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Need some help vs. Game and Watch (vids included)

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Match 1 and 2
Match 3

I played extremely crappy in the first match, I really don't know what happened there. I like to think that I did better in the second and third matches, but still nothing special.

So, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing too much? What aren't I doing (enough)?

Any help is appreciated. G&W's cause a lot of problems for me, there's quite a few good ones in my area. I wish I had some more vids to show, but this is all unfortunately!

Thanks in advance!
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
...

The beginning of your first match was...terrible. No offense, because I'm not that good either, but wow.

So I skipped to your second one and third. Let me "critique it:"

Second:

Start - You shouldn't have approached with the shield. Do fairs to make a wall, or you can go up and SH fair him, DI back and see the reaction. Take notice of how he reacts when you give him the opportunity to counterattack.

4:01 - You grabbed him, but should have Bthrow to Fsmash for quick percent instead of trying to mindgame some sort of pseudo-chaingrab. If you were try to edgeguard, what I told you would've worked too if it connects (normally does unless G&W max DIs away). Fthrow chain only works on fastfallers by the way.

All around now:

Just too much rolling. A lot of spot dodging too. If you're like me and practice on level 9 CPUs because you're a lonely guy in the middle of scrub central, at least try not to get bad habits from them (although I still retain a few as well to be honest).

Your spacing is like off. Like VietGeek versus Fox off. Yeah, really off.

The G&W match-up is all about spacing. Space yourself to be at tip range and Game & Watch will be at a disadvantage. Also, if you're below Game & Watch, expect Dair and you can Counter it, or shield it (mix it up) to Dolphin Slash or whatever. For his Bair, Smash DI upward and diagonally away so he whiffs the final hit which deals the knockback.

Don't use Shield Breaker too much. Especially not as an edgeguard as most people will obviously just try to sweetspot the ledge and punish you. Excellent move, but situational. Same with Fsmash near the ledge.

Just learn to edgeguard better. Stick with tilts and safe poke moves away from their get-up attack range to bait them to do something else, to force a reaction. If you can foresee that reaction, you can punish it easily as well.

You need to use your aerials more. Dancing Blade is not an approach move. It is a move to end off chains or to punish with. Use fair as it out ranges most of GameWatch's arsenal and it provides a great wall.

Game & Watch loves aerials naturally, feel free to use Ftilt as a giant vertical wall and Nair as an anti-air attack that discourages them from challenging you. Game and Watch is the lightest in the game IIRC, use the quickness and excellent knockback on Utilt to your advantage. If you force him to the ground, you can try using Dsmash as a finisher. Excellent smash to get off since it's a vertical KO move, but totally unsafe on block.

Of course use Dtilt to complete your wall. Use its IASA frames to change into a shield, roll, aerial, B-move, whatever. It's magical.

You can grab release Game and Watch by not over-jabbing them to force a jump break, then do a fullhop Fair. Timing is kinda peculiar, but similar to Meta Knight's.

Oh, and a tidbit of useless knowledge you won't ever use:

If Game and Watch like to just land on stage with U+B, if you grab him before he touches the ground, it achieves the same effect as it does on Snake, Sonic, and a few others. Impossible to do almost, but whatever.

I'll make this simple:

Mix up your attacks. Fsmash, Dancing Blade, Fair and Nair are not the only effective moves.

Killing G&W vertically is key. Don't be afraid to try DB upwards, Utilt, Uair, or Usmash if you catch them above you.

Learn to set-up from your grabs.

Set-up walls for G&W to overcome, and if you approach, use Fair.

Learn to not roll and spotdodge too much. Try to play without trying to use it at all. ****, download Ocarina and play as an Alloy and it teach you the basics. =P

That Game & Watch reminds me of Lv.99's before he quit GW. Predictable but only because his staple moves are so good. Learn the match-up in and out, especially the range of G&W's attacks. Since there's apparently a lot of GW's in your area, it'll be beneficial to you.

Also, if he Usmashes, don't be afraid to SH Counter at him, if he's within the vicinity and you're positive of it anyway. <_<
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
6,289
Location
Teaneck, North Bergen County, NJ, USA
3DS FC
1993-9028-0439
Eh, Viet beat me to it, but I can also say that SHIELD BREAKER IS NOT A VIABLE EDGEGUARD.

Furthermore, you Smash WAY too much. Many people complain about Marth being stale because Fair is overused. Like you, I prefer Dancing Blade, but you should Fair a lot more . . . and Dtilt.
 

SummerObsession

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
109
Location
Brooklyn, NY
You Fsmash WAY too much. It got so weak you couldnt kill with it even though he was at 100%, while he killed you with his Dsmash at only 90%. You should rarely use Fsmash to punish a mistake they make , it comes out TOO SLOW, in 10 frames I believe and it takes a while for the swing to even reach the enemy, so if you try to punish with Fsmash they will block and you will get punished. Try punishing with DB. If you did that your Fsmash would be at full power when needed.

He dodged alot and let you approach, where in which he just dodged and punished you. He's a dodge spammer so use DB more. He also waited for you to approach then Dsmashed. try staying outside his Dsmash and doing a shieldbreaker every now and then.

To be honest this G&W wasnt even good, he didn't know how to space his attacks at all. When he turtled he moved right into your grab range and he didn't spam smashes enough. You just need more practice against G and W. Counter is very helpful in this match up. Play more G and W and get a have a feeling to when to do a counter. It is very helpful against his smashes and turtle. When he was on the ledge you were too close which allowed him to Fair you. Move farther away from the ledge or try countering when he Fairs onto the stage.

Fair dosen't work too well, as a approach his Turtle and SMASHES beat your fair. Nothing is worse then jumping into a Fsmash. You got to make him attack and react and punish his mistakes and not let him dodge and counter you.
 

ZHMT

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,851
Location
Tampa, Florida
NNID
zeeehmtee
Well, as everyone else said to Fsmash less, DB more. Im gonna agree just for reinforcement lol.

Otherwise, you can basically camp the game against gaw. His projectiles arent good at all really and if you just take your time youll do a lot better.

Also, Use your dtilt more, its one of Marths best moves, just dont spam it. Use SH fairs as a means of approach, dont run in and fsmash or even grab against a gaw.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
I have one thing that nobody else said... predictability. At a certain point during the last match, he just got your pattern down pat, and was able to punish EVERYTHING you did. You need to change it up more, do unexpected thing.

Recognize what moves and techniques you use and then switch them up, because you were ahead, then suddenly you just lost. That shouldn't happen.


Beyond that, what everyone else said. Dtilts, ftilts, fsmash less, spacing, roll less, etc.
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Wow, thanks for the help everyone! From what I gathered, I should use more fairs, dtilts/ftilts and less sheildbreaker and fsmashes. I've already improved my spacing game since that match (it was like 2 weeks ago), but I've still got a long way to go.


Just too much rolling. A lot of spot dodging too. If you're like me and practice on level 9 CPUs because you're a lonely guy in the middle of scrub central, at least try not to get bad habits from them (although I still retain a few as well to be honest).
LOL, that's so me. Luckily, starting today, I'll be attending casuals every Wednesday and Sunday with the best in my area, so I'll be able to actually practice with some good people instead of level 9 CPU's.
 

Marteh

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
1,456
Location
Perth, aka DI Central
NNID
Marteh
The main problem I've found versing game and watch is his smash attacks are extremely sudden and can get you without knowing it. Against G+W timing is everything, considering things like his Up B can stop a dair quickly. Just pace yourself and never try and go for to long combos, or he'll break them usually.
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
You can DI out of Game and Watch's Bair and attack him before the move finishes.
 

3xSwords

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,193
Location
Bergen County
Just want to say that G&W fails at sweet spotting that ledge unless he was doing that on purpose. Had some nice moments in punishing and some bad ones. Learn which punishment is suitable for each situation.

Like when punishing bair, DB, grabbing, and DS all good. But when punishing landing lag of G&W's fair use u-smash instead of grab or DB to maximize damage given. Also more DS OOS if VietGeek mentioned anything i said srry b/c i am not reading tat wall of text.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
Also more DS OOS if VietGeek mentioned anything i said srry b/c i am not reading tat wall of text.
>_>

When I first read that, I thought:

"Is he telling Anth0ny to use Dolphin Slash out of state? As some sort of transportation?"

Saving the environment, one Up+B at a time.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

The Internet is confusing, I know.

Anyway, what I've said pretty much nails it down. If you have anything new for us to critique, I'll watch it probably. No more walls of text since I'm back in school now. =(
 
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