N64 Controllers discussion

[151rby]

[deleted.]

 

[12ssb]

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in a 3d model of the original N64 restrictor gate. The problem in most replacement sticks is that the restrictor has mainly an octogonal shape compared to the square shape of the original. Being able to obtain 3d models of it would greatly help to produce accurate durable replacement sticks. Here is a picture between original stick and gc style stick with pcb change.

http://i.imgur.com/agiLtfh.png

I'll be sure and bring it along when I go do the scans.

 

[12ssb]

So I had my very first foray into 3D scanning today, and it was, uh, not quite as easy as I'd hoped it might be. There are a few obstacles at this point. The main one seems to be the limited capabilities of the equipment available at the lab. They have two different types of 3D scanners. One of them is only good for scanning bigger stuff, so I used the other one. Now mind you, this isn't one of those fancy-schmancy new-fangled 3D scanners that actually scans an entire object in just one or two runs by making use of such cutting-edge technological breakthroughs as ROTATING the object or scanning it from MULTIPLE SIDES simultaneously. No, this is the 3D scanner your great-grandfather used at the hand-built schoolhouse after walking 15 miles uphill barefoot in a snowstorm to get there. Basically the way it works is when you want to scan something, you have to scan it over and over again from a bunch of different angles until you have enough data to assemble a 3D model of the entire object. Their website states that it usually takes "as little as" 12 scans to actually get an entire scan.

Now that by itself would be tedious, but it would only slow down progress, not halt it. There are other problems. For one, I think the data I have now might be crap, because apparently certain types of surfaces are kind of problematic to 3D scan, including shiny surfaces - such as the surface of the white plastic bowl in a brand-new N64 control stick. I took 14 scans of it; some are patchy, others look like random garbage data. It might or might not be possible to piece them together into an acceptable 3D model of the piece, but I tried and by the time I'd put 3 of them together it was already clearly wrong. I could upload the data, but it's currently in the proprietary file format used by the software that goes with the scanner, so it wouldn't be much use to anyone unless they happen to have ScanStudio installed on their computer. I could probably convert all the individual scans to .stl next time I go to the lab though.

Generally the solution to shiny surfaces, with this scanner at least, is to use a "powder pen" to cover up the shiny with a fine powder. I didn't learn any of this shiny stuff until after I left the lab and came home, so I didn't ask if they had any powder pens. But I think if they did they would have mentioned it. They're not very expensive though so I could just get my own.

But even if I had a powder pen, I'm wondering if it might be better to just send the pieces to a 3D scanning service and pay them to make professional scans. Piecing the scans together, while greatly assisted by software algorithms, still isn't just something any idiot can go and do. It takes skill and practice. It would be a project with a lot of trial and error. And while a week pass at the lab is pretty cheap, the price would definitely add up if I had to return to the lab many times. Especially since I can at best go the lab a few times per week, and once school starts I'll be lucky if I can go once per week. Not to mention that the lab is really busy while school is in session. I might make a reservation three weeks into the future only to find that I can't go because I have too much homework. So I'm thinking maybe I should just pay pros to do the scans instead. But on the other hand, maybe I could just go to the lab to do all the scans I need, convert them all to .stl, then come home and put them together with Blender. That would probably be ideal. But I don't know if it would be possible, and if so I don't know if I could gain the necessary skills in a reasonable timeframe.

Sorry this is so long, but I figured some of it might be helpful to anyone who might try a similar project, and of general interest in a thread dedicated to the quest for high-quality N64 controllers.

 

[KnitePhox]

Skill to reasonable time is very understandable and something that kept me from my initial pursuit into 3d scanning. Good luck in the future

 

[Morin0]

is it possible to use the MESS emulator or whatever people use to do a benchmark test of their controller to use that as a basis for deadzone/range values?

I'm thinking about trying out the Derek stick on emulator, but there is no precedent for that type of analog stick to get recommended deadzone/range values, so I was wondering if I can come up with somewhat accurate deadzone/range values for the emulator using the benchmark tests results

 

[nickthename]

For my regular derek stick on emulator, I use DXTweak to make sure windows isn't ****ing it up, then I just set the range on pj64k to 100%, and it feels just like console. For a modded derek stick, I don't know what the range is supposed to be though.

 

[MCG]

Same thing for my Jerek stick. Just don't use the windows calibration tool, or if you've used it before, reset it to default. The range on pj64 is set at 100%. I can compare both console and emulator and both the yoshi test and fox/yoshi running jump side platform on dreamland give me the same results. The movement when I play feels the same as well.

 

[Odon]

So is there a good source of either stick replacements or like new n64 controllers out there? I'm considering buying a hori but only if I cant find a decent n64 controller to use(or a good replacement stick).

 

[Zantetsu]

is it possible to use the MESS emulator or whatever people use to do a benchmark test of their controller to use that as a basis for deadzone/range values?

I'm thinking about trying out the Derek stick on emulator, but there is no precedent for that type of analog stick to get recommended deadzone/range values, so I was wondering if I can come up with somewhat accurate deadzone/range values for the emulator using the benchmark tests results

Yes, I did this.

I am going to apologize in advance if this has been posted, discussed, or solved already. 513 posts are a lot to go through so I'd rather just post my findings here. Before you read the wall of text, I should say that I believe I found a way to more accurately adjust your range through direct input itself and not through the emulator plugin, along with testing the newly adjusted range in the controller benchmark test so that you can physically see the range you have adjusted it to and tweak it to get it as close as a new OEM controller as possible.

So in regards to the controller benchmark test, I stated experimenting with it in the MESS emulator with range maximized out and deadzone turned all the way down so that it displays the full range that I receive on my controller as recognized by direct input. With my N64 Adapter and my N64 controller, these were my benchmark results.

And if you're unaware, according to the benchmark test rom, a new OEM stick should look like this:

So it's clear that I need to turn the range down. Instead of playing the guessing game, or just doing the math to determine the difference, I wanted to go deeper with this. Looking through some other forums, I was able to find this program called dxtweak. It looks like it was originally created for pedal adjustments for racing games, but it works perfectly fine with standard joystick controllers as well.
With this program, I was capable of adjusting the range separately for both positive and negative on the Y and X axis. On top of this, you can also adjust the deadzone for the Y and X axis, which is helpful if you have a deadzone area only on the X or Y axis.

In order to check after each adjustment I made in dxtweak, I had to hard reset the MESS emulator. It didn't update in realtime, so that is what took up most of my time doing this, but it really doesn't take too long to get them right. I was able to get that crazy N64 controller range to adjust to this:

It could be better, but it's still fairly close and I know that I'm not overdoing the range by nearly as much anymore. So after I completed this, I went into the emulator, set the deadzone to 0 and the range to 100 so that the new settings I have made are not being interfered with due to the plugin and I booted up SSB64. Personally, I feel that it's the best configuration I've had. All sorts of tilts, falling uairs, etc. have become a lot easier but I can still dash around perfectly as well. It felt a lot like console.

So yeah, not sure if this kind of thing has been done or not. If it hasn't and my post isn't very clear (with it being almost 4am here), I can probably make a tutorial video or something if there is any interest in this. I'm also open to any input or criticism if any of my knowledge on this is incorrect.

 

[Shrokatii]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what should one do about a controller that has a lot of deadzone? Is there much you can do?

 

[nickthename]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what should one do about a controller that has a lot of deadzone? Is there much you can do?

Replace the gears with http://store.kitsch-bent.com/product/n64-joystick-gears.

Follow Fireblaster's tutorial here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar5dF4gp7b8

It's also possible to put a small rubberband around the end of the stick, but this results in a slightly different feel and isn't very permanent.

 

[dav3yb]

Replace the gears with http://store.kitsch-bent.com/product/n64-joystick-gears.

Follow Fireblaster's tutorial here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar5dF4gp7b8

It's also possible to put a small rubberband around the end of the stick, but this results in a slightly different feel and isn't very permanent.

i think i've seen these before, but never got around to ordering any. i just placed an order for 20 sets. I know my brother has some controllers with pretty not great parts in them, so i can test those out for sure.

 

[Grizzmeister]

My friend Doug was going through his basement the other day and found two N64 controllers that still have tight sticks. One is the original green and the other is black. Both have tights sticks although they're a little dusty. Nothing that can't be washed off, though. I wonder how much somebody would pay for these controllers if he puts them on Ebay? He's up in West Virginia and I'm in North Carolina so I can't test them with Super Smash Bros. for him but he assures me that the sticks feel like new cuz he hardly ever used those controllers.

 

[Cedricwa]

My friend Doug was going through his basement the other day and found two N64 controllers that still have tight sticks. One is the original green and the other is black. Both have tights sticks although they're a little dusty. Nothing that can't be washed off, though. I wonder how much somebody would pay for these controllers if he puts them on Ebay? He's up in West Virginia and I'm in North Carolina so I can't test them with Super Smash Bros. for him but he assures me that the sticks feel like new cuz he hardly ever used those controllers.

30

 

[dav3yb]

My friend Doug was going through his basement the other day and found two N64 controllers that still have tight sticks. One is the original green and the other is black. Both have tights sticks although they're a little dusty. Nothing that can't be washed off, though. I wonder how much somebody would pay for these controllers if he puts them on Ebay? He's up in West Virginia and I'm in North Carolina so I can't test them with Super Smash Bros. for him but he assures me that the sticks feel like new cuz he hardly ever used those controllers.

as said, really good ones go for about 30-35 tops. i'd probably be interested in the black one to be honest. I still need one more controller with a good joystick to complete a set of 4 with good original joysticks on them.

 

[Grizzmeister]

I'll ask Doug to take pictures of the controllers and post them up here. I'm sure he'll give you guys a break on the price knowing that you'll put them to good use playing Smash 64.

 

[Grizzmeister]

Here are the pictures of Doug's N64 controllers.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I mite need a new set of console controllers here soon

 

[Grizzmeister]

I mite need a new set of console controllers here soon

I think Doug wants to sell both of his as a set. It'd be cool if a competitive Smash player bought them and put them to good use.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I'd buy them. Let me know.

 

[Grizzmeister]

I'd buy them. Let me know.

Somebody already bought them. Hopefully they'll post their impressions here when the controllers arrive.

 

[MrMarbles]

this "doug" guy could have contributed to greatness by selling them to boom. instead he sold them to some scrub. whata jabrony

 

[Grizzmeister]

this "doug" guy could have contributed to greatness by selling them to boom. instead he sold them to some scrub. whata jabrony

You know the old saying, "the early bird catches the worm". Doug sold the controllers to the first person who said they were interested.

I'll ask some of my other friends who don't play on the N64 anymore and see if they're open to selling their controllers to people like Boom who'll put them to good use.

 

[wprpalmeida]

quick update on my little project: I haven't given up on it yet. Nearly all chinese companies were charging me $35 to ship samples of the potentiometer, and considering my current financial situation, I can't afford to spend this much money for samples, which are usually free. However, I have found a seemingly suitable replacement, but I will need to "hack" it and basically assemble a new potentiometer using some of the RepairBox original potentiometers. These potentiometers are already in the country and waiting until some useless civil servant decides to work a little.

 

[firo]

I removed the springs from my gamecube controller. It works perfectly with the adapter and it feels great. I'll be playing this way from now on.

You can't actually just remove the springs in the smash gc controller, as the shoulder buttons will just get stuck. But if you have any old gamecube controller, you can just pop the board right in from the new one (with the fresh stick) and use that.

The gc controller has pretty much everything you can ask for at this point - easily accessible new $20 sticks, mappable buttons, possibility of digital input/DI if you like, digital triggers.... why use anything else? (unless you play ness, or maybe fox)

 

[MrMarbles]

I removed the springs from my gamecube controller. It works perfectly with the adapter and it feels great. I'll be playing this way from now on.

You can't actually just remove the springs in the smash gc controller, as the shoulder buttons will just get stuck. But if you have any old gamecube controller, you can just pop the board right in from the new one (with the fresh stick) and use that.

The gc controller has pretty much everything you can ask for at this point - easily accessible new $20 sticks, mappable buttons, possibility of digital input/DI if you like, analog triggers.... why use anything else? (unless you play ness, or maybe fox)

yeah it totally sucks for ness. also the z button (or is it r button?) is super stiff and makes it almost impossible to do quick aerials off the ground with that button. i dont like doing aerials with the a button at all so it's no good for me

 

[firo]

yeah it totally sucks for ness. also the z button (or is it r button?) is super stiff and makes it almost impossible to do quick aerials off the ground with that button. i dont like doing aerials with the a button at all so it's no good for me

Fair enough, that's understandable. But for the average smasher, the springless gamecube controller is in my opinion the best controller option available right now by a significant margin.

 

[nickthename]

It's possible to configure the adapter to trigger the press at 50% depression, which means you don't have to remove the springs. I've never tried one with no springs, maybe that's better? But yeah, gamecube controllers are mad decent for 64 play. I'd definitely prefer xbox with an adapter or a hori, but both of those options are significantly more expensive and more difficult to obtain.

It's a real shame the pcb fixes for derek sticks aren't mass produced. I love the gc style replacement sticks, but the range takes a lot of getting used to and makes some techniques way more difficult. However, the guy that makes the pcb replacements is taking his sweet time making another batch.

 

[firo]

The range issues for the derek stick were too much for me. I couldn't rely on it for stuff like pivot uptilts or quick uair platform drops. Also very rarely the derek stick would get off center while I was playing.

No springs is better for gamecube, because even with the 50%, you still need to press, release, wait for the button to come back above the threshold, and press it again. No springs makes the trigger truly digital, you can spam it just as fast as you can with Z on the n64 controller. If you have a old gamecube controller (or a shell to put the smash controller into), it's definitely worth a try.

 

[Morin0]

IMO, there is still something off with the shoulder buttons even if you remove the springs. You can't mash the L/R buttons to Z-cancel because it still takes more force/time to press than another button like the Z button on the top right. I tried this out for a while and I would constantly miss z-cancels because of this. Also, quick turnaround charge cancels with DK becomes tricky because of the weird L/R buttons. It may take some getting used to, but I just don't like the weird click feedback I get and how hard I have to press in order to Z cancel.

 

[Capos]

I used the MESS emulator.

Follow those two links:

http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/single/?p=8121623&t=7349580
http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/topic/7349580/1/

From what I remember when I tried to have it working, you need to find the N64.zip on your own (it's not really hard using google but it's not linked in any of the posts IIRC).

Did anyone else not get this working right away? I open the controller test rom and the buttons all work, but the analog stick is way, way off, to the point that it's displaying symbols and letters rather than just numbers. I have no idea which step I went wrong on.

 

[MCG]

Did anyone else not get this working right away? I open the controller test rom and the buttons all work, but the analog stick is way, way off, to the point that it's displaying numbers rather than symbols. I have no idea which step I went wrong on.

That never happened to me, can you provide a screenshot of what you are experiencing? What controller/adapter are you using?

 

[Capos]

That never happened to me, can you provide a screenshot of what you are experiencing? What controller/adapter are you using?

Mayflash, these screenshots are N64 with derek stick, although the original has similarish results.

(On the first image, you can see the red dot on the x axis, close to what I assume is supposed to be is all the way left on a normal stick.)

 

[MCG]

Mayflash, these screenshots are N64 with derek stick, although the original has similarish results.

(On the first image, you can see the red dot on the x axis, close to what I assume is supposed to be is all the way left on a normal stick.)

The only think I can suggest is to try MESS instead of MAME. From what I can see in MAME's website, MESS is included in MAME but this is not what I used. I don't know if that could explain why. I'll try with MAME whenever I get the chance.

EDIT: I just downloaded the latest MAME version and I have symbols just like you have. I recommend using an older version (for example, my MESS version is 0.160).

 

[Deleted member]

my stick is getting loose already... =(

 

[Capos]

The only think I can suggest is to try MESS instead of MAME. From what I can see in MAME's website, MESS is included in MAME but this is not what I used. I don't know if that could explain why. I'll try with MAME whenever I get the chance.

EDIT: I just downloaded the latest MAME version and I have symbols just like you have. I recommend using an older version (for example, my MESS version is 0.160).

Thanks, tried .160 and now at least I'm getting sensible numbers, but it's still not quite right. The numbers up to about 40 seem good in all directions, but after that the numbers start jumping all over the place ending around 128. The Y directions change signs between 40 and 128, the x directions keep the correct sign throughout.

 

[KnitePhox]

holy **** those looks like a joke of some kind LMAO; i have no experience with that software.

 

[MCG]

Thanks, tried .160 and now at least I'm getting sensible numbers, but it's still not quite right. The numbers up to about 40 seem good in all directions, but after that the numbers start jumping all over the place ending around 128. The Y directions change signs between 40 and 128, the x directions keep the correct sign throughout.

Make sure your joystick is not calibrated in windows. If it has been calibrated, you can reset the calibration through the control pannel ('reset to default'). I don't have any derek original PCB so I can't test but what I had before replacing the PCB was this :

http://i.imgur.com/fEhCi5P.png

Edit: You can also use the DXTweak program to reset your setting

 

[Capos]

Make sure your joystick is not calibrated in windows. If it has been calibrated, you can reset the calibration through the control pannel ('reset to default'). I don't have any derek original PCB so I can't test but what I had before replacing the PCB was this :

http://i.imgur.com/fEhCi5P.png

Edit: You can also use the DXTweak program to reset your setting

Either way, the original n64 stick is the same in 3 directions, so something is definitely off. Unfortunately that wasn't it. I reset to default in control panel (I think, there doesn't seem to be any confirmation that it was reset) but it's the same. Here is what dxtweak looks like, I'm not sure what the numbers are supposed to say

 

[Capos]

Can only attach 3 images per post, but here's the message from clicking "device defaults"