Nerfs that really bothered ya

[MarioMeteor]

I disagree with the cyclone nerf. They could have weakened luigi by toning down luigi's down smash by lowering knockback, removing the invincibility, and more endlag. Maybe add more landing lag to his super jump punch too

Why would they do that? His down smash was already by far his worst smash attack, and SJP isn't used enough to where it would need a landing lag nerf.

 

[Wnyke]

have you talked about DDD's gordo?... I mean, why???... 2% to reflect it, so flamethrower/laser, metaknight/diddy/bayoneta jab and zelda f.smash can't reflect gordo, maybe 3% was a bit too much... maybe... but 2%??, I mean could they do the "sheik" and move it just 0.5% up...

 

[Green L]

Why would they do that? His down smash was already by far his worst smash attack, and SJP isn't used enough to where it would need a landing lag nerf.

Luigi's down smash has the longest range, invincibility, and low lag. This way, luigi would be still be a threat but lower his power. Adding more lag to SJP would give opponents more time to punish. They could have added more lag and lower the hit stun on Luigi's up throw too so it's not so easy to combo into.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Luigi's down smash has the longest range, invincibility, and low lag. This way, luigi would be still be a threat but lower his power. Adding more lag to SJP would give opponents more time to punish. They could have added more lag and lower the hit stun on Luigi's up throw too so it's not so easy to combo into.

But there would be no point in lowering the knockback if it doesn't kill in the first place. There's pretty much no reason to use it over his other smash attacks anyway. SJP already has hella lag upon hitting the ground and if you miss it you're probably going to eat a smash attack as is, and his up throw doesn't combo into anything.

 

[Green L]

But there would be no point in lowering the knockback if it doesn't kill in the first place. There's pretty much no reason to use it over his other smash attacks anyway. SJP already has hella lag upon hitting the ground and if you miss it you're probably going to eat a smash attack as is, and his up throw doesn't combo into anything.

Luigi's down smash hits on both sides and has the longest range. It would be a valid nerf to me. I'm pretty sure every character needs a down smash.

 

[LancerStaff]

You don't nerf a character by making laggy, niche moves laggier... You nerf a character either by nerfing their best options or making their weaknesses more meaningful.

Luigi deserved what he got.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You don't nerf a character by making laggy, niche moves laggier... You nerf a character either by nerfing their best options or making their weaknesses more meaningful.

Luigi deserved what he got.

You nerf a character by nerfing something that's worth nerfing, which they did with the Cyclone. The down throw was taking it too far.

Luigi's down smash hits on both sides and has the longest range. It would be a valid nerf to me. I'm pretty sure every character needs a down smash.

it's not like Luigi's range is incredible. You could go whole matches without using Luigi's down smash. Up smash covers both sides, has invincibility, and kills earlier than down smash. Not to mention it's safer on shield. There's no point in nerfing what was probably Luigi's worst move.

 

[LancerStaff]

Mm, I don't think so. He's 15th on the official tier list right?

Objectively speaking, anybody above average can take a nerf. Objectively, nerfing the 10th best down to 40th would make for a more balanced game outside of leaving another character unchecked.

 

[Green L]

You don't nerf a character by making laggy, niche moves laggier... You nerf a character either by nerfing their best options or making their weaknesses more meaningful.

Luigi deserved what he got

You're partially right. Luigi was a solid character pre patch but they should have nerfed his traction too. If luigi's weaknesses didn't matter then he'd be the undisputed best character in the game

You don't nerf a character by making laggy, niche moves laggier... You nerf a character either by nerfing their best options or making their weaknesses more meaningful.

Luigi deserved what he got

You're partially right. Luigi was a solid character pre patch but they should have nerfed his traction too. If luigi's weaknesses didn't matter then he'd be the undisputed best character in the game. Luigi nerfed into a worse mario isn't balance that just makes Luigi straight up worse than mario in almost every way.

 

[Dr. Bread]

nerfs that bother me are basically most nerfs post-wii u(disregarding universal changes and indirect nerfs, fixes aside)

even diddy kong, even luigi. I dont actually find that nerfs have made the game much more balanced, and in retrospect they mostly just helped the community move on instead of focusing on fotm characters.

i mean yeah there's some changes im fine with, like getting rid of fox's jab chains, since they pretty much only worked if your character didn't have the frame data to break out(weren't polite enough to give him a buff on the side or anything tho)

but yeah i feel like most of the nerfs just turned high tier characters into... high tier characters who are slightly worse(unless your name is green mario. RIP). and also made people stop complaining about them which is valuable, but only in the short-term.

Not sure if anyone else feels this way, but we can at least agree that plenty of characters got nerfed when they did things which other characters are still out there doing and still being called 'cheap' for.

 

[WinterShorts]

Nerfs that bug me? OK, I main Yoshi. Let's see what changes there are.

• Trip Followup:
  • Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
  • Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
  • Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
• Trip Invincibility:
  • Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
  • Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F

OUCH. SUCH NERF. MUCH LOSS. DOOMED FOR ETERNITY. NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN IN TOURNAMENTS. YOSHI NOW J-TIER. CONFIRMED WORSE THAN ZELDA. THE PAIN IS TOO REAL!

 

[Dr. Bread]

Nerfs that bug me? OK, I main Yoshi. Let's see what changes there are.

• Trip Followup:
  • Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
  • Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
  • Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
• Trip Invincibility:
  • Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
  • Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F

OUCH. SUCH NERF. MUCH LOSS. DOOMED FOR ETERNITY. NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN IN TOURNAMENTS. YOSHI NOW J-TIER. CONFIRMED WORSE THAN ZELDA. THE PAIN IS TOO REAL!

how do you know this is a nerf?

 

[Yoshister]

how do you know this is a nerf?

Because Yoshi has less invincibility during his get-up animations now.

Can he even get up safely at this point?!

 

[Furret24]

All those nerfs that accomplished nothing. If you're going to nerf a character, atleast make it meaningful. Lowering a character's weight by 1 unit isn't going to accomplish anything, nor will decreasing the KBG of a move by 2.

I also hate the unnecessary nerf to 's utilt. He was already bad back then, why did they nerf him more?

The unnecessary Yoshi nerfs are rather annoying too.

 

[Jexulus]

From a strictly casual standpoint, changing all the potential suicide moves (Flying Slam, etc.) to where the initiator loses first except for Ganondorf, for some reason. It's really more the inconsistency than the actual nerfs themselves, because Flying Slam has been compensated in the meantime.

Lucario's insane landing lag from his Up-B is really baffling. I can barely play Lucario now because it feels extremely unnatural whenever I land with that thing.

Marth's transition between games makes him feel way more sluggish than in Brawl. Somehow.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lucario's insane landing lag from his Up-B is really baffling. I can barely play Lucario now because it feels extremely unnatural whenever I land with that thing.

It was pretty abusive before because Lucario could recover for free when the lag was low. Basically just arc over the opponent and land on the stage while sliding away in minimal endlag.

The lag's probably so high now so characters like Dorf and Robin could catch up.

 

[GeflGabe]

's speed nerfs. Man do I miss his melee + brawl speed, he isn't as fast as he was in those games and it really bugs me when I'm playing and trying to find new possible combos. It's like the nerfs are always there just to laugh at me for not being able to use the old double F air short hop.

 

[Furret24]

's speed nerfs. Man do I miss his melee + brawl speed, he isn't as fast as he was in those games and it really bugs me when I'm playing and trying to find new possible combos. It's like the nerfs are always there just to laugh at me for not being able to use the old double F air short hop.

Marth's slightly faster in this game actually.

 

[Runic_SSB]

"Hey, has a broken chaingrab. Let's cut off half his arm, take away his best move, make his dair unusable so he's helpless against juggling, make his projectile reflectable by almost any move in the game, and neuter any of his kill moves with less than 200 frames of startup, even though the chaingrab thing was already was fixed by a universal change, and the removal of momentum/hitstun cancelling is already an extreme nerf to him. Anyway, onto . Now, it's ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that we only make changes that are logical and necessary, and not just arbitrarily pile on nerfs."

From a strictly casual standpoint, changing all the potential suicide moves (Flying Slam, etc.) to where the initiator loses first except for Ganondorf, for some reason. It's really more the inconsistency than the actual nerfs themselves, because Flying Slam has been compensated in the meantime.

That's because Ganondorf's suicide move makes him helpless, while the others don't. Failing a suicide move with any other character doesn't have much of a drawback, but for Ganon, it (usually) means death.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I remember being really interested in Greninja after watching his trailer and the 3DS version first came out.
And then we all know what happened to Greninja. I loved playing around with him prior to his infamous nerfing, but after it... he really wasn't fun anymore. Even though he got some buffs, it wasn't enough to make me pick up the ninja frog again. I don't even touch him these days.
And I'm also one of those people who absolutely loved Marth in Melee and Brawl... and absolutely hate how he plays in Smash 4. The biggest reason why I loved playing him, his range and fun combos, were pretty much gone. Even after his buffs, I can't let go of his loss of range.
But when Roy came out as DLC, I surprisingly loved playing as him (and found him to be a lot more fun/better than SSB4 Marth), so there's one plus.
I'm grateful that my two major mains now, Ness and Peach, haven't been significantly nerfed in any way.

I just wish that they didn't take greninja out back and break his arms and legs, now all of his hitboxes miss. He was the reason I got the game, and on the 3ds version I was so hype it was just silly for a young adult. I tried him out for a few months but it just wasn't working out, now he has to work so hard for little reward.

I've stuck to Greninja since the beginning and found him consistently fun and still a powerful character (maybe too powerful)... but then, I only play For Glory and never really messed around with things like Shadow Sneak air-lag cancels and combos before they were nerfed, so that may not count for much. xD

 

[Lag Chan]

Just found out today Dedede got nerfed again in the patch. Little late to the party but wow, they really don't want him to be a good character in this game it seems. At least he'll always be top tier in the Free for All tier lists!!

*cries*

 

[Deleted member]

Dedede getting his air speed nerfed in the latest patch is absolutely mother****ing stupid and a kick in the balls for every Dedede main out there. He already has the worst air speed in the game, why make it worse? It's stuff like this that finally made me drop him.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Dedede getting his air speed nerfed in the latest patch is absolutely mother****ing stupid and a kick in the balls for every Dedede main out there. He already has the worst air speed in the game, why make it worse? It's stuff like this that finally made me drop him.

Wait, wait, wait, Dedede get nerfed?! I tough he recieve nothing!
WTF Nintendo?!

 

[MockRock]

I think that a lot of the nerfs in this game have actually been pretty good (the buffs are a bit sketchier). One thing that I really, really don't like, though, is the fact that they nerfed Bowser's throw immediately after buffing it. It might even have been an error that it was so good in the first place, but it was a property that Bowser desperately needed to help him out. It pushed him up the tier list without making him broken, it fit his aesthetic as a ground-based brawler so well... sigh.

 

[Green L]

One thing that I really, really don't like, though, is the fact that they nerfed Bowser's throw immediately after buffing it. It might even have been an error that it was so good in the first place, but it was a property that Bowser desperately needed to help him out. It pushed him up the tier list without making him broken, it fit his aesthetic as a ground-based brawler so well... sigh.

Bowser was turned into an up throw simulator. They should have nerfed it harder in my opinion. I'd rather see bowser buffed in several areas instead of just one more. Seriously bowser is the biggest one trick pony in smash history. Besides, they buffed his dash attack yet you didn't mention that.

 

[Nysyr]

20-30 extra frames of endlag to extremespeed in the wii-u release was pretty stupid, along with lucario's fsmash and dsmash getting more end lag (because they literally balanced based on For Glory at the time).

It was pretty abusive before because Lucario could recover for free when the lag was low. Basically just arc over the opponent and land on the stage while sliding away in minimal endlag.

The lag's probably so high now so characters like Dorf and Robin could catch up.

The move had enough startup and travel time that you can intercept it with every character not named Ganon/Robin lol. It was still 30-40 frames or w/e (aka longer than Bayo after full combo lmfao).

Its also like the easiest bar non-snaps and maybe falcon's to two frame.

Edit: Also recovering on right side of Battlefield with it is absolute cancer.

 

[Furret24]

Bowser was turned into an up throw simulator. They should have nerfed it harder in my opinion. I'd rather see bowser buffed in several areas instead of just one more. Seriously bowser is the biggest one trick pony in smash history. Besides, they buffed his dash attack yet you didn't mention that.

Said the Luigi main. ;P

 

[apparently fuz]

Luigi getting his easybake combos and fireballs nerfed yet they introduced a character called Cloud Strife into the game which pretty much does the exact same thing but better.

 

[SeanS]

The long history of G&W nerfs - from the various nerfs from Brawl, to the completely unnecessary utilt change, to the shield stun patch, to the multiple bucket nerfs that went against the original intention of the character's design - are totally unforgivable and indicative of incompetent, uncaring game design.

Nerfing a welcome change on Bowser after he finally was beginning to make up for his pathetic inability to land was silly and unrequested.

The nerfing of every noteworthy doubles strategy to reduce teamwork in its meta, immediately followed by the introduction of Cloud and his Down B, was an objectively ******** design choice and a literal, inarguable case of a developer centralizing a game's meta in a totally undesirable way.

The shield stun patch, which emphasized the addition of base shield stun to every attack instead of exclusively emphasizing attack damage as a factor, favored top tiers almost exclusively to the detriment of most mid and low tiers, allowing for an even greater ability to camp with quick, safe attacks with the intention of forcing out exploitable behavior. It also ruined hours of practiced punishes and altered a ton of matchups on the fly.

The emphasis on reducing the damage and knockback dealt by safe characters instead of the actual safety of their moves (e.g. Diddy, Luigi) changed too little about how these characters worked and actively prolongs the amount of match time required at all levels of play.

The total change of the DI system after release, regardless of whether it was good for the game or not (there was hardly time to tell, to be honest), had a similarly monumental effect on the game and ruined hours of practice for many, all while buffing and nerfing various characters overnight with effects that very few predicted or even understand right now.

And the buffs to various characters existing without commensurate buffs to characters that really needed it - the worst cases being Zelda and Jigglypuff - is utterly indicative of character favoritism, stupidity, selective fanbase neglection, an arguable focus on character DLC profits, or some combination of the aforementioned.

I really hate being right about this, because this game had a lot of wasted potential with the patch system.

 

[TurboLink]

Link's jab nerf. He lost his most reliable kill confirm. "Say hello to the unviable tier for the fourth time my boy Link," is what I should've thought when that happened. But no, I had hope that the patches would improve him and he would finally end up viable for once. Long story short, I was wrong.

 

[Green L]

Said the Luigi main. ;P

I know Luigi relies on grabs too and is alot worse of a character now but at least luigi was always capable of more than just grabs. Luigi is a poorly designed character to me but bowser is only a threat because of up throw. Without up throw, this one move, bowser sucks.

 

[L9999]

The balance team has no idea what it is doing, period. existence just proves it. Limit Cross Slash is the most broken move in the game. Fast, kills you really early, eats shields, cannot be dodged, has 0 ending lag so even if you shield the whole thing Cloud can just attack you again, and it creates a really nasty ledge trap. invalidates Finishing Touch's gimmick by it's sole existence. So Cloud has autocancellable aerials with that much range, whilestill has his butchered autocancels, having no good autocancels being so weak, and having no autocancels at all. also has aerial safety too, he doesn't give a damn about your shield. "But his recovery sucks" Yeah, good luck getting him offstage. Ah! And his recovery has a hitbox that protects him on the way up, and he can snap the ledge with certain inputs. And good luck hitting him on the way up without a disjoint. Cloud's mobility is good as well, so he might just come back jumping. He also has Side B to stall (why the hell they nerfed it?! ) so Cloud isn't free offstage like say.... If he was, Cloud would be slightly tolerable. "His throws suck, he has no throw combos" Yes he has, it is called Throw to charging Limit, and due to how much you shield to prevent getting murdered by his aerials, Cloud is going to grab you all the time and throw you out, then he kills you with Limit Side B. got his Dair lingering hitbox nerfed, let's give a much more lingering one! will surely like it! must not have a juggle long ranged killing Uair, but let's give because why not? Let's make really fast in every aspect while dies in his sluggishness. makes no sense.

 

[TurboLink]

The balance team has no idea what it is doing, period. existence just proves it. Limit Cross Slash is the most broken move in the game. Fast, kills you really early, eats shields, cannot be dodged, has 0 ending lag so even if you shield the whole thing Cloud can just attack you again, and it creates a really nasty ledge trap. invalidates Finishing Touch's gimmick by it's sole existence. So Cloud has autocancellable aerials with that much range, whilestill has his butchered autocancels, having no good autocancels being so weak, and having no autocancels at all. also has aerial safety too, he doesn't give a damn about your shield. "But his recovery sucks" Yeah, good luck getting him offstage. Ah! And his recovery has a hitbox that protects him on the way up, and he can snap the ledge with certain inputs. And good luck hitting him on the way up without a disjoint. Cloud's mobility is good as well, so he might just come back jumping. He also has Side B to stall (why the hell they nerfed it?! ) so Cloud isn't free offstage like say.... If he was, Cloud would be slightly tolerable. "His throws suck, he has no throw combos" Yes he has, it is called Throw to charging Limit, and due to how much you shield to prevent getting murdered by his aerials, Cloud is going to grab you all the time and throw you out, then he kills you with Limit Side B. got his Dair lingering hitbox nerfed, let's give a much more lingering one! will surely like it! must not have a juggle long ranged killing Uair, but let's give because why not? Let's make really fast in every aspect while dies in his sluggishness. makes no sense.

Wasn't Diddy's up air significantly stronger though?

 

[Green L]

Luigi could have used some nerfs that lower his power yet remain a threat instead of Mario 0.5. Nerf his back throw, down smash, up throw, add more landing lag to green missile and up b. Add more lag to his down and foward tilt. Make down tilt not trip anymore. Lower cyclone's grounded knockback, lower the knockback to the green missile fully charged.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Why, just why does Dedede need to be nerfed multiple times, including in the most recent patch. Even before the last patch, Dedede was bottom tier, and nobody would argue that he wasn't. Every other bottom tier (except for Jigglypuff but hey at least Jiggs hasn't been nerfed!) has at least gotten some attention, where even if they weren't made competitively viable at least their moves that weren't functioning properly got fixed. Guess what? Dedede has moves that don't function properly! People will randomly fall out of f-tilt, which has so much startup that you need to land all the hits that it does to make it worth. Bair and U-smash both have hitboxes that don't match the animation, where you can see Dedede's hammer clipping through another character, and nothing happens. When you catch gordo when it is hit back at you, it's lifespan doesn't reset, you can't change it's trajectory, and it doesn't do full damage. That is ridiculous considering how long the gordo toss animation is.

Can someone please tell me why King Dedede's Fair does less damage, his air speed has been decreased, and now gordo gets reflected by any move dealing 2% as opposed to launch? WHY WOULD YOU EVER NERF A BOTTOM TIER?

Also these charactersexist in the same game as these characters. Anyone else see a disparity here?

 

[randomguy1235]

Why, just why does Dedede need to be nerfed multiple times, including in the most recent patch. Even before the last patch, Dedede was bottom tier, and nobody would argue that he wasn't. Every other bottom tier (except for Jigglypuff but hey at least Jiggs hasn't been nerfed!) has at least gotten some attention, where even if they weren't made competitively viable at least their moves that weren't functioning properly got fixed. Guess what? Dedede has moves that don't function properly! People will randomly fall out of f-tilt, which has so much startup that you need to land all the hits that it does to make it worth. Bair and U-smash both have hitboxes that don't match the animation, where you can see Dedede's hammer clipping through another character, and nothing happens. When you catch gordo when it is hit back at you, it's lifespan doesn't reset, you can't change it's trajectory, and it doesn't do full damage. That is ridiculous considering how long the gordo toss animation is.

Can someone please tell me why King Dedede's Fair does less damage, his air speed has been decreased, and now gordo gets reflected by any move dealing 2% as opposed to launch? WHY WOULD YOU EVER NERF A BOTTOM TIER?

Also these charactersexist in the same game as these characters. Anyone else see a disparity here?

The dev team has proven their incompetence regarding balance for four Smash Bros iterations, so I'm frankly not surprised. It's truly sad for me because D3 and Ganondorf are my favorite characters so I can't move away from them

 

[GerudoKong]

Really dislike the added sourspot to Doc's Fair (wasn't in melee). Its already a really hard move to land, it doesn't need that kind of hindrance.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Really dislike the added sourspot to Doc's Fair (wasn't in melee). Its already a really hard move to land, it doesn't need that kind of hindrance.

That and making his up air useless by giving it high base knockback with not enough growth to KO and an angle that's really bad for combos, making his down air useless for comboing by giving it knockback and high landing lag, and giving his fsmash a sourspot at the tip even though it already has less range than Mario's.