My Weekend with Zamus v1.03 *Pillaring, DAir and Down B*

[ph00tbag]

Ugh, thanks for this, but I'm not going to remember any of it when I'm actually playing! I can't wait to come up with my own strategies once I get a real feel of her moveset.

Trust me, you're going to get very used to UpB spamming.

 

[ShardZ]

the guide says her stun gun has 2 versions, but I'm pretty sure there's 3 - tapping B gets a (visibly different) weak attack that doesn't really stun, holding B for just a moment gets a lesser charged shot with a slight stun on hit, and the fully charged B I'm pretty sure goes further and stuns longer on hit. I could be wrong on this though, as I don't have the game in front of me atm to test it.

 

[ShardZ]

Ok after playing ZSS for a while I think it can safely be said that one of her higher priority attacks is her dair. It is very useful for punching through jugglers.

In the air and off stage it has a spike and is only practically attainable after your enemy has knocked you up which causes the dair to slow fall, which basically doesn't kill you. Some more testing will be needed to be done on exactly how you need to be hit to initiate this slow fall dair, but it is powerful and though situational; it will be your enemy's downfall for not fearing it.

I much prefer d.B, as all you have to commit to initially is changing your positioning and if you choose to do the built-in kick you have an excellent attack that's still far, far safer than her dair.

 

[The Great Leon]

I too prefer Down B to DAir due to safety reasons. Not to say that you should only use one exclusively, DAir is one of my lesser used moves. Not only can Down B meteor spike(?) if you sweetspot it, it acts as a sex kick with crazy horizontal knockback as well. The only problem with Down B is spacing the jump it gives you, as it can be pretty easy to read. Dair is good for escaping juggles and chasing an Up B if you hit in in the air.

 

[Ares And Enyo]

In a game with diminishing returns ... I think it'd be best to try and utilize all of a characters attacks ... dair is just as situational than d.b. I think once you start playing with a few wiser brawlers you'll see the d.b is situational too - especially since it is so easily predictable and makes Samus move so slowly though the air - it can be punished on (IMO) an equal level as the dair. They both have the same good features, great to move you around, spike-able, & higher priority for samus. The dair's main advantage over d.b is it is moves you much faster and consequently less predictable. The d.b is better in that it wall jumps, has less landing lag, and activates instantly. The d.b may be more frequently the better choice, but there is a significantly large set or scenarios that favor dair. My point is that dair is still a good attack - give it a chance. It doesn't come naturally but just keep trying it because I think it is important.

 

[ShardZ]

I'm a bit confused though, is there some way to cancel dair before hitting the ground? This would considerably raise my opinion of the move. lol

Leon: RE:your guide, I wanted to mention a few things..

jab combo - at low % I've been grabbed out of this in the middle on hit. Is this true of most/all jab combos? anyway, unsure if this is guaranteed but I was able to combo the entire thing in certain juggle situations at mid/high %.. might be worth messing around with since this is one of her fastest moves.

u.tilt - how could this be used after a d.tilt? that launches them up & away from you, so I'm unclear on what you mean.

f.smash - you already covered everything, I just wanted to emphasize that it only kills at *very* high %. lol

d.smash - seems like the best combos are grab -> down throw -> followup or f.B to kill. wondering though, am I missing anything here? I was wondering if moving forward then doing u.B would work, but I haven't been able to get it to hit properly where it snaps them back down.

u.smash - STUPIDLY GOOD ANTI-AIR. I was playing Vayseth's toon link and any time he would try to dair if I timed u.smash properly (not very hard to do) it would clash with the dair several times then finally hit him, knocking him back up into the air a bit. I'm wondering if there's some way this can magically beat kirby's d.B, although I'm not too hopeful. lol

d.B - The direction the kick comes out in can be controlled by holding left or right. I *think* it can spike for the entire duration, although I'm not positive.. you might be right on that. I didn't know about controlling the direction she jumps in, thanks for that!

grabbing - I was also noticing that the dashing grab seems more unwieldy than the normal grab.. comes out slower maybe? also this might be worth testing - seemed like at point blank range it would grab them instantly like a normal grab, like when shield grabbing. not 100% sure on that though.

 

[The Great Leon]

Semantics, I know, but I don't feel pro enough to call it more than my impressions, though I am updating some misinformation.

At the tourney this weekend I was getting shield grabbed between the 2nd and 3rd hit of the jab combo. I don't know much about 'jab faking' but maybe that can help. I probably meant that U/D Tilt are fairly interchangeable. That's generally what I do after a D Smash. I haven't played with Up B too much, but I have hopes for the future. Good point on the Up Smash, but Kirby's fully invulerable to non-grab attacks afaik Yeah I think you can control the direction of the kick, but its a spike -> sex kick, not a spike the whole time its out.

Also, I do need to play with D Air more. The only times I really use it are to get out of a juggle, after an aerial Up B, and maybe to mix it up while recovering. I do use it though. Down B has a different time to be used, and its not really fair to compare the two out of context, even if they are similar in many regards.

 

[Big Burn]

zamus is to sexy

 

[JoeTang]

DAir always seems to make you go downwards at the same speed unless you already have upwards momentum. It can be used as a "DI" of sorts if you're hit upwards at a fast speed. I believe it has a total momentum to it, in terms of "physics" where when you jump and use it, it will maintain this momentum since there are no physical forces to off balance it. If you've been hit, you already have momentum in one direction, so when you use DAir, they cancel each other. If you use DAir while flying upwards from a hit, you will stop when you shoot downwards. Depending on the speed, it will vary, but afterwards, you will go downwards again. If you hit a person from above while they're on the ground, it can hit either once or twice, I believe. One hit is your first initial strike, and they get knocked away. Two hits is when you hit them, but then your impact on the ground causes another strike. It spikes more or less, but again, you can end up falling faster than them. If you really want to kill someone, you should use it in the same mechanics as Garuda Dragon in SSBM minus the ability to recover afterwards. If you miss the person, you're open for a lot of hits from the lag.

I'm pretty sure that if Forward B hits an opponent (i.e. they don't shield), it will push them to the end of the whip and tip them. It at least does this some of the time.

I've had computer players Meteor Cancel my Up B, or at the least, be able to jump back. I wasn't paying complete attention to whether it was a true Meteor Cancel, but they were tossed down and could still jump and recover. It was more or less halfway out off the stage Battle Field against Sonic, but I can't remember the percentage. It can be used easily enough off the edge since after pulling someone or missing, you can still use it or Back Flip to recover.
Against Computers though, most Aerial Combos, especially involving Up B didn't work too well. After the initial Down Tilt or Up Tilt, they would Air Dodge the next hit I sent upwards, whether it be an Up B, an Up Smash, or an Up Air. Up Air is fast enough for me though that if they Air Dodge (or not) the first one, I can easily follow up a second one, or a Forward Air and hit them. When I did hit an Up B and brought them down to my feet, they []icould[/i] tech and dodge my immediate Down Smash. The ability could be % Based though.
Forward Air pretty much requires both (or at least the second) hit to contact for good knock-back. Back Air is analogous to regular Samus's Back Air except without as much knock-back. Or at least, comparatively to SSBM's version. I'm not sure about Brawl's.
I've found both to be difficult to short hop and land though. The hit boxes are still unfamiliar to me. Down Tilt -> (Up Air ->) Forward Air seems potentially good, though I need more practice with timing. Neutral Air seems to have a fairly small hit box compared to what I'm used to. The back of the whip seems to have fairly decent knock-back, though I'll have to check again.

 

[SuperSmashSisters]

What happens if you use the stun gun on someone who is in the air?

 

[Shuyin]

It stuns them in the air.

 

[ph00tbag]

It stuns them in the air.

And a note on this. Apparently, if they're close enough to the ground, you can still grab them with the grapple beam. I don't know if you can do this normally with people in the air, but it's pretty neat.

 

[Yeroc]

Yes, it stuns and freezes them where they are. I have other impressions and tidbits from a weekend spent primarily playing ZSS.

Zamus can dash attack cancel like Snake, but better done with u tilt than u smash. Makes the dash attack much much better imo.

Both the d B jump and attack can be performed either way, depending on which way you tilt the stick. Defaults obviously are jumping the way you are facing and kicking back the direction you came. But the added versatility is amazing.

Up smash is pretty good, but situational. The very first hitbox is right next to you, front side only. They pretty much have to be touching you, and this is the only time you can hit a standing opponent with the move. I like to use it off the d throw, as it's safer than most airs due to low hitstun.

I hate all stupidly suicidal d airs. What's the point of a spike that kills you too?

 

[The Great Leon]

Zamus can dash attack cancel like Snake, but better done with u tilt than u smash. Makes the dash attack much much better imo.

I know when you play Snake, you time a c-stick up at about the time his dash attack connects. This results in the rest of the dash attack animation getting cut short for a sliding up smash animation. Afaik, when playing Zamus, you simply up tilt after a dash attack, with little or no animation cancelling. Are you saying there is a way to totally interrupt her dash attack with an up tilt/up smash?

 

[Yeroc]

There was definitely some animation canceling. Probably not as much as Snake, but it was there. And it seemed good against blocking opponents. Ryoko agreed with me that it works.

 

[The Kraken]

you um.. think you could add some percentages with that Move List? only it would be a nice addition to see how much damage Zamus really can deal. Thanks in advance.

 

[bLaiS]

really awesome of you for sharing, great info i cant wait to play zamus.

 

[anoobis]

I did some 'pillaring' testing today: What I did vs CPU on stand -> dash attack -> utilt -> up b -> dsmash -> up b -> dsmash etc.

The combo worked up to 7 times after that it became tricky to make it connect because of how high they got. Also did it in battle like 3 times vs some friends...At one point when I up bed it looked like he teched out of the pull down...either that or I didn't down smash fast enough. Also to keep the combo going you have to make sure you're touching said character.

Also in practice I found that you might have to step in a different direction to actually land the down smash.

-anoobis

 

[ph00tbag]

I did some 'pillaring' testing today: What I did vs CPU on stand -> dash attack -> utilt -> up b -> dsmash -> up b -> dsmash etc.

The combo worked up to 7 times after that it became tricky to make it connect because of how high they got. Also did it in battle like 3 times vs some friends...At one point when I up bed it looked like he teched out of the pull down...either that or I didn't down smash fast enough. Also to keep the combo going you have to make sure you're touching said character.

Also in practice I found that you might have to step in a different direction to actually land the down smash.

-anoobis

The mechanics of this are interesting. Up until 60%, Plasma Wire cannot be teched, so you can just straight pillar with it. After that, you may actually just want to wait for a tech and chase it, or if your opponent doesn't tech, go for a sheildgrab or roll chase. I'm not so sure how reliable Dsmash is out of UpB. Generally, you've got better comboability just spamming upB.

 

[anoobis]

imo using dsmash allows you to make sure they're stunned long enough for you to be close enough to combo again with up b if you just spam up b they'll move away. Also, if they miss their tech the dsmash will punish that and allow for other moves (probably another dsmash followed by an up tilt)

 

[ph00tbag]

imo using dsmash allows you to make sure they're stunned long enough for you to be close enough to combo again with up b if you just spam up b they'll move away. Also, if they miss their tech the dsmash will punish that and allow for other moves (probably another dsmash followed by an up tilt)

except that dsmash is fairly slow in coming out, and could give them time to sheild or spot dodge. Watch your opponent after you hit them with UpB. For a few moments, they'll seem to be in something of a tumble animation at ground level, then they'll be standing. When they are standing, they can do anything. If you dsmash, you'll hit them after they go into a standing animation, which means they can sheild the dsmash.

 

[Pointman Rob]

Great thread and great discussion. I never really thought to use both walljumps as an anti-tether stall before (guess that works on some stages better than others), and I knew there was combo ability in the upB, but now ive got something concrete to go on.

Well Ive got some things to practice now, not to mention a fair share of ridiculous combo ideas to toy around with.

 

[ynomrahnsguht]

this is a good thread. thanks

 

[NJzFinest]

Pillaring is a term used for pressuring an opponents sheild (etc. Falco's short hop Dair to shine repeat from Melee). Since Falco can also combo with Dair and shine, people mistake that as pillaring. That's just a simple shine combo though.
But yeah, pillaring is used for hitting a shield over and over, not comboing someone up and down. I mean, players called Peach's float canceled Nair to jab a pillar. That looks nothing like comboing up an down

 

[anoobis]

Yeah, I get that I used to be a falco main and got pissed when people called shine combos pillaring. However, in the beginning of this thread someone dubbed the zamus up and down with the whip pillaring so I went with it

 

[The Great Leon]

Pillaring is a term used for pressuring an opponents sheild (etc. Falco's short hop Dair to shine repeat from Melee). Since Falco can also combo with Dair and shine, people mistake that as pillaring. That's just a simple shine combo though.
But yeah, pillaring is used for hitting a shield over and over, not comboing someone up and down. I mean, players called Peach's float canceled Nair to jab a pillar. That looks nothing like comboing up an down

A very nice explanation, much better than my sorry attempt. I knew going in that calling it pillaring was very wrong, but I did so anyway. Needless to say this mythical Up B combo needs a new name, if it turns out to be anything. Up B is easy to DI out of so I don't know how well 'pillaring' is going to work :/