Need serious help on making/finding good GC controllers

[o0silentshadow0o]

So I built a controller a while back, and it was everything I wanted, it shield dropped very well, jump canceled great, the buttons felt soft (personal preference, it let's me put out in-puts faster), and over all it felt amazing. But recently I have been fearing that in the next 6-10 months, it will start to wear down.

Which leads me here, I need to salvage parts from other controllers so I can build a new one, so my question is where? I know that it's luck when it comes to finding a good control stick, but where should I invest my money? Should I buy those new Original Gamecube controllers ($50), or the new Smash 4 controllers where you can find at gamestop ($25-$30), or should I go all out and buy the older controllers in brand new conditions ($80-$100).

I heard that the smash 4 controllers, and the new Original white controllers are the same thing, except with a different shell, but I don't know if that is true. And if they are not the same, which one has a better control stick, because a controller that can Shield Drop well is a huge deal for me.

So if any of you know anything on this, please let me know, I would really appreciate it.

 

[Sudoi]

Well, it depends really. I recommend first going to places where you might find one for dirt cheap - Garage Sales, Pawn Shops, etc. You won't find the best controllers there, but you might be able to find one that has, the best Analog Stick you've seen in years, right?

My advice, Shop cheap, Look small. You might have to mix and match a lot of parts to make a good controller again, and that's fine, as long as you're getting them cheap.

As for the new controllers, I didn't really like the Stick, or the Triggers. It's personal preference, but who knows, maybe you'll like them?

I still have my old controller from about `04, and it works, although, I REALLY should clean it. /:

TL;DR Buy dirt cheap controllers with a couple good parts.

 

[-ACE-]

This is my opinion. I've had at least 20+ controllers in my smash "career" at this point.

If your controller is sensitive to back dashes and pivots, you want to hang onto it and replace sticks and such. If it shield drops well via the axe method, that's another reason to keep the controller and also the front piece. No 2 front pieces have the octagon gate in the exact same position (although if they are the same exact model they will be basically exactly the same), so the position of the SE/SW notches of the gate, which are crucial to shield dropping with that method, can vary.

sm4sh controllers ($22 Amazon) = springy buttons, tight/springy control stick, clunky/springy R/L triggers, usually good for shield dropping on both sides (I'd say roughly 2/3 can do it), and capable of back dashes/pivots, but few have a high (favorable) dash sensitivity.

The 2008 JP white controllers go for 30-40 used and $65ish new. Probably the best shield drop rate, and back dashes/pivots are similar to sm4sh controllers. Everything else is great.

Used silver controllers ($15-25 used) have the best dash sensitivity in my experience, making them usually the best for pivots and back dashes. Shield drop rate is less guaranteed than the new white ones. Finding one that shield drops on both sides is not really uncommon, but finding one that shield drops for free on one side and requires much more precision on the other is more common. And you may have some buttons that aren't springy like a brand new controller, but you can replace the rubber between the buttons and the circuit board to restore the "springiness" if need be. These controllers usually have perfect R/L triggers that do not require much force for a full press. The control stick is less springy and will have slightly more play in the neutral position, feeling more broken in than new white controllers, but this usually doesn't hurt anything.

Other ones like purple, old black, indigo, orange... It's a mixed bag. Some are great and some aren't. And although the feel of control sticks vary, ANY controller could be susceptible to kicking out an up input when you hit down and let go, allowing it to spring back.

Since luck is involved I try to find a good price (buying an expensive controller doesn't guarantee it's great), and usually I can get a used (NOT used by a smasher) silver one for under $20 after shipping. My current controller is one of these, and it's near perfect for $17.

I recently got a cube with all cords in perfect condition, 6 games, 2 memory cards, a like-new silver controller, and official nintendo carrying cases for the cube and the games, all for $60. Ebay baby! Buy from the US, from people with 99-100% feedback ratings. Many offer returns. Good luck.

 

[o0silentshadow0o]

Hey! :D

Thank you so much, you guys have been great! I am very appreciative for your long detailed answers . But now I have one more question, so I was browsing online, and I saw you can buy parts individually. Like here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6x-Analog-J...015095?hash=item2101f8fab7:g:wMUAAOSwyQtV7AJT

So what do you guys think of that? It's super cheap, and I get multiple of them. Also if this is a good idea, how am I suppose to attach them to my circuit board, do I need to attach the wires directly? Or is it just as simple as screwing it in?

 

[-ACE-]

Hey! :D

Thank you so much, you guys have been great! I am very appreciative for your long detailed answers . But now I have one more question, so I was browsing online, and I saw you can buy parts individually. Like here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6x-Analog-J...015095?hash=item2101f8fab7:g:wMUAAOSwyQtV7AJT

So what do you guys think of that? It's super cheap, and I get multiple of them. Also if this is a good idea, how am I suppose to attach them to my circuit board, do I need to attach the wires directly? Or is it just as simple as screwing it in?

I saw those recently. I'm not familiar enough with replacing stick boxes. Placing the box in the perfect position is undoubtedly paramount to having easy shield drops, I just don't know how easy it is to do (for all I know it snaps in like a Lego and that's it). I'd also recommend looking for official Nintendo ones. Kadano is probably the only person who frequents melee discussion that would know.

 

[Sudoi]

I saw those recently. I'm not familiar enough with replacing stick boxes. Placing the box in the perfect position is undoubtedly paramount to having easy shield drops, I just don't know how easy it is to do (for all I know it snaps in like a Lego and that's it). I'd also recommend looking for official Nintendo ones. Kadano is probably the only person who frequents melee discussion that would know.

Yeah, Kadano knows his **** when it comes to this, ask him!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont think its possible to position the stick box any differently without making modifications to the controller motherboard. The way it goes in is the only way it goes in, no wiggle room.

You can make notches in your controller to compensate though. This video explains it. Basically you modify the 225° notch (down and left/right) so that its natural resting position is within the shield drop range.

And to elaborate a little, this is not a bad thing and should probably be done with every new controller. Some controllers naturally have the 225° notch within the shield drop range, some don't.

With no modifications, my clear front controller has the down-left notch perfectly in the shield drop range, but the down-right notch is far out of whack. This made it very difficult for me to shield drop right, but I could do it 100% consistently to the left. And it was entirely the controller's fault.


That being said, I dont find much difference in control sticks between controller generations (each stick is unique of course), but the new Smash 4 controllers have notoriously bad triggers. All you should need to do with a new Smash 4 controller is swap off the back plate (for new triggers) and correct your shield drop notches.

 

[-ACE-]

That's bad luck sveet, most sm4sh controllers will shield drop on both sides. Unfortunately you got one of the ones where the gate is slightly off rotation (probably like half a degree), which screws up one side and makes the other side insanely easy (sadly those are common too). Also, Crimson Blur said during the g3 stream that the vast majority of major TO's believe adding notches to the gate should be banned, so it might not be good to have that as a crutch.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why should it be banned?

Do the TOs expect the players to spend hundreds of dollars until they get lucky with a perfect control stick box? Do they think its fair for some players to have a natural advantage on others?

On the other hand, the modification can be done simply and cheaply at home by anyone. It is essentially calibrating the controller. With this knowledge, anyone can have their controller work correctly and consistently.

 

[-ACE-]

spend hundreds of dollars until they get lucky with a perfect control stick box?

Are you serious? Talk about bad luck. For $100, you could get 4 brand new sm4sh controllers, or 6 like-new used silver ones. Are you assuming all of those controllers are going to be bad? Lol.

I'm not debating the notch issue, there's another thread for that that doesn't need to be necro'd.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have bought 4-5 controllers in the last year, and using Magus' software to check the controller inputs, none of them are perfect.

There are 3 values that can trigger a shield drop (increments of 0.0125). They are -0.6625, -0.6750, and -0.6875. All smash 4 controllers I have purchased have their corner notches at -0.7000 which means they will always spotdodge instead of shield drop. By modifying the notch, I can make my controller function correctly.

So either I am extremely unlucky, or the vast majority of controllers in production are not calibrated properly. Why would tournament organizers prevent the players from making their controller function correctly?

edit- and I make this argument as a TO. Seems completely pointless to ban. It does not give any unfair benefits, it just makes your controller work properly.

 

[-ACE-]

The only explanation is I am the luckiest man alive. I'm now going to pick luigi and expect 10 consecutive misfires.

Lol. Like I said though, I'm not debating the notch issue. You can read the thread made by massive for further insight on that issue.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Link ?

 

[o0silentshadow0o]

I have bought 4-5 controllers in the last year, and using Magus' software to check the controller inputs, none of them are perfect.

There are 3 values that can trigger a shield drop (increments of 0.0125). They are -0.6625, -0.6750, and -0.6875. All smash 4 controllers I have purchased have their corner notches at -0.7000 which means they will always spotdodge instead of shield drop. By modifying the notch, I can make my controller function correctly.

So either I am extremely unlucky, or the vast majority of controllers in production are not calibrated properly. Why would tournament organizers prevent the players from making their controller function correctly?

edit- and I make this argument as a TO. Seems completely pointless to ban. It does not give any unfair benefits, it just makes your controller work properly.

In my view making notches on controllers gives an unfair advantage to players who don't use these modification. It take away the effort into learning many techniques, instead players can simply make custom notches and rely on that.

Don't get me wrong it is a problem that players have to spend an unfair amount of money to get the controller they desire. But making notches is not the solution, you got to understand that even though your intentions for this idea is good,many and I mean many other players will exploit this notion, turning this originally good idea into something horrible.

Maybe the solution to this is buying the parts separately since it's cheap, or maybe even in the future have a program that can re-calibrate your controller, but not making notches.

 

[-ACE-]

Link ?

http://smashboards.com/threads/modded-controllers-in-tournaments.423634/#post-20463311

Warning: upon reading this you may hate me more than you already do lolol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In my view making notches on controllers gives an unfair advantage to players who don't use these modification. It take away the effort into learning many techniques, instead players can simply make custom notches and rely on that.

Don't get me wrong it is a problem that players have to spend an unfair amount of money to get the controller they desire. But making notches is not the solution, you got to understand that even though your intentions for this idea is good,many and I mean many other players will exploit this notion, turning this originally good idea into something horrible.

Maybe the solution to this is buying the parts separately since it's cheap, or maybe even in the future have a program that can re-calibrate your controller, but not making notches.

There is no unfair advantage from a notch. This isn't a macro, it does none of the work for you. I could give my controller to anyone else and they wouldn't magically become better players. All it does is allow every controller to be competitively viable, instead of expecting players to purchase hundreds of dollars in controllers until they get lucky (and they probably wont ever get lucky with a sm4sh controller).

 

[-ACE-]

There is no unfair advantage from a notch. This isn't a macro, it does none of the work for you. I could give my controller to anyone else and they wouldn't magically become better players. All it does is allow every controller to be competitively viable, instead of expecting players to purchase hundreds of dollars in controllers until they get lucky (and they probably wont ever get lucky with a sm4sh controller).

You'll soon find that the "it's not magic" argument is one of the most common points made by people that are for modifying the dynamic between the control stick and the gate. Unfortunately, everyone already knows this.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well for me, I played this game for 10+ years on non-modified controllers. Then on a whim I used magus' software and created a shield drop notch controller. Now I realize that my struggles for right direction shield drop was not my fault at all, but the controller's.

Why would TOs force players to use suboptimal controllers, when others are allowed to use perfect ones?


Sirlin defines fairness: "Fairness: Players of equal skill have a roughly equal chance at winning even though they might start the game with different sets of options / moves / characters / resources / etc."

Having controller notches does nothing unfair. It does not let players do anything they couldnt before, and it doesn't make their strategies any better. It simply makes the inputs they want to do happen consistently.

Notches are equivalent to removing the trigger spring, or plugging your controller in with the trigger pressed in. Neither of these things are banned, but I can see why old school players are against it. "I learned how to do it the hard way, so the new generation should have to, too! Or else they are lazy scrubs who are cheating to get good!"

 

[-ACE-]

Fortress | Sveet I linked the thread for you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

After reading that thread I am not worried. There is not enough support behind banning the modifications to ever see it happen. Plus all it does is even the playing field in the time of bad controllers. Sm4sh controllers are all improperly configured, so going forward the only way to have "good" controllers is to modify your controller to your liking. Its free, anyways, so who cares?

 

[-ACE-]

Sm4sh controllers are all improperly configured

Somehow the majority of the ones I've come across (over 10 since that thread) will shield drop on the right easily. Of the ones that weren't easy, most of them could still preform the tech with more accuracy (still going to the SW/SE notch, but with either outward or downward influence... Usually outward for sm4sh controllers). All would shield drop on the left easily. To each his own.

And I'm not concerned about how much support either side has. It looks like the major TO's have given the issue ample thought. Legality issues aren't always so cut and dry. There is an extremely slippery slope attached to that one.

 

[o0silentshadow0o]

When you guys say the controllers are not calibrated, is it because the controller is not centered right, or does the controller read your inputs with a slant?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Proper calibration would mean that the game registers one of the following Y values when moved to the down-right or down-left notches: -0.6625, -0.6750, -0.6875. If the controller registers -0.7000 or lower it will spotdodge, -0.6500 or higher and you will simply stay in shield. (note: the game reads the control stick in increments of 0.0125)

I do not test by trying to shield drop and guess at consistency. I load up Magus' software and read the exact input. None of the controllers I purchased in the last year have been perfectly calibrated. The two sm4sh controllers I've tested are naturally at -0.7000 which is very close to perfect, but a small adjustment to the notches was necessary. I tested 3 play-asia whites, and they were fine on the left side, but off by various margins on the right side. I also have my clear front controller (mobo was originally a play-asia) that was fine on the left, but reads -0.7500 on the right.

 

[-ACE-]

When you guys say the controllers are not calibrated, is it because the controller is not centered right, or does the controller read your inputs with a slant?

I honestly think it is due to an accidental rotation of the gate/stick box. Like if you rotated one of them 0.5 degrees and not the other. Not 100% sure, but I read that somewhere and it makes sense, as the ones that do not shield drop super easily on the right, in my experience, all pretty much have the same problem and the same solution tends to work. With these, I'll hold away as I slide to the notch, and you usually cannot slide to the notch super quickly. There is a perfect speed you have to find (you can't just roll down to the notch as fast as you can), but you can "buffer" the input ahead of time so that it'll work (drop asap, cant even see shield) in practical scenarios, although doing a FP pivot shield drop gravy-style in neutral is difficult. For all other shield drop applications, having to slide the stick ever so slightly slower doesn't really affect anything.

Fortress | Sveet I'm not arguing with the software, I'm just saying I have used plenty of sm4sh controllers that shield drop on both sides. Luckiest man alive.

 

[-ACE-]

I'll also add that changing the front piece makes a difference. I'm sure people know this (the fact that not every front piece has the exact same gate in the exact same spot) but no one really does it. I've put a silver front on a white back before and it shield dropped perfectly. I've also done it and killed my ability to shield drop. Lol.

 

[TheRealSkid]

I have had problems on my sm4sh controller with dashing in the opposite direction from which my character stands (I end up pivoting instead). For some reason my indigo clear one just does better with this sort of thing.
Does anyone else have this problem with their sm4sh controllers?

 

[Bones0]

Fortress | Sveet
What makes you think -0.7 isn't the desired alignment for controllers? I'm not saying it is, I'm just wondering because everyone seems to assume that shield dropping is supposed to be accessible via the notch but it seems just as likely that it is only supposed to be triggered below the 45 notches.

 

[-ACE-]

Controllers vary in almost every regard. Some flat out perfect wavedash easier than others, as if the sweetspot for this input is larger, requiring less accuracy. No explanation.

 

[o0silentshadow0o]

So I just did some research, and what I found is crazy cool! :D

Okay if Smashers implement this, it would save sooooo much time and money. As we all know it is possible to replace your Joy-Stick, but it turns out the only way to do this is through Soldering. I know that sounds like a huge turn off, but hear this through, if you get the equipment to do this, it's actually a really simple process. Yes you will spend $50-$60 to get the equipment, but you would save so much time and money, because literally you could go online pay $7 to get 6 Joy-Stick replacements, then use those! 6 for $7, that is crazy! No need to spend $100-$120 trying to get the right stick on multiple controllers, just buy the exact pieces you want for super cheap.

And it doesnt end there! Since companies still use the same module for modern Joy-Sticks as before, you can buy high quality Xbox One, Ps4, or what ever controller you want, and use there Joy-Sticks instead! Which by the way is only $3 for 2 of them.

 

[Magus420]

I'll also add that changing the front piece makes a difference. I'm sure people know this (the fact that not every front piece has the exact same gate in the exact same spot) but no one really does it. I've put a silver front on a white back before and it shield dropped perfectly. I've also done it and killed my ability to shield drop. Lol.

In my experience the boxes themselves have the most variance for shield dropping, followed closely by the PCB/potentiometers, and then the faceplate being a distant 3rd and mostly negligible assuming it's somewhat new or at least not worn unevenly.

 

[-ACE-]

In my experience the boxes themselves have the most variance for shield dropping, followed closely by the PCB/potentiometers, and then the faceplate being a distant 3rd and mostly negligible assuming it's somewhat new or at least not worn unevenly.

Thanks for the info. The one I swapped in was used, but the wear didn't seem significant. Have you heard of the gates being off rotation like I stated before?

 

[Magus420]

I'd heard they might be a factor out of the box and also figured that'd probably be the case, but I haven't actually encountered that myself, no. The 8-9 new/like new JP White and Smash4 faceplates I've tried swapping onto the same box+PCB pair have all been interchangeable with no more than 1 increment off at the SW/SE notches, which could just as likely be from not getting the exact same in-game calibration each time as the FP being the cause.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fortress | Sveet
What makes you think -0.7 isn't the desired alignment for controllers? I'm not saying it is, I'm just wondering because everyone seems to assume that shield dropping is supposed to be accessible via the notch but it seems just as likely that it is only supposed to be triggered below the 45 notches.

Can I know for sure what was "supposed" to be? Not unless I talk to an original engineer. What leads me to believe that? Because many/most controllers are positioned in that range on the left side, with an entire right side that is slightly off rotated (eg, straight right reads 0.0125 instead of 0.0000). This rotation issue can be seen on virtually every controller, but some controllers are also misaligned on the left side.