Neon's Match-up Discussion

[G13_Flux]

try using magnet. if he gets too close, just jump and fair him. or you can approach him with it and DJC fair or PKF out of it. Its got a slight amount of absorb lag, and wont be the answer to all of you issues, but it will help you out in some key situations.

 

[Ness_STFU]

Yeah, if someone's going to exploit an approach over and over endlessly... sit and wait. Sit in Psi Mag, at least until he gets reasonably close, then approach. If he runs at you, be ready with utilt or grab.

On a side note, I hate people that have one broken mechanic that they exploit all day then complain when you don't run into it 99% of the time. PM Falco gets to laser because he's sooooo punishable off stage, but there are other characters that have perfect approaches that literally can't be stopped other than to run away and projectile them and also don't have any negatives to show in return for it. Intermediate players latch onto these techniques and they become like crutches. They get propelled to decent-player-status because it does win matches against low level players basically 100% of the time. When they lose because they're being super predictable and exploiting that one move over and over, they get uptight. It drives me nuts. I play Falco and get gimped off stage regularly and I don't think that someone is "playing super gay" because they try to exploit that weakness.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I actually got some of that when I fought a Link. I still don't know how to fight him, so to beat him I maintained space until I got a clean hit (PK Freeze, Magnet Pull > Dair) He said I "played gay as s***"

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to win a match... So long as it doesn't involve excessive stalling or glitches.

 

[NeonApophis]

there are other characters that have perfect approaches that literally can't be stopped other than to run away and projectile them and also don't have any negatives to show in return for it.

This does not seem very true.

 

[_slydz]

I think it's more accurate to say that some characters have approaches that require a much lower skill level to perform than the skill level needed to counter their approach without spamming projectiles/camping/playing "gay"

 

[chrome12345]

I was thinking in my head today that maybe you can use magnet to float above Falco's SHL's; kind of like how marth players will sometimes use the first strike of dancing blade to push themselves a little higher as a mix up. You could use it, as a mixup, to float in the zone between falco's SHL and his full jump laser. From there, you could jump cancel the magnet to Nair, Fair, Dair, or PK Freeze. Obviously, this would be for stages with less platforms.

 

[drummaniac28]

How does everyone feel about the Ivysaur matchup? I think Ivy's long range kinda shuts Lucas down hard, and that bair can gimp soooo easily. I'd say it's probably 70-30 in favor of Ivy

 

[Muck]

Pkf camp maybe?

 

[Inserio]

How does everyone feel about the Ivysaur matchup? I think Ivy's long range kinda shuts Lucas down hard, and that bair can gimp soooo easily. I'd say it's probably 70-30 in favor of Ivy

Definitely not 70-30. Just play smart. It's not always about going all in; I know it's easy to get into the habit of doing that as Lucas, because the combos are awesome. However, Lucas can gimp Ivy just as easily if you wait for the right moments.

 

[drummaniac28]

Is the best way to try and punish Ivy's recovery to grab the ledge and punish when they jump up from the tether or to try and bair or dair while they are pulling up from a tether?

 

[Inserio]

Normally if I have enough time to get to the ledge, I have enough time to RAR fast fall bair them into oblivion. D-throw into OU upsmash (DACUS if good DI) is a great finisher if he's right around 80% I think. I get most of my gimps with bair and upsmash.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

@ NeonApophis how do you fight Mk

 

[NeonApophis]

Don't get grabbed and don't let him get between you and the stage. Also don't drop combos.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

That sounds about right...

 

[Farkle the Oddly Shaped]

also be really smart about that tether recovery--MK's ledgedrop nair is nasty

 

[210stuna]

@ NeonApophis

Other than using Magnet, what other strategies do you use when using the tether to recover (especially against MK)?

 

[Burnsy]

I wish there was a comprehensive tutorial on tether cancelling because it seems like no one other than Neon and myself are aware of all of it's uses despite posting about it several times now to explain it's execution and usefullness in situations where you are being gimped off your tether.

 

[210stuna]

Click Z to to tether, and click down b to Magnet and surprise most ledge grabbers to their death (instead of clicking A)?

Or are you talking about re-tethering before leaving the edge when you reel in and jump to tether again?

 

[Burnsy]

No, I'm not talking about either. Being able to cancel your tether before reeling in leads to several other important possibilities, and down-b cannot be a catch-all choice when tether canceling to avoid gimps. If you want more info search for my posts on this forum that contain the term "tether cancel" in it.

 

[210stuna]

No, that's not what I'm talking about

Please tell me More?

 

[Burnsy]

I edited my post to explain better. You may look it up yourself, literally all I'd be doing is the same, I'm not going to re-write it because I explained it adequately in my older posts.

 

[TunNel]

I was wondering if we could discuss the Marth match up a bit. Neon said in an earlier post that he would make write up on the match up, but till then I wanted to see everyone's approach to it.
Lucas feels like the perfect combo weight for Marth, whether it be through grabs or bait/nairs, I just feel so helpless once he gets a hit in. The neutral game also feels a little weak to me. I have absolutely no idea to approach besides trying to spam pkf, but Marth always seems to just close the gap so quickly, pkf or not, and just negates the projectile & Lucas' mobility.

Thoughts & advice appreciated.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

From what I've found, the matchup goes like this:

PK Freeze can only be used once space is created, it cannot be used to ESTABLISH space, once Marth is at Midrange you either use it while running away or STOP using it, because once Marth is at that range Run up > Shield will more than likely punish you with a hit or a grab. In the matchup you have to play so you don't get grabbed (As Lucas you should aim to never get grabbed, really, but there are some where you should ACTIVELY AVOID it) this means working on pressure so you don't get grabbed and not doing unsafe, unnecessary moves/movement because Marth has a wicked grab. Once WE get a solid hit Marth is pretty helpless because his moves once in the air don't do a very solid job of protecting him.

It feels like to me that the MU is one where if you play carefully, you win, because Marth ends up being very vulnerable once he gets popped up and we're very vulnerable when grabbed. These are just observations and opinions from playing the MU myself, I'm still not terribly good with Lucas. I'm sure another will gladly chime in though.

 

[Kipcom]

I'm having the hardest time with both good Link AND Toon Link players.

It's pretty hard to approach either. Their usage of bombs, boomerang, and even arrows keep me distant. As I try to jump over these obstacles, I usually get intercepted in mid-air...Not to mention, I can't even use PK Freeze as a means of long distance damage, as the boomerangs just eat through it. Their projectiles also give them the chance to get to me, instead of me getting to them.

Basically, how can Lucas counter characters with a projectile game better than his? I have trouble getting in and I have trouble setting up for attacks against them.

 

[210stuna]

Basically, how can Lucas counter characters with a projectile game better than his? I have trouble getting in and I have trouble setting up for attacks against them.

DJC PKF, Magnet in air to mix up your fall speed or to go over projectiles, or learn to powershield better.

 

[TunNel]

DJC PKF, Magnet in air to mix up your fall speed or to go over projectiles, or learn to powershield better.

That didn't seem to properly answer his question at all 0,0

From what I've found, the matchup goes like this:

PK Freeze can only be used once space is created, it cannot be used to ESTABLISH space, once Marth is at Midrange you either use it while running away or STOP using it, because once Marth is at that range Run up > Shield will more than likely punish you with a hit or a grab. In the matchup you have to play so you don't get grabbed (As Lucas you should aim to never get grabbed, really, but there are some where you should ACTIVELY AVOID it) this means working on pressure so you don't get grabbed and not doing unsafe, unnecessary moves/movement because Marth has a wicked grab. Once WE get a solid hit Marth is pretty helpless because his moves once in the air don't do a very solid job of protecting him.

It feels like to me that the MU is one where if you play carefully, you win, because Marth ends up being very vulnerable once he gets popped up and we're very vulnerable when grabbed. These are just observations and opinions from playing the MU myself, I'm still not terribly good with Lucas. I'm sure another will gladly chime in though.

That makes a lot of sense. I do a lot of that in the MU, just blind pkf's to make space.
So would you say the best approach would be to simply bait and punish? Also, what map picks would you say are strongest vs a competent Marth.
Thanks in advance for the help Yars!

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Bait and punish is the best, as far as approach goes, you CAN use PKF to an extent, just not nearly as effectively as against some characters as far as approaching it with goes. Don't ever use two in a row, one will usually be enough for an approach.

As for stage picks, I pretty much just avoid stages good for Marth, stages like Wario Ware, Battlefield and Yoshi's. I really like FoD because low platforms give you something to tech on without putting you at tipper Fsmash height (usually) Otherwise, wide open stages I like against Marth.

 

[Kipcom]

DJC PKF, Magnet in air to mix up your fall speed or to go over projectiles, or learn to powershield better.

Well like I said, for every PKF I shoot, boomerang just eats through it. I usually DJC the PKF anyway.
Powrshielding is probably my next best option. I'll try to get the hang of that.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Magnet Pull I've found is a great tool to use in matchups where Neutral game stagnates into a projectile fight. Since you can jump fairly early and DJC you don't have to worry about a response if it looks like they have a good one. Practice utilizing PKF at varying heights and from different points in a jump, also learn the timing on kicking Projectiles with DJC Fair.

 

[210stuna]

I wasn't sure if you DJC the PKF that's why. Also I wasn't saying it's the best to use against all his projectiles like the bow and bombs, but it does help a bit.

Your next bet, as Yars said, woudl be to Fair the boomerang away. Whether that be through a short hop or DJC is up to you.

 

[NeonApophis]

I think this match is a pretty good demo on how to fight Fox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAI7hiYh-Go

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Love the combo extension PKF and using DSmash (This is my go to kill move against Fox) unless I'm worried he can angle Firefox for the ledge in which case I run down and Fair

 

[chrome12345]

I think this match is a pretty good demo on how to fight Fox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAI7hiYh-Go

Neon, how are you doing those ariel magnets so close to the ground when you approach? Is it just a super fast jump then magnet, or is it double jump canceled?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

If you aren't doing Magnet really low to the ground then I'd recommend trying to Magnet sooner, you can actually DownB pretty quickly. If you do it and are still on the ground you did it too soon.

 

[TunNel]

So I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on how they approaching the Ness/Link MUs. I've been having trouble with those specifically lately and it has a lot to do with the neutral game. Ness because of his insane chain grab on Lucas till like 70% and high priority aerials/disjoints and Link because of his free as **** boomerang.

 

[SSS]

Yo what do you guys think of Kirby?

 

[Inserio]

Yo what do you guys think of Kirby?

I was getting wrecked at this matchup until I stopped going all aggro and played defensively to start combos.

 

[Lukingordex]

I've heard some people think Link is Lucas' worst matchup, I also hate that MU too, really annoying and hard to approach.

Any opinions about this?

 

[Fortune]

I agree. I think Link is Lucas' worst matchup.

 

[Master WGS]

I have very little experience in the Link matchup, but I played a pretty solid one this weekend and got bodied. I'm beginning to agree with, maybe not the WORST matchup (I don't have enough experience with every other character to make that call), but definitely a very bad one.