My thoughts on why Advance Techniques will be in

[Charoo]

Either the old one will make it back or a new one will be in for sure. Nintendo likes to put stuff in to make it a bit more "challenging"

having this game going online and a lot of people playing it will not be a good enough reason for Nintendo to take out the advance techniques.

For example, Mario Kart DS. That game is online. There is this thing call snaking. Pretty much, casual player who doesn't use this technique will have a very low chance of winning agaisnt someone who does. Mario Kart DS is an extremely popular game but this "advance technique" is still in. People use it online and they win matches.

Of course, you can say like: "but Nintendo didn't know that someone was going to use that consistently and make it become too good." This statement might be true. If it is true, then perhaps Mario Kart wii will not have snaking or some new technique anymore. Same thing for Brawl.

Which is why I will bring up another game. Pokemon.

Pokemon is by far, one of the most played game in the world and is extremely successful. People play all the way from young kids to adult people. Teams are also limitless. Still, Pokemon have hidden stats that can be given to them to make them stronger. Killing certain pokemon will give you certain stat boost. Their nature also effects their stats. This what the pokemon community might consider "advance technique". It was implemented since Gold/Silver and a new kind of stat is added each generation.

Pokemon diamond/pearl was announce to finally be wi-fi. This means that so many people r going to play together that it's going to be too freaking good. Then what about the advance technique? Well, nintendo did the opposite of what people expected I guess. They added more hidden stats into Pokemon Diamond/Pearl!

So what happen? People got owned. Every1 who have a properly trained team will beat any1 that battles them pretty much. Even when Pokemon Battle Revolution for the wii comes out. Nintendo didn't change anything and casual players still get owned.

So what now? PBR although doesn't have a leader board. It actually have a hidden ranking system for "playing with anyone." This means that if you never win then you will play some1 else who never win. Then people with good teams will fight each other.

So I guess I have two points about this thread.

1. Advance technique will not be removed just because it's going online or because more casual players will play.

2. Nintendo might add an invisible rankings system so that you will play people that are around your level. If they did it with their main stream pokemon game then they can do it for brawl too.

inb4engrish

 

[error_alt_delete]

I can believe the hidden ranking system part, that would be very helpful and appease everyone. however these advanced techs are never put purposefully into a game, and from the looks of brawl they want to avoid them, so I doubt we will have all of the ones from the last game(as we now know WD was removed).

NORE: I am glad they were removed but I want to note I desire to remain indifferent on this subject. I can use any ADVTECH but at the same time I dont care for them remaining as I dont find them all that great.

 

[Ojanya]

I don't know what I keep missing. L-canceling, short hop, fast fall, wall jump, all still in. Wavedashing, which was an exploit, out. So what exactly is the big adv techs debate about? I'm not saying I'm right, I'm more asking the question to clarify. I'm sure people will find more ways to push this game to it's limit.

 

[Tek32]

scratch what i said

 

[1ofMany_ppl]

No matter the game, if their are people who play it a lot, their will always be advanced techniques. I'm sure in almost every game made their are AT's. Whether it be being able to quickly switch from one gun to another faster, reloading faster (Halo) Going faster than running or rolling by continuiosly side stepping ( Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time). Jumping further by sliding close to an edge and quickly jumping. ( Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow, Megaman games). Getting more jumps by throwing a bomb upwards and using up B to hit it an be able to repeat. ( SSBM Link move) No matter the game there will Always be AT's wheither the creator intended it or not and Brawl is no different

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

I like your thinking. Have a cookie.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

Pokemon is by far, one of the most played game in the world and is extremely successful.

Apart from this ridiculous overestimation, it was a good read.
Can't say I agree, but it had some points.

 

[F@lc0-san]

Apart from this ridiculous overestimation, it was a good read.
Can't say I agree, but it had some points.

Dont underestimate Pokemon, its played by many

 

[Eszett]

I would think that it is impossible to not let advanced techniques slip into this game.

This is obviously going to be the largest Smash game, in terms of sheer compiled code - I don't need any "prophet" to tell me that. With this volume of code, we are going to receive over 24 characters, many more stages, new physics, and more diverse attacking options. The job of the competitive community is to take that code and exploit every last inch of it, then assess what sorts of exploitations are most conducive to victory. That is the essence of turning Smash into a game based almost purely on theory.

To deny that there will be a new set of advanced techniques and a tier list would be foolish at best and moronic at worst. These techniques and tier list already exist. All the competitive community does is unearth and exploit them.

 

[Kio Iranez]

An advanced technique is either an in-game mechanic, like teching and short hopping, or an exploit, like wavedashing, and believe it or not, l-canceling. It is already confirmed that most of these are in again, so...

what exactly is the big adv techs debate about?

 

[Igneous42]

I don't know what I keep missing. L-canceling, short hop, fast fall, wall jump, all still in. Wavedashing, which was an exploit, out. So what exactly is the big adv techs debate about? I'm not saying I'm right, I'm more asking the question to clarify. I'm sure people will find more ways to push this game to it's limit.

because other than maybe L Cancel those are all things that casual players would use too.

 

[gangstajuice656]

Shadow 4 Brawl!!!!

 

[Undrdog]

Was about to post this in the other thread but it got nerfed by who I suspect was Mic. >_> lol Anyway I'm just going to repost it here because I'm lazy like that.

As off topic as it is, Halo 3 is a flop and is not selling anywhere near it's expected rate. Many who bought on hype have sold their copies back to local trade-in stores.

And I agree that they were taken out by mistake. Wavedashing is NOT that big of an advantage. It only comes into play in very high level matches. Wavedashing is just a gimmick to casual to semi-decent competitive players. It only becomes a game changer when it's used for precise spacing. And as you can probably deduce, players that are on that level would beat casual players without the need for Wavedashing.

L-Canceling was intentional in all the games and it's in.
Short Hopping was intentional in all the games and it's in.
Powershielding is in.

I mean this ISN'T Snaking in MarioKart. Wavedashing doesn't make or break a match against equally skilled players. Anyone that says it does is probably just much worse then the person they are playing to begin with. Wavedashing removed it probably wouldn't change the outcome of the game.

Anyway to finish up, Wavedashing got removed as a byproduct of multi dodges. Had they not removed directional dodging people could dodge recover straight across the screen. Without multi dodges the air game couldn't be rehashed the way they intended.

Sorry to say it, but there is zero evidence of a malicious removal of Wavedashing. And apart from the WD what other advanced techs have been removed? You could argue L-Canceling, but it's still there even if it's just in a different form.

 

[Igneous42]

Was about to post this in the other thread but it got nerfed by who I suspect was Mic. >_> lol Anyway I'm just going to repost it here because I'm lazy like that.

As off topic as it is, Halo 3 is a flop and is not selling anywhere near it's expected rate. Many who bought on hype have sold their copies back to local trade-in stores.

And I agree that they were taken out by mistake. Wavedashing is NOT that big of an advantage. It only comes into play in very high level matches. Wavedashing is just a gimmick to casual to semi-decent competitive players. It only becomes a game changer when it's used for precise spacing. And as you can probably deduce, players that are on that level would beat casual players without the need for Wavedashing.

L-Canceling was intentional in all the games and it's in.
Short Hopping was intentional in all the games and it's in.
Powershielding is in.

I mean this ISN'T Snaking in MarioKart. Wavedashing doesn't make or break a match against equally skilled players. Anyone that says it does is probably just much worse then the person they are playing to begin with. Wavedashing removed it probably wouldn't change the outcome of the game.

Anyway to finish up, Wavedashing got removed as a byproduct of multi dodges. Had they not removed directional dodging people could dodge recover straight across the screen. Without multi dodges the air game couldn't be rehashed the way they intended.

Sorry to say it, but there is zero evidence of a malicious removal of Wavedashing. And apart from the WD what other advanced techs have been removed? You could argue L-Canceling, but it's still there even if it's just in a different form.

While I try to be neutral (a casual player but don't ***** about competative ones using advanced techs) wouldn't that mean at eforall after just a bit of playing brawl they should be able to combo and play almost the same as they did in melee? Because that definitely wasn't the case. There were a number of pros there, and as was I. I was playing on equal level with them and I definitely m not a competitive player. What was the advanced tech that was removed that changed that? Because everything people are listing that has returned was being used.

(note: don't get mad at me, I'm somewhat playing devils advocate here)

 

[Crispy4001]

This thread would have worked better as a parody.


Anyways, speculating about this is pointless because we don't have to. Many AT's are already in.

 

[Undrdog]

The better you are at a game, the more you are effected by minor changes. I wasn't there so that's about all I can say.

 

[Cosine]

Apart from this ridiculous overestimation, it was a good read.
Can't say I agree, but it had some points.

It really is, you probly just said that to hide the fack that you play it

 

[Igneous42]

The better you are at a game, the more you are effected by minor changes. I wasn't there so that's about all I can say.

I'll take that, I could see how the physics engine being different could change your game a ton.

 

[Hitzel]

While I try to be neutral (a casual player but don't ***** about competative ones using advanced techs) wouldn't that mean at eforall after just a bit of playing brawl they should be able to combo and play almost the same as they did in melee? Because that definitely wasn't the case. There were a number of pros there, and as was I. I was playing on equal level with them and I definitely m not a competitive player. What was the advanced tech that was removed that changed that? Because everything people are listing that has returned was being used.

(note: don't get mad at me, I'm somewhat playing devils advocate here)

Those pros had just as much time to play the game as you did. Brawl isn't Melee, so everyone's going to have to re-learn how to play. It as a 4-day event. The pros didn't learn to do these ATs on command in that short time.

You could assume that since Brawl has different ATs than Melee, the pros were "taken down" to your level.w That's true to an extent... but over time it wont matter.

I befriended a few Halo pros while working on Shadowrun. When Halo 3 first came out, I could play toe-to-toe with them. But now that we've all learned the game, they are significantly better than me and I can't compete on equal ground.

The same thing's going to happen with brawl. Once everyone learns how to play the game, once everyone has the time to learn AT's and the rules of the game, the pros will rise up out of the crowd because they are the better players. It's that simple.



BTW, UndrDog, I fully agree with Halo 3 being a failure because of Bungie's decisions to make Halo 3 for the "casual crowd" and remove depth and advanced techniques virtually everywhere.

 

[AlphaZealot]

From what I heard Gimpy/Hugs were the best players there. Aside from this I highly doubt people were playing to win so much as they were ******* around for the sake of discovery. I played H3 with some pros a few days before it was released to the public and I actually won a slayer game (Ghandi, from Carbon, took second). It wasn't because the playing field was even, Ghandi just spent much of the game ******* around and killing people when he felt like it, I was mostly doing the same thing but once I found a few techniques that netted me kills I just stuck with that the entire match.

As off topic as it is, Halo 3 is a flop and is not selling anywhere near it's expected rate. Many who bought on hype have sold their copies back to local trade-in stores.

I don't know how true this is. Halo 3 is still one of the most played Xbox Live games and it has sold somewhere around 7 million copies (give or take a million) in only 4 months time. Trade ins or not, that quantity in that short time period is impressive.

 

[Igneous42]

Those pros had just as much time to play the game as you did. Brawl isn't Melee, so everyone's going to have to re-learn how to play. It as a 4-day event. The pros didn't learn to do these ATs on command in that short time.

You could assume that since Brawl has different ATs than Melee, the pros were "taken down" to your level.w That's true to an extent... but over time it wont matter.

I befriended a few Halo pros while working on Shadowrun. When Halo 3 first came out, I could play toe-to-toe with them. But now that we've all learned the game, they are significantly better than me and I can't compete on equal ground.

The same thing's going to happen with brawl. Once everyone learns how to play the game, once everyone has the time to learn AT's and the rules of the game, the pros will rise up out of the crowd because they are the better players. It's that simple.



BTW, UndrDog, I fully agree with Halo 3 being a failure because of Bungie's decisions to make Halo 3 for the "casual crowd" and remove depth and advanced techniques virtually everywhere.

but I guess thats my question. Which advanced techs are we talking? Which ones are making such a big difference? because honestly I don't even get why things like fast fall, crouch canceling and short hop are considered advanced techs. So the main two that were missing that I'm aware of are wavedashing and L-Cancel (which is in the game, but not in the same form and peple didn't figure that out till what day 4?)

(again not saying this to be like "pro's are only good because of blah blah blah)

From what I heard Gimpy/Hugs were the best players there. Aside from this I highly doubt people were playing to win so much as they were ******* around for the sake of discovery. I played H3 with some pros a few days before it was released to the public and I actually won a slayer game (Ghandi, from Carbon, took second). It wasn't because the playing field was even, Ghandi just spent much of the game ******* around and killing people when he felt like it, I was mostly doing the same thing but once I found a few techniques that netted me kills I just stuck with that the entire match.



I don't know how true this is. Halo 3 is still one of the most played Xbox Live games and it has sold somewhere around 7 million copies (give or take a million) in only 4 months time. Trade ins or not, that quantity in that short time period is impressive.

I played Gimpy ( and maybe hugs?) and we got to sudden death, where I ended up killing myself.

ANd Halo 3 is the fastest selling game of all time.....so unless they managed to pretty much not sell after day one i'm pretty sure it was a success. seeing as how because of Halo 3 the 360 came back on top worldwide (a few weeks before the Wii topped the 360)

 

[Help!]

I stopped reading the post, but In my opinion nintendo has been putting advanced techniques in many of it's games especially the multiplayer games. All the Super Smash Bros. so far with L canceling and such. I recall something in the gamecube F-Zero, Mario Kart DS, I'm sure there are way more games, but i never bothered to look around for the advanced techs in most games, but it always seemed like nintendo always added something to make the game more competitive.

 

[Undrdog]

Also note that Hugs plays Samus, and from what I've heard she's been tweaked a ton. And Gimpyfish plays Bowser. Not that that gives him a disadvantage but I doubt he's and easy character to play when you have no idea how your opponents can attack you.

However I agree with AZ, especially in Gimpy's case. He's like our news reporter now-a-days. Without him we'd have much less to go on then we do. He even managed to find out that something as obscure as Powershielding is back.

And yes AZ, the number of sales killed. Had it been a movie it would've killed at the box office the first week, then fall short to "Land Before Time: 39" straight to DVD.

Bioshock and Call of Duty is what did it though. It's sort of like and undefeated sports team losing a close game. Then all the other teams figures out they can compete with this juggernaut and starts pulling all the punches.

 

[Psydon]

It's rather funny that there's so much discussion over the presence of ATs. Truly, we've only actually lost two ATs from Melee to Brawl: DJC and Wavedashing (and there is still a form of wavelanding). L-cancelling has changed, but it still exists.

From the videos and .gifs I've seen, it would seem that there may even be more advanced techniques in Brawl than in Melee, and it also seems like a lot of them have to do with momentum (stopping outward knockback with fairs, for example). But I will say, they're going to be easier to pull off IMO. Add that to the (somewhat) simplification of the game's mechanics and you have a game with depth that plenty of people will get into, but only the great few will tap for its full potential.

 

[Igneous42]

Also note that Hugs plays Samus, and from what I've heard she's been tweaked a ton. And Gimpyfish plays Bowser. Not that that gives him a disadvantage but I doubt he's and easy character to play when you have no idea how your opponents can attack you.

However I agree with AZ, especially in Gimpy's case. He's like our news reporter now-a-days. Without him we'd have much less to go on then we do. He even managed to find out that something as obscure as Powershielding is back.

And yes AZ, the number of sales killed. Had it been a movie it would've killed at the box office the first week, then fall short to "Land Before Time: 39" straight to DVD.

Bioshock and Call of Duty is what did it though. It's sort of like and undefeated sports team losing a close game. Then all the other teams figures out they can compete with this juggernaut and starts pulling all the punches.

I don't think I played Hugs, I don't know who he was or what he looked like. The only 2 people I remember playing for certain were Gimpy, Me Link him Bowser (which would give me a bit of an advantage in that Link is one of the least changed characters. I was using him essentially the exact same way I do in melee). The only other players I remember playing that (I assume)were pro were a peach user who I played twice, won once lost once and some guy who always wore his hat backwards I don't know if I played him once or twice but I know I played him at least once and lost (I was Meta Knight he was diddy).

I think probably the main thing is the fact that it's an entire new physics engine. People move differently making it impossible to use your old timing in combos. It was definitely different enough that I could see where your advanced melee skill wouldn't carry over. Though the basics are pretty easy to pick up.

That said I do think it will be a bit less technical and probably a bit easier to break into the competitive scene.

 

[webrunner]

There needs to be a separation made between "advanced techniques" like fast falling, which seriously anyone who plays the game for more than a few hours ends up discovering by accident (for instance, I always fast fall, but I never considered it to be an 'advanced technique' until I looked up lists of advanced techniques), "advanced techniques" like L-Cancelling and Powershielding, which are not quite as obvious but are obviously intended, and "advanced techniques" like Wavedashing which are unintended exploitations of game physics, which fundamentally change the way that the game is played from a movement perspective, that nobody can have a hope to discover on their own unless they happen to get extremely lucky.

To make the comparison again: powerslide boosts in Mario Kart are intended, but not Snaking which is an application of powerslide boosting along a straightaway in a way that doesn't make any logical sense.

Maybe we can change them to "Advanced Techniques" "Pro Techniques" and "Physics Tricks" or something?

 

[The Kirby Kong]

Dont underestimate Pokemon, its played by many

Yes, by many Nintendo console gamers.

If you're gonna compare Pokemon with PC games or *GASP* non-computer related games, you'll see that pokemon is nowhere even close. That's why I think it's a bit of an overestimation.

 

[Igneous42]

Yes, by many Nintendo console gamers.

If you're gonna compare Pokemon with PC games or *GASP* non-computer related games, you'll see that pokemon is nowhere even close. That's why I think it's a bit of an overestimation.

He's got a point there. Most of the big money making competitive games are PC games. If your going "pro" to make money chances are it's on a PC game

 

[Crispy4001]

Maybe we can change them to "Advanced Techniques" "Pro Techniques" and "Physics Tricks" or something?

I don't think there needs to be a distinction. Even with techniques casuals may use (DI, teching, fastfalling, etc ), you can only use them so effectively if it's not a conscious realization.

To 'discover' a technique that isn't explicitly obvious or already outlined in the manual/basic controls demo, you either have to take curiosity to look it up online or make the mental connection yourself. I consider any such maneuver 'advanced,' simply because they're things casual players won't be aware of or care to explore.