Need help with Intelligent aggression...

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#1
How do you play aggressively without being retarded about it? People often say that I'm too defensive, and against anyone else that is also too defensive, the match lasts longer than 8 minutes if there's no timer on. I've also had matches where I've basically run out of room to run away (like near an edge) and get owned because of it. Anyone have any tips on how to change this up without losing as a result?
 

Binx

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#4
Shield grab more, its both defensive and offensive, dash dance into grabs, spot dodge into grabs, then look for openings to do other things, but those are ways you can use your defense into offense, if you run the whole game you wont win.
 
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#5
There was a point in time when I shieldgrabbed way too much. And people would just lcancel something into shine or spot dodge and punish.
 

Zankoku

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#6
There's no problem with sticking to your game of keep-away. Just don't be so absorbed in staying away that you only pay attention to your location and your opponent's. Watch for openings that they might make when trying to chase you down.
 

Adi

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#7
That's the trick, being defensive is sometimes your best offense, but you have to know how to capitalize (sp?) on your opponents mistakes.
 
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#9
I have actually recently been addressing this very issue within my own gameplay. Perhaps I may impart a few words of wisdom.

First off, the key to "intelligent aggression" in my eyes is the ability to create, build, and sustain one's momentum. While a rather abstract concept, momentum can best be envisioned as possessing control of a match and dictating the movement and flow of that match (as I stated, not the most concrete of definitions, really). A significant portion of this relies upon your ability both to read and to react to your opponent. Successfully anticipating your foe will allow you both to stay on top of him or her and to punish any openings. However, this approach requires a good deal of thought, instinct, and proper decisions on your part, all components of higher level play (to which "intelligent aggression" is a gateway, in my opinion).

What you are looking for, Rapid_Assassin, is the ability to read, predict, and punish your opponents, which ties back in to the concept of momentum discussed above. The most I can tell you here is constantly to look for some of the most common openings in an opponent's game. For example, you should be paying enough attention to your opponent to see if, say, his Marth tends to space his fairs incorrectly; here, shield grabs are your friend (or perhaps an out-of-shield option as well, depending upon your character). As well, while on the offense, keep a sharp eye out for some of the most common efforts by your enemy to gain some breathing room. Perhaps he always runs away after he misses an aerial, in which case you should know to pursue. Perhaps he spot-dodges after missing a shuffled aerial, or always full-jumps by the ledge or tries to spot-dodge one of your falling aerials. You should notice that all of these scenarios imply that you are on the offense, pursuing and attacking your opponent, while they are trying to find an answer to your aggression. One of the keys to "intelligent aggression," then, is the ability to find answers on the fly to your opponent's efforts to escape you; this will allow you to stay on top of them, to maintain your momentum, and to play intelligently while staying on the offense.

Technical aptitude is also very much required for a successful offensive game plan. If one wishes to maintain his or her momentum (and thus his or her smart, offensive play), one cannot afford to lose all momentum instantly by getting shield-grabbed, out-spaced while approaching, grabbed from a falling aerial without an L-cancel, etc. You will notice that in all of these scenarios, were the player to have complete technical control over his or her character, he or she would emerge unscathed while the enemy would be jabbed, shined, hit with a spaced aerial, and so on; this would allow the player to continue to pressure his or her opponent, thus maintaining control of the match (momentum) and protecting the integrity of the offense.

In short, then, the keys to a successful (read: smart) offense are both mental and technical aptitude. However, there is one more ingredient to the mix, and that is your own absence of fear. You can never allow yourself to become afraid of your enemy, or that you might get punished if you go in, or what have you. Sometimes you just have to go in there and take what you can get. If you connect, keep your momentum and stay on top of your foe, always on the look-out for those easy openings and attempts to gain some breathing room, and following (key word) as appropriate. If you miss and are punished, DI the upcoming hit or hits, make the proper teching and recovery decisions, and keep on going. No fear.
 

King Kong

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#10
In short, then, the keys to a successful (read: smart) offense are both mental and technical aptitude. However, there is one more ingredient to the mix, and that is your own absence of fear. You can never allow yourself to become afraid of your enemy, or that you might get punished if you go in, or what have you. Sometimes you just have to go in there and take what you can get. If you connect, keep your momentum and stay on top of your foe, always on the look-out for those easy openings and attempts to gain some breathing room, and following (key word) as appropriate. If you miss and are punished, DI the upcoming hit or hits, make the proper teching and recovery decisions, and keep on going. No fear.
You're not studying English by any chance are you? That what well written, and this paragraph in particular is probably the best advice i've ever read. Cheers.

Do you think the same theory can be applied to a defensive playstyle?

Peace out
 
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#11
Thanks, King Kong; it's very much appreciated. ^^ But no, I'm not studying English, although it may seem that I am; I'm simply a long-time grammar perfectionist and nothing more. :)

Now, regarding your question, I do believe that the same theoryoverall can be applied to a defensive game; however, some slight modifications have to be made. For instance, instead of reading for attempts to escape, you instead would have to read for opposing attempts to approach. You would have to look for when and how your foe would choose to advance and counter accordingly. Perhaps you expect a shuffled nair from a Fox as he charges mindlessly at you, to which you respond with a reverse wavedash to space for a grab. Perhaps you expect an approach change-up in a dash-attack, in which case you would need to determine whether or not you could safely shield and then shield-grab (in the case of improper spacing) or hold your shield through an attack at your backside and escape with a timed wavedash or out-of-shield bair (in the case of proper spacing).

You would also need to anticipate what your more aggressive opponent will expect you to do and then react contrary to his expectations (here is where having the ability to switch between play styles is especially useful). For instance, if you are cornered near the edge, attempt to read your opponent's response (for instance, whether he expects you to jump and will try to catch you mid-air, whether he expects you to roll inward, etc.) and then counter accordingly (such as staying in shield if you expect him to read for your jump at the ledge, attacking out of shield if he expects you to spot-dodge or roll inward, and so on). In effect, you need to be able to reverse-engineer your opponent's mentality while playing defensively; note, however, that this same concept can also be applied to the aggressive styles and, indeed, any instance of the mental game at all.
 

Binx

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#13
Good advice Kitsune my shield grabbing advice was based on the assumption that his friends and him aren't at a decent level of technical skill yet and to work more on figuring out how to counter one of his friends move at a time to shift momentum into his favor. I really didn't think about mentioning followup to his defensive choice.

Anyhow you basically owned my advice with much more scope and detail than I was able to impart. Good job =) that no fear bit makes alot of sense to me also, since that slight moment of hesitation always seems to be the difference between continuing my combos and being spot dodged and hit.
 

tshahi10

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#14
Thanks, King Kong; it's very much appreciated. ^^ But no, I'm not studying English, although it may seem that I am; I'm simply a long-time grammar perfectionist and nothing more. :)

You would also need to anticipate what your more aggressive opponent will expect you to do and then react contrary to his expectations (here is where having the ability to switch between play styles is especially useful). For instance, if you are cornered near the edge, attempt to read your opponent's response (for instance, whether he expects you to jump and will try to catch you mid-air, whether he expects you to roll inward, etc.) and then counter accordingly (such as staying in shield if you expect him to read for your jump at the ledge, attacking out of shield if he expects you to spot-dodge or roll inward, and so on). In effect, you need to be able to reverse-engineer your opponent's mentality while playing defensively; note, however, that this same concept can also be applied to the aggressive styles and, indeed, any instance of the mental game at all.
ERR... that was a little too confusing.(to much subordinating conjunctions, and too much run ons) other than that, i think you were going more into detail about mindgames and the mentality behind it. It is true that you have to read your opponent to a certain extent, but you can also accomplish a playing style where you constantly space and apply pressure with controlled, but seemingly constant moves where you make them unable to read your next move. Also his fear may not be trying to attempt to hit the opponent nor wanting to wait for a chance, but he is afraid that he will be countered himself. Therefore i conclude that you should watch some good ken or so-and-so vids about people who can space their moves, control them, and break through to their oppponent.
 
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#15
Thank you everyone who gave helpful advice in this thread. Also, I'd like to thank the people I've talked to on AIM about this issue that didn't post on it, you know who you are... And no, I'm not some random noob who doesn't know what wavedashing is making this post to learn how to beat my little brother or some other crap like that. However, this has stemmed back to the days of complete noob-hood when a friend of mine first discovered how to shieldgrab, and I've been doing it for a little while myself. At that time, it would literally take more than 8 minutes for a 3 stock match because both of us were too afraid of getting grabbed to go near each other at all. It's basically the same idea as what's going on now, only a lot more extreme.

I was watching some vids of myself from a smashfest this past weekend. And I made an observation of my own play, where I'd literally run out of room to run away and then die from it. The best, clearest example I can give is in this match, first 16 seconds of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf7aCD5oJOQ I run away, staying far out of his range with wavedashing, and as soon as I reach the end of the stage, I get kneed in the face. Of course that isn't the only time it happens, or the only match either, but it's a good example.
 
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#16
Thank you everyone who gave helpful advice in this thread. Also, I'd like to thank the people I've talked to on AIM about this issue that didn't post on it, you know who you are... And no, I'm not some random noob who doesn't know what wavedashing is making this post to learn how to beat my little brother or some other crap like that. However, this has stemmed back to the days of complete noob-hood when a friend of mine first discovered how to shieldgrab, and I've been doing it for a little while myself. At that time, it would literally take more than 8 minutes for a 3 stock match because both of us were too afraid of getting grabbed to go near each other at all. It's basically the same idea as what's going on now, only a lot more extreme.

I was watching some vids of myself from a smashfest this past weekend. And I made an observation of my own play, where I'd literally run out of room to run away and then die from it. The best, clearest example I can give is in this match, first 16 seconds of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf7aCD5oJOQ I run away, staying far out of his range with wavedashing, and as soon as I reach the end of the stage, I get kneed in the face. Of course that isn't the only time it happens, or the only match either, but it's a good example.
I think it's because you are relying on the opponent to make mistakes more than trying to put pressure on the opponent.Sometimes it is safer to try for use moves with higher priority(G&W I have no clue though)to put your oponent in a more defensive position.

I really can't cover much,but Cunning Kitsune already has a well established and more informed theory than I do,so go ahead and use that.Just my two cents. =D
 
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#17
Well I used to play extremely defensive, and I slowly changed over to a very aggressive style because I was being punished so much. It's fine to play defensive or aggressive, you just have to be smart about it. Hugs is an example of a smart defensive player. If you're going to play aggressive, you just have to be very alert and have good spacing. I try not to make any openings for my opponent to do anything (this is very easy with G&W.) I wait if I need to and I time my moves so that they get hit as soon as their invincibility ends. Don't give them any room to breathe. I think you've seen a few of my vids so you probably can see that I play an aggressive G&W.

I'm still adjusting to my new aggressive style so I think a more experienced player would have more to say about smart aggressive play.

Oh and remember that ALL of G&W's moves have disjointed hitboxes, so abuse that range and priority. Some of my matches are just big walls of f-air and b-air lol
 

DALegendarySauce

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#20
Cunning's stuff is all good and stuff, and I agree completely.

In addition to this, however, Id say you should be aware of when to stop your attack string.
It seems obvious but the main way a really aggressive player will get punished is by not stopping when the combo is over, and going for that one last hit. Cunning actually does this really well irl which makes it weirder that he didn;t write about it.

the other thing which will help you not get trapped and out of breathing room, is to pay attention to the map and try to not move into disadvantageous terrain. And similarly realize that your opponent will seek the same terrain. this should help you in deciding where he's going when he has options. Try to make him think that he can go to the spot you know he wants.

Cunning, go to FC.
 
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#21
In addition to this, however, Id say you should be aware of when to stop your attack string.
It seems obvious but the main way a really aggressive player will get punished is by not stopping when the combo is over, and going for that one last hit. Cunning actually does this really well irl which makes it weirder that he didn;t write about it.
One of my friends does this. He tries to make the combo last as long as possible, but if it doesn't outright kill his opponent, he dies from it. Or, he'd just approach predictably, do something laggy, then get punished for it...
 

_milktea

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#22
Keep in mind when you're attacking their shield and make sure you l-cancel. You can play aggressively, but you still need to back off and wait for the right times to attack (I have yet to learn this). Oh, and be patient (can't do that either).

****, I'm probably not the best person to be asking LOL.
 

Omni

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#23
You have to be able to know what your opponent will or wants to do next. Mindgames is all about plotting how to exploit your opponent's next best move (in advanced play, next worst move). It usually comes naturally over time, but if you still don't have it, concentrate on the concept the next time you play.

However if you succeed, you'll only be good at intercepting, which is best if you're a patient player. Taking the initative is a little more in-depth.
 
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#24
Essentially, it's taking the initiative that I am not as good with, but I guess will come with practice. I usually wait for the opponent to do something laggy, in which case I'd attack them. In the video I showed on pg 1, my opponent was doing things that weren't laggy, so I'd back away so I don't get hit. Opponents just get used to it, and never do anything laggy, which will get me to back away to a part of the map (like near the edge) where i'd just do something dumb because there's no room left to back up and get punished for it. Or, they'd purposely miss attacks to get me to attack them, and because they were expecting my response I get nailed for it. Really, it's the backing away for no real reason that's dumb, it's just more complex to punish than throwing around random attacks.
 

Uck

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#26
I want to help you.Theres a movement you can do thats real cunning and aggressive.Its a simple movement thats overlooked by the hordes and abused by those who know.Send me a PM if you want to know.
 

Omni

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#27
I want to help you.Theres a movement you can do thats real cunning and aggressive.Its a simple movement thats overlooked by the hordes and abused by those who know.Send me a PM if you want to know.
lol @ secret aggressive technique

look here's what u do. just think. with this game being this old and all these videos being out, what do the "hordes" constantly abuse?

answer: wavedash back to... whatever. dashdance (essentially running left, then back to the same position) and rolling too. basically you take one step forward, they're already taking one step back. the common trap.

so knowing that, how can you use this against your opponent? uh idk... there's:

1.) extending your attack to the position your opponent can retreat. most people have a bad habit. the biggest bad habit, imo, is when an opponent rolls when they feel threatened. an opponent feels threatened when you have a position that is better then theres. this changes depending on the stage, the character, and the person controlling the character, but it's there. the "secret" to being aggressive is always placing yourself in a position that endangers your opponents position.

so once your opponent feels threatened, they'll either ATTACK, EVADE, SHIELD, DO NOTHING, or do exactly what you just did and manuever themselves in a position that endangers your own. whatever your opponent does defines what kind of opponent you're playing. if you find that your opponent does the same thing whenever you do a certain same thing, you've found a HABIT. being aware that this habit exists and capitalizing on it is what seperates a great smash player from a good smash player.

so this is what i'll tell you Rapid_Assassin. the "theory" i've just said is one of thousands that i have swirling in my head when i smash. i've used hundreds of these approaches and seen hundreds more. smashers of a high skill level know EXACTLY what i'm talking about in the above paragraphs and to us, it's basic. even though i can technically "teach" and "explain" this to you, the only way you'll fully grasp it is by "experiencing" it. that's why this game is so awesome.

try new things. if something doesn't work, do something else, even if it doesn't look it would work. that's why this game is so great. the possibilities are endless.
 

Uck

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#29
Nice Omni now everyone knows the secret technique. . .
Dash away from opponent then run towards him into a grab or attack.

You can get really tricky with this and you can mix it up with the same concept in mind.Sounds simply but its so effective.
 
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#31
Thank you everyone for your help, both in this thread and in PM.

Unrelated note: 56k, you change your sig more than I do... :p
 

Grand Mango

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#33
Man I was having such an off day the time that video was recorded.

Well you do play defensively, but you didn't put up your shield when that knee hit.

What I can tell you from playing you is, that you don't punish my offensive mistakes as much as other players do. Many times I forward B and I miss, sometimes I get it but yeah sometimes I miss.

Sometimes when you give yourself a little space, close it back in so you can tell them you are being offensive, giving me more space allows me space better without having to worry about getting shield grabbed, that's usually the case with most characters.

Well this is all I can really tell you, I'm kind of tired.
 
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#34
Well you do play defensively, but you didn't put up your shield when that knee hit.
I didn't, but i did something dumber, which was to duck as if to crouch cancel, and stand right back up immediately after. I clearly ran out of "wavedash back" space.
 

Kirakitsune

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#35
Well I play over aggresively, so maybe my 'defense' options may be of help to you. Rather than running back or wavedashing back, I have more of an offensive defense. I shield grab a lot (not tournament level play btw), I'll jump out of my shield with a sex kick, I'll SH an attack into an oncoming oppents just to trade hits (assuming he has higher damage) and I pretty much just stay on top of my opponent and juggle as much as possible, even if I have to use a dash attack. I hardly ever roll or spot dodge.

So maybe you can take some of that play style and hybrid with your own (because you need some defense too.. I'm still working on it). I play fox if it matters, so you may have to transcribe things for your character.
 

Grand Mango

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#36
And one more note on my playing I was going to say last night but the edit button didn't work + I was tired, I always space myself away when I miss a forward B, pay attention to things like that. Most players NEED a comfort/retreating zone, if you close in on that space they create, you leave them with little things to do and a lot of pressure, especially if you space your attacks well.
 
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#37
What I can tell you from playing you is, that you don't punish my offensive mistakes as much as other players do. Many times I forward B and I miss, sometimes I get it but yeah sometimes I miss.
That was probably the first thing anyone said about the match, which was part of the reason i made the thread...
 
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#40
I also need to ask anyone who knows me if I'm honestly getting better at the game. Most of the time it doesn't seem that way, because regardless of what I do or how much I practice, I still suck.. At least I know why I suck now. :) But it still doesn't help much..

Long story short, I know that learning how to cover myself when I attack will take an assload of practice, and will wind up with me being worse for a long time before I get better. (like with any noob learning advanced techniques)
 
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