My tier list.

[SamuraiPanda]

Link to original post: [drupal=536]My tier list.[/drupal]



I made this list with input from DSF (and a bit from Needle of Juntah, too) a couple of weeks ago. Its one of the best lists I've seen IMO, although there are probably still a few things wrong with it here and there. Although DSF and I both believe Snake isn't 2nd best in the game, we just think he's 2nd best for now until the community figures him out better. Also, NoJ and I think G&W is going to drop down in the future, and DSF personally thinks Wario is the 3rd best in the game but with the new grab release stuff I can't agree with that. Also, we agreed that its WAY too early for an accurate tier list.


Metaknight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.

Wario
Falco
Marth
Lucario
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Olimar
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Zelda
Luigi
Toon Link
Peach
Zamus
Mario
Ike
Sheik
Ness
Lucas

Yoshi
Samus
Ganondorf
Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think that Sonic and Link's placement is much too low.

Sonic is currently around 22 in tourney rank lists so that alone should mean he is better than the tierlist dictates.

There is also his matchups which are much too good for him to be among the top 5 worst characters in the game.

This is a similar issue with Link except he doesn't ahve the tourney results to really back him up.
his bad recovery ad subpar close range game really hurt him but his defensive game makes him difficult to approach safely.

Considering his matchups are also better than Captain Falcn and ganondorf, both of which have a noticable gap between the other characters, it seems odd for Link to be the worst character in the game.

There is also bowser who is not that high either. Certainly in comparison to Olimar. yes Bowser did get buffed a good amount but his lack of approaches as well as his overall speed means that he can have difficulty putting his power to use.

I also have to disagree with DDD's placement. while DDD has been doing very well tournament wise he has fallen below GW.
Not to mention that his matchups overall are just not as good in comparison to G&W, ROB , Falco and Marth.

 

[TheGlitchMaster]

ROB's really high up! I had no idea!
I'm happy that my mains so happen to be high teir, even though I play them because I like them.

 

[AgentJGV]

Considering that this is based mostly off of Tournament results, I have to say this is really acturate. However, IMO of whos the best in the game, i deffinatly think that Ganondorf should move up a spot, maybe two. I also think that everyone has underestimated Lucas. I have a friend who KILLS as Lucas. Lastly Wolf should be up just a bit more. But this is just my opinion. Good job Panda!

Hopefully people won't take this as a set in stone, bible tier list.

 

[Ori_bro]

i see some areas that look like the list i sent u but u didnt seperate them into different areas but o well looks pretty good

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I am just trying to find out why link is so low. i have seen some beastly links....

 

[Steeler]

really bad recovery, really fast fall speed, really bad tourney representation.

 

[Anth0ny]

Honestly, this is a great list. I agree with the Yoshi placement (he's higher than everyone thinks), I agree with the Wario placement (he's freaking good, even with the grab releases), and everything just looks good on the whole.

Except Bowser lolz.

 

[OmegaXXII]

ROB's really high up! I had no idea!

this is also puzziling me as well, well all I can say is at least Bowser isn't bottom

 

[B-Down]

Has anyone here seen Reflex's pokemon trainer?

Please, i will try to record it at the next tournement he goes to, but believe me, it's pretty insane and made me rethink his placement.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Why are Dedede and Wario so insanely high? Dedede doesn't have that many advantagous match ups against higher tier characters, just a lot of neutral ones. Granted, he should be very high, top 5 at least, but what outside his tourney results makes him the 3rd best in the game?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Tiers dont mean whether or not the character can be good. any char can be turned into a monster. i assume it is the reflection of the overall base abilities and tournament standings, not just whether or not there is a player who is very good at a char.

 

[Grunt]

It's funny how high Luigi is.
It's ridiculous. XD
If Snake is only the 2nd best in the game "right now" than isn't Luigi / Bowser / Zelda low tier "right now"?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I somehow fail to grasp how Bowser is higher than Peach :/
Come on people, stop underestimating the poor bimbo

 

[chandy]

Link cannot be last and Peach is defo better than Luigi.

 

[Zephramrill]

The list is generally right, but I think the top 5 should look more like this :

Metaknight
Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Wario
King Dedede

 

[fkacyan]

I think ZSS is pretty underrated, personally. But hey, we'll see how well she (And other characters) are doing in a year before we seriously discuss tier position.

 

[Bowser King]

Good list. Love bowsers placing .

 

[Trapt497]

looks good SP, I agree with a lot of it. Good work. And, yeah, panda likes playing bowser now so, I'm not surprised that he put bowser where he did :D.

LOL at link being bottom tier. Oh, and on that topic, imo jgz should be a spot lower than falcon.

 

[darkspatan117]

Good job Panda Olimar should higher than dk and bowser

 

[Yojimbo]

Considering that this is based mostly off of Tournament results, I have to say this is really acturate. However, IMO of whos the best in the game, i deffinatly think that Ganondorf should move up a spot, maybe two. I also think that everyone has underestimated Lucas. I have a friend who KILLS as Lucas. Lastly Wolf should be up just a bit more. But this is just my opinion. Good job Panda!

Hopefully people won't take this as a set in stone, bible tier list.

The flaw in your argument is the ever popular "I have a friend who ***** as..". Any character has the potential to be deadly, sure. But a tier list takes into account match ups and tournament results. Just because one person supposedly does amazing with a specific character, Lucas for instance, doesn't mean they deserve a super high spot on the tier list. It all depends on how Lucas' moveset allows him to stand up to the other characters in the game. Do that for all characters and you have a tier list.

To be honest, Panda, I really like this list. My only complaint would be Wario's placement because I think Marth and others have a better time against others than he does, but this is your opinion. It also seems, unlike a lot of tier lists, realistic. Kudos.

 

[Twilght Link]

I think the list is great but why is Link at the very bottom? I could see 4th-5th to last but not the very bottom

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Alright, time to respond to a few of these concerns.

I think that Sonic and Link's placement is much too low.

Sonic is currently around 22 in tourney rank lists so that alone should mean he is better than the tierlist dictates.

There is also his matchups which are much too good for him to be among the top 5 worst characters in the game.

You may be putting too much stock into the tournament placings list. The tournaments are chosen and added only if they have all top 8. I can submit quite a few local tournaments that have random characters winning, from Olimar to Captain Falcon, and that would bump them up quite a bit on that list. You put a little too much faith into that list. Its a great place to start, especially at the top parts, but not much else. Also, keep in mind that this list is based on HIGH LEVEL PLAY ONLY. And I'm sorry to say, but at high level play neither Sonic nor Link have proven their worth.

Yet.

Has anyone here seen Reflex's pokemon trainer?

I've heard quite a bit about Reflex's PT, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing him play. But, like others have said, having one person that is good with a character does not make the character jump up in the tier lists. An example often used is Taj's Mewtwo, who was an absolute beast in Melee. Yet, Mewtwo is still one of the worst characters in the tier list. One person being good with someone is often an indication that the person is a skilled player, but the character isn't necessarily part of that. If more awesome PTs pop out of nowhere and start placing in tournaments (which I would love because PT is so awesome) then that could change something. Until then, even Reflex's PT won't affect much.

Why are Dedede and Wario so insanely high? Dedede doesn't have that many advantagous match ups against higher tier characters, just a lot of neutral ones. Granted, he should be very high, top 5 at least, but what outside his tourney results makes him the 3rd best in the game?

Again. based on high level play. D3, unlike some other top tier characters, can completely and utterly shut out many people in the game. Its not even funny how bad they get destroyed by him in high level play. Even characters who can't get chaingrabbed struggle against him because they're often light characters who die early yet can't KO him easily because of his weight.

It's funny how high Luigi is.
It's ridiculous. XD
If Snake is only the 2nd best in the game "right now" than isn't Luigi / Bowser / Zelda low tier "right now"?

Because I truly believe where I placed them is correct for the level of their current metagame in comparison to others. Well, Bowser may truly be a bit high right now, I admit, but this is the first I've noticed anybody surprised about Luigi/Zelda.

I somehow fail to grasp how Bowser is higher than Peach :/
Come on people, stop underestimating the poor bimbo

The bimbo is much better than people give her credit for. I can't wait to see more of her in the future.

And, yeah, panda likes playing bowser now so, I'm not surprised that he put bowser where he did :D.

If I let personal bias affect this tier list to that extent, then this would look completely different. No, my placing of Bowser is actually based on watching Sliq do extremely well against some of the best players in the country with Bowser, and the fact that Sliq is not the only good Bowser player that is placing fairly high in tournaments right now.

To be honest, Panda, I really like this list. My only complaint would be Wario's placement because I think Marth and others have a better time against others than he does, but this is your opinion. It also seems, unlike a lot of tier lists, realistic. Kudos.

Yes, one of the few people who hit the nail on the head. This is meant to be a realistic tier list. Not a hopeful one. Not one based on my opinions of potential or hopes of where they'll be in the future. Its meant to be an accurate representation of the current high level Brawl metagame.

Also, Wario is sick at high levels. Surprisingly, he can be one of the most difficult characters to fight against for nearly every person in the game. Although, these fairly recent grab release combos will definitely be a thorn in Wario's side, and I expect him to fall a few places in the future when people learn how to abuse it more.

 

[Roager]

This is pretty good. I'd disagree in a few places, like Link's placement. C. Falcon and Lucas, too. But, aside from a few gripes, this is fairly accurate. Well done.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

The problem with Link is that his recovery is shockingly bad. But I do think he's better than most people credit him for. Most Links need to master the Zair properly. Still...that probably won't take him out of low tier :/

Thank goodness someone actually thinks peach is better than what everyone says she is...I'm getting sick of people saying she's low tier when they haven't even fought Peach (or a good one at least)

I too am surprised at Wario's ranking, both in this list and the supposed current list. His aerials rock and everything but...his range kind of sucks. That grab release thing can really screw him over if it gets done on him

It's a good list though and I'd say it's fairly accurate. Nice job.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Alright, time to respond to a few of these concerns.



You may be putting too much stock into the tournament placings list. The tournaments are chosen and added only if they have all top 8. I can submit quite a few local tournaments that have random characters winning, from Olimar to Captain Falcon, and that would bump them up quite a bit on that list. You put a little too much faith into that list. Its a great place to start, especially at the top parts, but not much else. Also, keep in mind that this list is based on HIGH LEVEL PLAY ONLY. And I'm sorry to say, but at high level play neither Sonic nor Link have proven their worth.

Lucky, Memphischains and Mr 3000 with probably others I can't remember don't count as high level players? The good Sonic mains who go to tournaments generally go to high level ones and generally place well. If by this you're insinating that scrubs winning scrubby tournaments are contributing towards his placing that isn't true and probably holds true for most of the rest of the cast moreso than him. You can tell this because even though he's only placed in the top 8 less than 10 times he's still above characters who've placed more frequently than him.
Perhaps we're weighing on tournament results a bit too much. However, although it means the most in the making of a tier list and he is no where near the bottom 4 in that, as he is nowhere near the 4th worst in match-ups or character skills/potential/whatever you want to call it, I find 4th last place completely absurd.
This isn't a BAWW session, I'm just making points.

 

[Wavekirby]

PT is definitly higher than DK and Wolf imo...

 

[Amide]

I would place Jigglypuff one spot above Sonic, with a semi infinite, lots of potential with rest, an easier time killing and racking damage, and winnable match ups against higher tier characters. But I guess a one spot difference doesn't make a difference.

 

[Snowstalker]

How the hell is Bowser so high?

 

[Fino]

I like how when you addressed people's comments you conveniently left out the one's about olimar's placement, which IMO (which is a bit slanted granted), should be higher.

Could you please explain why he's lower than bowser (I would put him near pika)?


~Fino

 

[Nicole]

I'm glad to see such an interesting tier list. I disagree with just a few characters' placements, but i do agree in other areas (Luigi, DDD, and Wario are right where they should be, and I don't believe Snake is the 2nd best in the game either).

I do agree with Fino that Olimar should be higher for sure, the only thing holding that little dude back is his recovery. Also, how is Sheik above Ness and Lucas? For that matter, how is Sheik above Sonic? If we're talking potential here, I see more potential in Ness, Sonic, Samus, hell, even Link than Sheik (who is very weak, has poor recovery, is very light) That's just my opinion, I have never played a good Sheik in Brawl, and when I use her myself, I die horribly.

But good tier list overall, it does seem pretty accurate.

 

[Trapt497]

If I let personal bias affect this tier list to that extent, then this would look completely different. No, my placing of Bowser is actually based on watching Sliq do extremely well against some of the best players in the country with Bowser, and the fact that Sliq is not the only good Bowser player that is placing fairly high in tournaments right now.

Good point. Sliq's ganondorf is amazing too, but I assume other ganon players aren't placing as high.

How the hell is Bowser so high?

He just answered that like two posts above yours ^^^ see 1st quote.

 

[ph00tbag]

Maybe it's because you're not on the East Coast, but I think you need to look more into that Zamus placing. As someone who plays both her and Toon Link, I'm pretty sure the former is at least better than the latter.

 

[B-Down]

I've heard quite a bit about Reflex's PT, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing him play. But, like others have said, having one person that is good with a character does not make the character jump up in the tier lists. An example often used is Taj's Mewtwo, who was an absolute beast in Melee. Yet, Mewtwo is still one of the worst characters in the tier list. One person being good with someone is often an indication that the person is a skilled player, but the character isn't necessarily part of that. If more awesome PTs pop out of nowhere and start placing in tournaments (which I would love because PT is so awesome) then that could change something. Until then, even Reflex's PT won't affect much.

However, i can counter that example with another similar example. Look at the rise in falco's tier placement upon bombsoldier beating ken, it not only showed a whole new perspective to the smash community, it inspired many players to get better with falco and take him to that new level.

I'm not saying PT needs a change quite yet, but i am saying that if the metagame continues to develop as it currently is, he will rise quite soon.

 

[Fino]

I do agree with Fino that Olimar should be higher for sure, the only thing holding that little dude back is his recovery.

For the most part, olimar's recovery isn't as horrible as everyone takes it to be. You ask the people I normally play with, and after a Big learning curve you don't get gimped all too often. I rarely get gimped because there are many things you can do to prevent it. purple pikmin toss, fair stage spike and tether spike have mind game potential to get people to get back on the stage before olimar dies (VERY COMMON THING where you get up before olimar falls to his death, and allows for a tether), uair, regular pikmin tossing (mind game again to get them to come up early), saving double jump -> olimar being really floaty can really move across the air, and his second jump gives him a lot of distance / maneuverability. All's I'm saying is Olimar has given a bad rep because early on everyone was like 'ZOMG I can gimp teh olimarz so easy. He bad' . The only time I've bashed on olimar's recovery is when I've died out of my own stupidity (ie FF a dair spike, miss, and then can't grab the ledge.... ect), and when I do get gimped... I'm already at like 150% and should be gone anyways. With good DI you shouldn't be flying off the edge to where you can be gimped until you're at a high percent.


~Fino

EDIT: I would also like to mention WAC stops ledge game really quickly. The whistle a bit better than airdodging since it lasts longer and you can attack right out of it. Example, Marth fsmashes you off the edge, you barely stay alive and come floating back, the marth meanwhile dashes and grabs the ledge, oli moves in for a fair spike and all of a sudden marth moves towards him and is about to bair, oli WAC the bair and the can either dair (for spike is at right angle) or fair (to get him away or stage spike him) or if he's close enough tether the edge to tether spike. Olimar's recovery can be nasty if dealt with properly.
I'd also like to add I'm not trying to troll or anything, so I will mention that some of the mentioned is hard to do, and you won't see a lot of olimar's doing it.... consistently I should say, but then again isn't the list all about potential?

//end rant

 

[strider43]

tier list fails
Snake falco - god tier

ROB marth MK GaW - High tier

Everyone else - useless tier

 

[Mmac]

I think you are Underestimating Link, Sonic, PT, Yoshi, and probably some others I can't name on top of my head.

Furthermore, I think you are overestimating Bowser and Ike. Bowser is good and underrated, but ****! He is just way too high. With his current metagame he has right now, there is no way he can compete in that level. Yeah he does pretty good against MetaKnight, but he can't currently compete with the Snakes, Dedede's, G&W's, ROB's, Falco's, Marth's, and everyone else for now. I might be wrong because I don't know much about Bowser, but I'm probably sure he doesn't do well with much of the high ranking characters.

Ike, is just bad. Right now, he has currently the 3rd worst matchup's of the entire roster right now. Even Jigglypuff has better matchups than him. He results are holding up well though, but I won't be surprised if they dropped quickly in the months

But I'm just throwing in my Two Cents.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike, is just bad. Right now, he has currently the 3rd worst matchup's of the entire roster right now. Even Jigglypuff has better matchups than him. He results are holding up well though, but I won't be surprised if they dropped quickly in the months

I'd say that the lack of match-ups is probably due to him just being an underrated character who dropped to that status from being "top tier" (Note the quotation marks). Essentially, I think it's a time issue, and the match-ups (Which are subjective in any case) will clear as people see Ike as a serious character and not as a joke (Fun fact, nobody wants to have a disadvantage versus Ike, for some reason). That's why I'm expecting him to actually RISE is the coming months. Will he make high tier placings? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll just have to see. I, as an Ike mainer, am quite interested in the trend of the general community's opinion of the character.

 

[vanderzant]

I like how your tier list is based around HIGH LEVEL TOURNAMENT PLAY. Who cares if people can win small/local/scrub tournaments with "character x". Good job.

 

[J0RDY]

tier list fails
Snake falco - god tier

ROB marth MK GaW - High tier

Everyone else - useless tier

QFT

Well, only about the falco part, I swear he should be higher than 7th?? Oh well, your right, I do think Mr. G&W will drop down, hopefully falco will replace .