amazing, but impractical
  • a. Lagless Grounded PKFire
5. 7/22 Update - New Platform Tech, Moving with Ness, Yo-Yo tricks, and more!
  • a. Magdrop
  • b. Waveland DJC Platform Mixup
  • c. Movement/Movement Practice
  • d. Multimag/Magnet Scoot
  • e. Yo-Yo Tricks
  • f. Cazcom's "Stairway to Death"
6. Misc stuff

Double Jump Shenanigans

DOUBLE JUMP CANCEL (DJC):
An extremely useful technique. DJC allows Ness to cancel the vertical momentum in his second jump with an aerial, allowing for a plethora of different aerial options like djc uair juggles, djc fair/nair for combos, low and tricky djc bairs, and so much more.
Ness has interesting properties with his second jump when you have the stick angled diagonal up-left or up-right where he swings in said direction. This, along with things like magnet, b-reversing (covered later) and DJC allows for some seriously weird and unique momentum mixups that can help him weave over and between projectiles find his way in on an opponent with fair and pkfire.

DOUBLE JUMP CANCEL WAVEDASH (DJC WD):
This is something I more or less pioneered. As I just mentioned, Ness has unique properties when performing his second jump where he can swing either left or right. When you do a fast djc and get that swing low to the ground, the swing will keep Ness just barely above the ground, allowing you to get extra distance when performing a wavedash.
DJC wavedash gives Ness about an extra third of the distance of his normal wavedash when performed correctly. It's a technical AT but if you put the practice in it's a very powerful tool, especially when you start mixing in things like dash forward, djc backward, wd forward.
My input for this technique (if performed to the left, just reverse for right) is:
:GCY: -> :GCUL: -> :GCLT: + :GCDL:

LEDGE JUMP CANCEL (LJC):
Shoutouts to @The_NZA for pioneering this and @ GMaster171 GMaster171 for all the frame data on it.
If you've ever played Ness you've probably noticed he has a rather poor ledge game due to his slow second jump. LJC fixes this by allowing Ness to cancel his second jump while retaining ledge invincibility frames. When performed correctly Ness can perform invincible nairs, shields, fairs, dairs, etc. There's footage of me somewhere going right through a Game n Watch upB with this.
This next bit isn't covered in the video (I forgot Q_Q), but with LJC you can refresh your invinc. frames very quickly through a pseudo Hax-dash by ledge jumping, double jumping forward asap, and then wavedashing back. Gmaster has footage of this on this board somewhere.

PLATFORM LOOPING:
While this technique certainly isn't as useful as some of the others I've listed, it certainly has a niche and a place. Platform looping is performed by wavedashing off of a platform, using Ness' swinging double jump to swing back ground, and then wavelanding off the platform again. This, combined with Ness' aerials, allows for some really tricky baits and movement mixups that can really catch your opponent off guard. It also looks flashy, so that helps.

DOUBLE JUMP LAND (DJL):
Like other characters with DJC, Ness possesses the ability to double jump land. DJL is where you make use of the dip in Ness' second jump to laglessly land on a platform. It should be noted that this is a 1-frame window.
This is best utilized IMO in conjunction with his tilts and smashes. DJL -> dsmash is a great way to chase a tech onto a platform and cover most of your opponent's tech options. DJL -> dtilt works wonders as well as dtilt is a godlike move that combo's into nearly everything Ness has.
Another theoretical combo is instant DJC dair -> DJL fsmash (though I would be better just to do a bair or uair afterwards).

Turnaround B, B-reversing, Wavebouncing, and you

Brawl tech terms, amitie? This is something I see people get confused about CONSTANTLY. The three techniques listed above are not Ness specific, but Ness employs all of them to great use and I think it's necessary to clarify the difference between all of them to help eliminate any confusion between the terms.

TURNAROUND B:
A turnaround B is where you change the direction you're facing, but not your momentum. It's like when you dash away from an opponent and throw out a retreating pkfire. Simple, really. This was present in Melee, as well.
Turnaround pkfire:
:GCR: -> :GCY: -> :GCB: + :GCL:

B-REVERSE:
A B-reverse is where you change both the direction you're facing AND your momentum. A bit more complicated; this is where you'll be running one direction, press special and then the opposite direction you are facing within four frames, and throw out your special move while completely reversing your momentum and going in the opposite direction.
B-reverse pkfire:
:GCR: -> :GCY: -> :GCB: + :GCR: -> :GCL: (you have 4 frames to input the reverse direction otherwise it will not work).

WAVEBOUNCE:
It's a lot easier to "show" rather than to "tell" with this technique. Wavebouncing is where you reverse your momentum BUT NOT your direction. It causes you to do a little zig zag motion and is a great mixup/way to bait your opponent into a pkfire. A great use for it is: when you're below a platform, do a fullhop B reverse pkfire. This will allow you to feign an approaching pkfire while allowing you to quickly land safely on the above platform, able to capitalize on your opponent's next move.
Wavebounce pkfire:
:GCR: -> :GCY: -> :GCB: + :GCL: -> :GCR:


Magnets and how they work
This section won't be quite as organized due to the high amount of small, nuanced things you can do with this ability.

MAGNET EXPLANATION, USE IN RECOVERY, BAITS, AND COMBO EXTENSION:
In this first video I go over a few of magnets uses as well as a general preface to how the move works. Magnet cancels Ness vertical momentum while extending his horizontal momentum slightly. It comes out on frame 8 and works *similar* to a shine with a hitbox that sends at a 45 degree angle.
It can be used during recovery similar to how Lucas uses his by stalling. B-reversing it and wavedashing out works wonders as a bait. The NZA will sometimes just magnet away from someone and wait, and when they come in to chase/approach he just jumps back at them with a djc fair.
Magnet also works great as a combo extender at low-mid% when used along with Ness DJC and unique swing on his double jump. It combo's directly into all of his aerials on correct performance. It has a great use along with dair where you can do something like magnet -> dair -> jab reset. Beautiful.

MAGNET DASH:
This is one of my favorite AT's that Ness has. You'll notice that as your opponent gets to a higher %, magnet's use as far as comboing goes really just kind of goes kaput. Well fear not! Magnet dashing is here to fix that.
Magnet dashing is "like a waveshine but a million times cooler." It's performed by short hopping, magnetting as close to the ground as possible, and then wavedashing out.
It works best at mid-high % where it can lead into most all of Ness' aerial options including uair and dair kills. Also, while I never recommend this as fair is probably always better, at low % you can dthrow -> mag dash -> regrab. It looks sick, but if you want to dthrow and then regarb, just use djc fair.
Magnet dash also works well on fast-fallers like spacies and Roy, Diddy, MK, etc. because it will force a knockdown around 84% on spacies (don't remember the exact numbers on the latter characters) which can lead right into a tech chase djc dair, bthrow, etc. You can also juggle midweights with repeated magnet dashes around 50%. Pointless considering Ness' other options, but it looks cool as hell.

MAGNET PLATFORM CANCEL (MPC) *updated 7/22*:
Something totally useless discovered by yours truly. When you magnet while jumping up through a platform, if timed correctly you'll appear laglessly in a grounded magnet on the platform. You arguably get more mileage by jumping above the platform and magnetting so you don't have to worry about jumpsquat frames. The only real use I can think of for this technique is doing MPC into a maggrab.
Update 7/22 - MPC Revisited:
Previously considered rather useless, between my own experimentation and brainstorming with a few of my Ness bros we took a second look at this technique and came up with some new tech for it!
  1. MPC -> Maggrab: I previously mentioned this in my original post but only now really came to take a look at it. After using MPC you can jump cancel the magnet into a grab (works just like a spacie's shinegrab). Maggrab is safe on shield and a great way to catch an opponent in shield (lest they buffer a roll).
  2. MPC -> JC usmash: In general, Mag -> jc usmash is a good defensive option as it quickly throws out two hitboxes that cover Ness' entire hurtbox. It also has offensive uses as mag -> jc usmash will combo at low % on floaties and low/mid % on fast fallers.
  3. MPC -> autocancel bair -> F/Dsmash: Okay, yeah, this is pretty technical, but performed correctly it's SO SICK! When you perform an aerial, but land before any actual hitbox comes out, it will autocancel. Autocancel means you can act immediately out of it without having to LCancel. I've talked about this before in my LJC section. GMaster and I were theorizing that at mid % on fastfallers you could MPC -> AC bair -> instant fsmash. It's technically demanding but I've gotten it down in practice (I struggle with it a lot in the video, as we had just discovered it). You can opt for dsmash instead as well for a tech chase, as dsmash covers the entirety of most platforms.

Amazing, but impractical

LAGLESS GROUNDED PKFIRE:
This technique is honestly pretty amazing, but it's SO HARD TO DO. This is a one frame window:
When doing an aerial pkfire, if you hit the ground on the SAME FRAME that Ness' releases the actual projectile, Ness will throw out a grounded pkfire that he can act instantly out of. Theoretically you could do some crazy stuff with this AT but it's really just way too hard IMO. There's no real visual que and you have to rely 100% on muscle memory and timing.

7/22 Update - New platform tech, moving with Ness, yoyo tricks, and more!

Preface: A lot of the tech you'll find here is very situational and a bit more technically demanding than a lot of what I've listed previously. Following will be small things that I've discovered/talked about with others here and there that I simply wanted to share with other people.

MAGDROP (?): I'm not sure how much I like this technique having a name, especially since magdrop isn't *technically* what is happening in this technique. Anyways... Magdrop is performed by dropping (or shield dropping) through a platform and then instantly using magnet. After the magnet you djc nair (or any aerial) immediately. If you are fast enough the djc aerial will place you back on the platform you just dropped through. This has great theoretical uses for combos/shield pressure. There is also a window in this technique where you can drop -> magnet -> double jump land. I can't do it consistently but it's very, very cool.

WAVELAND DJC PLATFORM MIXUP: When you WL off a platform, if you instantly do a neutral djc aerial (djc without holding the stick left or right to influence the swing) the momentum from the double jump will land you right back on the platform you just wavelanded off of. It's a small little mindgame that could theoretically be effective as a bait or even to chase a tech to the left/right side of the platform.

MOVEMENT/MOVEMENT PRACTICE: People always compliment me on my movement with Ness and ask me how to get better with theirs. Honestly, the best way to practice movement tech imo is just to grind. Spend time in training mode on battlefield and experiment with different things you can do with platform looping, b reverse magnets, dj -> wavelands, etc. etc. Ness has a plethora of unique movement options. I really recommend watching the video on this particular segment so you can see some examples of what I do.
When you spend time grinding and practicing things like this, you'll find ways to apply it when you're actually fighting someone and ways to apply it on different platforms/stages. Developing your tech skill and just understanding your options at any given moment is very important. If you want some hard tech to try:
DJC wave-magnet: grounded magnet -> djc wavedash -> repeat.
B reverse platform looping: WL off platform -> magnet -> (turn around in magnet if necessary) -> b reverse magnet -> double jump back through platform -> repeat.
Platform swinging: On any stage with a platform on either side - WL off one platform -> double jump through opposite platform -> WL off that platform -> repeat. I often throw a magnet/b reverse magnet in between plats during this.
MPC DJC wavedash platform loop: Magnet platform cancel -> djc waveland off platform -> double jump back through platform -> MPC and so on. If you want to increase button inputs do the B reverse I mentioned earlier after the waveland.

MULTIMAG/MAGNET SCOOT: Relatively unused tech. I am unsure if any of these are very good considering how good magnet is. If you know what a multishine is then you know what multimagnet is. Multimag is a grounded magnet, jumping, and then throwing out a magnet again before your feet leave the ground. Again, same idea as a multishine.
Magnet scooting is performed by holding your stick like this :GCDR: and then doing a multimags. You will "scoot" across the ground while doing multimags. It's pretty funny looking!

YOYO TRICKS: Ness USmash/DSmash have some unique properties that can be exploited.
  1. Magnet -> jc usmash: I talked about this before in the guide. By performing a magnet and then jump canceling a usmash, Ness can combo opponents with both moves at low %. It is also a good defensive option as it quickly throws out two hitboxes that quickly cover Ness' entire body.
  2. Yoyo charge edgeguard: If you've played Ness for any length of time, you've probaby discovered this yourself. When you charge Ness Yoyo next to the ledge, the yoyo will hang off the ledge, and conveniently has a hitbox on it while its charging! If opponents get hit by this when recovering, the light knockback will often send them straight down. This works great against opponents who aren't familiar with the Ness MU as they won't see it coming and probably won't react in time. This is a very good setup for an offstage dair vs. spacies/C.Falcon. IMO this technique works best against opponents with linear recoveries (Ganon, Falcon, etc.) and spacies. Try not to just autopilot and use this technique at the ledge every time. An opponent that is waiting for it can easily react and upB as there is very little hitstun on the charge. It's also a shame to disregard Ness AMAZING offstage edgeguard game and just sit on the stage charging a smash.
  3. DJL dsmash: Double jump land dsmash is a great way to cover any tech your opponent makes on a platform due to its range and speed. I talk about this briefly in the video.
One thing I forgot to mention in the video is a janky little thing Ness can do on Skyloft. If you walk to the slant on the far left side of the stage underneath the platform, try facing the ledge and dsmashing. The dsmash will go right through the stage and give you a free, safe edgeguard in most situations.

@Cazcom 's "STAIRWAY TO DEATH": This is a really cool specific technique Ness has on spacies discovered (and shown to me) by Cazcom, a really good Ness main from Western WA. When you get a spacie offstage, if spaced/timed correctly you can magnet right next to them, let magnet drop (without jumping), and then at that point you *should* be right next to the spacie again, where you can magnet again, and repeat till they die. IT'S SOOO COOL! WATCH THE VIDEO!


Miscellaneous Stuff:

During the remainder of my livestream I answered questions with chat and talked about different techniques and combinations of certain techniques and how Ness can use them. There's a lot of good footage there that I don't want to go to waste, but it's rather sporadic so instead of making YT vids for all of them I'm going to link directly to their spot in the stream archive here.

Combining b-reversal, wavebounce and platform movement/looping:
http://www.twitch.tv/bryonato/b/530456936?t=6m52s

Buffering your momentum out of Magnet:
http://www.twitch.tv/bryonato/b/530456936?t=10m50s

Refreshing ledge invincibility using LJC:
http://www.twitch.tv/bryonato/b/530456936?t=13m55s

Link to the archives with all the misc stuff:
http://www.twitch.tv/bryonato/b/530456936
http://www.twitch.tv/bryonato/b/548324141

Link to the Youtube playlist with all the videos here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQj-8fvwN4uLrag3rPve7J_qeI9rQWTnD

Thank you all for reading and watching! I had a lot of fun creating this. Hope I didn't forget anything.
 
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Tetraflora

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
12
Location
Detroit, Michigan
#7
y u so cool and helpful to the ness community, bryon!?

No but I really do love how much of a bro you are to all of us, this kind of thing will be such a nice point of reference to so many Ness players who need to know these things. Great job on the guide and thanks!
 

Lunchables

Roy's our Boy
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Jul 21, 2011
Messages
3,415
#14
Yknow I'm still waiting on the fobbling guide, the one aliami made was deleted iirc

Well? What're you doing? Teach me how to fobble.
 

Eagleye893

Smash Champion
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#16
Very nice Guide. Clears up a couple of things I wasn't so sure about and helped give an idea of how to properly do things. A+'d
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
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Location
Oklahoma City
#24
Good stuff, buddy. Love the work you put in. We've got a few aspiring Ness mains around the OK area, and this makes teaching them stuff a lot easier. Even learned a few tricks myself.

Yknow I'm still waiting on the fobbling guide, the one aliami made was deleted iirc

Well? What're you doing? Teach me how to fobble.
Don't worry, Mr. President. I gotcha. You're gonna need to get some stuff first, though.
-an old shoe (20+years)
-a stale scone, preferably one without glaze, but any will do
-a sprinkling of fairy dust
- finally, an opponent who has literally no idea what they're doing.

Get back at me when you've got the necessary components.
 

The 0ne

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Massachusetts
3DS FC
0104-2324-5980
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toady3
#27
Still waiting on the yo-yo portion...

But beside that, I am a new competitive player and am going to my first tournament ever this Saturday. It's SG Dark Poob Rising, if you were wondering. This guide made me so anxious at how much stuff I wasn't doing. I know I won't win this tournament, but can I get your honest opinion, Byronato:
Do I really NEED to learn all of the ATs here that you say are fundamental to be a successful competitor in the future? By fundamental, I mean like excluding lagless grounded pk fire, magnet land and things like that.

For example: I kind of immediately decided that I wouldn't even bother learning the wavebounce because of the complexity, the fact that I mostly "train" on CPUs, and I don't find it all that important compared to the b-reversal. Good, bad or indifferent? (the wavebounce refusal, not CPU training which I can't really help.)

I use the djc frequently; I'm good on that. Also, big thing: I don't wavedash. I know how, but I don't find it necessary to implement into my ness game. Good, bad or indifferent?
Sorry about the long post, but please give me your feedback as soon as possible to everything I've asked you about. Maybe if you're just an awesome person, you could make a list of the order in which I should learn them?

Thank you so much! :ness:
 
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Bryonato

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#28
Still waiting on the yo-yo portion...

But beside that, I am a new competitive player and am going to my first tournament ever this Saturday. It's SG Dark Poob Rising, if you were wondering. This guide made me so anxious at how much stuff I wasn't doing. I know I won't win this tournament, but can I get your honest opinion, Byronato:
Do I really NEED to learn all of the ATs here that you say are fundamental to be a successful competitor in the future? By fundamental, I mean like excluding lagless grounded pk fire, magnet land and things like that.

For example: I kind of immediately decided that I wouldn't even bother learning the wavebounce because of the complexity, the fact that I mostly "train" on CPUs, and I don't find it all that important compared to the b-reversal. Good, bad or indifferent? (the wavebounce refusal, not CPU training which I can't really help.)

I use the djc frequently; I'm good on that. Also, big thing: I don't wavedash. I know how, but I don't find it necessary to implement into my ness game. Good, bad or indifferent?
Sorry about the long post, but please give me your feedback as soon as possible to everything I've asked you about. Maybe if you're just an awesome person, you could make a list of the order in which I should learn them?

Thank you so much! :ness:
Most essential is LJC and DJC. I think both of these techniques are super important to have down and be consistent/comfortable with.

Wavebouncing/b-reversal are important, as they give you SOOO many more options with pkfire, which is Ness' strongest tool. I can't tell you how many times I've caught someone at the beginning of a match with a fullhop wb pkfire. I also think it is very important to get a good grasp on wavedashing. The hardest part about learning WD is discovering when/how to implement it into your game.

Magnet stuff in general is helpful, but not essential. Amazing when you have a grasp of how/when to implement it but you're not going to lose and win games based on your magnet usage. Magnet stuff is imo something you should learn after you have your fundamentals down and are looking for ways to further improve your game. It's not a very intuitive tool so it's hard to get down. DJC wavedash, DJL and platform looping fit in this category, too. They're good, but not immediately necessary.
 

thesage

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#30
Is it wrong that I prefer djc pk fire to all these b reversal thingys? I really suck at anything involving the b button and the control stick which is why I don't play spacies.
 

thesage

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#32
I'm white and my hands are hands. Who the hell measures their hands? I just have very slow finger speed.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Ness can grab the edge (both forwards and backwards) during the ending animation of pkt1. Pretty useless since wd'ing is in the game but hey let's be flashy. Could be used as a getup option from the ledge in a friendly lol.
 
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krazyzyko

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
2,126
Location
El Carajo, Puerto Rico
#33
There's one more thing about magnet. If you hold B after the initial hitbox, it will endlessly keep giving consecutive hits but with no knockback nor hitstun (like Fox's lasers).

So you can use it to stack up damage after a broken shield or a missed rest by activating it over your opponent and then landing with that constant hitbox. And then you can JC magnet to:
Down throw > Fair/Nair
Back throw
DJC dair > Uair/Nair
DJC Nair/bair/uair
up smash
PK fire
 
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Akhenderson

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Redmond, WA
#34
I really have to practice my magnet dashes more so that I can extend my combos and cause further confusion with my movement. This helps immensely with how I'll be able to move~
 

Bryonato

Green Hat
Premium
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Apr 24, 2012
Messages
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Lewiston, ID
#38
^ just REALLY hard.
In other news, HUGE update coming for this in a few days. Doing the stream tonight (hopefully) and then updating with all the new footage and tech by Saturday evening.
Will be going over platform tech combining mag/instant DJCs, movement/movement practice, USES FOR MPC (?!?!?!?), yoyo tricks and a few other things :)
Should be streaming tonight (7/16/14) around 10:30pm PST. www.twitch.tv/bryonato

Any preemptive questions you guys want me to answer on stream?
 
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Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
648
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Cleveland, OH/Providence, RI
#40
Wow! I'm still sort of new to competitive play, but this guide should really help me step up my Ness game. Thanks!

I'm kind of a scrub, and I had a question about magnet dashing: what would the inputs for that look like? You say to short hop and magnet, then wavedash out of the magnet; can I wavedash straight out of magnet, or do I need to double jump THEN wavedash, or do I need to just let go of magnet and wavedash very quickly? Nothing I'm doing seems to come out right.

Also, concerning DJC wavedashing, is there a certain trick to the input, or just quick fingers? I started looking into competitive smash after a bit of time playing a XBox fighter called Injustice, and my fingers are still adjusting, but I just wanted to see if there was something I was doing wrong as opposed to it just being my current level of awfulness.
 
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