MY Thoughts On Luigi...Is This The End Of His Metagame?

[The Grinch]

So after a somewhat brief hiatus on Brawl, I came back to play again and of course have been working on Luigi for some time still. My last tourny however was Rejk's Quizno tournies in Cerritos, CA. They're monthly so I get a bit of serious Brawl in pretty decently.

After the tier list was dropped, there has been plenty of discussions of Luigi and how he's evolving, evolved, and if he CAN evolve any further.

So far, the answer is-----no? Seems like it.

Now, this is in no way a thread stating that Luigi is done for/a bad character/empty of AT's in the future. No. This is ME, and if any of you know me out there (And I KNOW you do) I've been playing Luigi comp for YEARS since melee became hype in the competitive scene. I've been to Evo's before I had a handle, I've been to tournies out of town, Ken's biweeklies when I used to live 10 minutes from the guy's place.

So....what's going on? Well, I thought I could provoke a little thought right now.

As I said, there's been lots of discussions about how to raise Luigi to the "next level." I mean, there's some great dedicated Luigi players on these boards. You guys do your best to keep him up.

I think everyone's missing something though. I don't think it's so much that, the Luigi community, can't get any better. I just think---no, BELIEVE that as of this moment right now, as of this very point in time, LUIGI can not evolve at the moment.

What?

Look at some of the [community agreed] great Luigi players on AIB, youtube and here on SB, and tell me something---do you see something EXTREMELY different from them? Because I don't see a whole lot of difference.

Basically, what I'm saying is----Luigi is definitely a great character, buffed up from Melee in the sense that he's much easier to pick up and play now. However, really, Luigi himself, has been mastered, IN MY OPINION (just wanted to emphasize that before everyone complains to me).

Generally, a good player can use a good character, with a few different play options. I think, honestly the problem is, Luigi isn't very in depth PAST THE BASICS. One of the bigger reasons in fact that it's so hard to watch Luigi Brawl videos and say, "**** that person is an amazing Luigi player!," after a while, is because to a point it's simply...well, basics.

There's not too many AT's for Luigi right now, and I'm not saying that AT's make a character. But I am saying, that characters are like our canvas: A good, solid canvas is great, but if you could only paint 1 or 2 pictures on it---you won't get far, or do much else with it.

The idea is the same---Luigi at the moment, for lack of better words, is a canvas that we all seem to paint the same way. Now whether it's just because we all are looking for the wrong moves/strategies, or just trying TOO hard, is really anyone's guess. But, being realistic, in a competitive setting, Luigi at one point, comes down to being an extraordinary player at reading your opponent, but you only have so many approaches. THAT is what is making Luigi seem "stale" lately, and why he doesn't win so many tournaments. Not to mention, that MK is a hella tough fight for the poor guy...ha ha =]

Now I know Brawl in general made playing way different. It's hardly based on mechanical tech, but more on mental tech (Which I think is pretty sweet) BUT your mental focus, and mind games are somewhat limited by what your character can do. THAT is where Luigi is slipping at the moment.

Yes he was low tier in Melee too---but man, thanks to a number of things (Wave dashing, CHAIN THROWING UP THROWS, much better tech chasing thanks to WD'ing/longer dash dancing) Luigi had so much to learn about, to try out and practice. You could play Luigi and learn to space perfectly timed WD'd downsmashes, uthrow juggle lots of characters, and so many other things with his set of tools in Melee. (NOTE: THIS IS NOT OPEN FOR MELEE VS BRAWL DISCUSSION, I'm just using examples of how his metagame has changed. I'll appreciate that this rule does not go unnoticed, thank you.)

Let me summarize this shortly to make more sense: Luigi simply only has BASICS (Because, honestly, if you consider fireball zoning, spacing and UpB traps/baits as "advanced Luigi play," I think you want Luigi to be a little better than you can admit). Basics are definitely key to any character, but if you don't have different approaches, tricks and strats to go with, you'll be stuck in the same spot forever.

I hope you guys didn't misinterpret this post. It is IN NO WAY a post to say that Luigi is a bad character, or that players can't win tournies with him, I'm just saying, the Luigi metagame as of right now, is stuck for a reason. And that reason in my eyes, is simply that Luigi isn't changing for anyone---everyone's mental game and focus is progressing, but Luigi isn't.

With that I leave for [hopefully] wonderful and intelligent discussion, as I'm curious to know what you guys think on this topic, and what I had to say. I'm sorry if I repeated myself so much, I tend to do that.

Oh, and one last thing. Some people might read this and think that I'm done playing Luigi in Brawl....annnnd in some way, I think it's sort of true *gasp*. It's not that I'm giving up on Luigi....it's that I've become EXTREMELY fond of another character---and, scary as it sounds, I'm having loads more fun with him than Luigi in Brawl right now, and I'm seriously considering changing mains because I feel like I can do so much more with mind games with my current favorite. Curious who it is? Look alllllllllll the way at the bottom of the tier list...ha ha.

Anyways, thank you so much for reading all this, and thanks in advance for your input.

~The Greench

 

[MasterToshima]

first post.

Hehe, I guess ure right. Metagame is not evolving. And yea it's true that those amazing Aerials seem like it's a pro playing but it's really basics.

Hope for better Luigi in Super Smash Brothers ***** Slap for a console coming soon!

 

[Judge Judy]

Maybe if you could lend a hand with advancing Mario's metagame since almost no one even really understands the cape or the FLUDD's physics yet.

PS: I love Luigi, but I'm just a sucker for someone with a lot untapped potential

 

[LuigiKing]

I have to agree with you on this one, and I really hate to do so. Problem with Luigi is that there simply isn't much room to grow, like you said. I've been playing Sheik a lot lately, and even though I have less fun and I'm clearly not as good as Sheik, I feel like I have a lot of room to grow technically. With Luigi I am struggling to advance my game, and anything I start to do better I could apply to another character anyway. With Sheik I feel like the technical aspect is huge, which is great. Either way though, heres to finding out new tricks with Luigi I sure hope we do, because I still simply have too much fun playing him to do anything else. I got dash attack cancelling down, and I guess that helped, and I've been working with buffered things out of air dodges, but thats about it atm.

 

[Judge Judy]

I have to agree with you on this one, and I really hate to do so. Problem with Luigi is that there simply isn't much room to grow, like you said. I've been playing Sheik a lot lately, and even though I have less fun and I'm clearly not as good as Sheik, I feel like I have a lot of room to grow technically. With Luigi I am struggling to advance my game, and anything I start to do better I could apply to another character anyway. With Sheik I feel like the technical aspect is huge, which is great. Either way though, heres to finding out new tricks with Luigi I sure hope we do, because I still simply have too much fun playing him to do anything else. I got dash attack cancelling down, and I guess that helped, and I've been working with buffered things out of air dodges, but thats about it atm.

So does that mean you'll lend a helping hand to the Mario boards? *Waits for the "NO!!! GET THE **** OFF THE LUIGI BOARDS TROLL!!!"*

 

[The Grinch]

It's great to see some Luigi regulars come in here and agreeing with me (Also thanks to you all so far for reading my long post.), good to know I'm not alone on Luigi's game as of right now.

@Judy: I'd actually love to give a hand at Mario tact's, as I really really love the way he plays in both Melee and Brawl. In fact he was a secret love of mine in Melee, ha ha. I think he deserves a HIGHER spot than Luigi in the Brawl tier list considering that Luigi peaks earlier than Mario in my experience....hmm I feel the threats coming on, ha ha.

Anyways, don't let this post stop you guys from trying to learn new things with Luigi, or take home that tournament victory. Keep on chugging. Let's keep this discussion going though, I'm curious if I have any opposers or nay sayers.

 

[Judge Judy]

I don't know where Mario were honestly go. There's some trippy glitches surrounding the cape, and the FLUDD might be a counter move godsend against G&W. As far as Luigi, I find him a lot more straightforward, but that's not bad. Luigi fights well because of natural priority and strength. Mario plays oddly since he has a lot of good natural strengths but also relys on ATs to make up for some shortcomings. Mario's been handling his ATs decently but to rely on ATs makes him a difficult character to use.

Ramblings aside, Luigi's metagame looks good but it also looks like it won't be seeing any incredible breakthroughs either. Mario is in a more grayish area since it still isn't clear how much Mario is capable of. It doesn't mean Mario will be better than Luigi, it means that Mario has nowhere to go but up. Luigi might go up a bit, but he'll probally stay around the same area of where he already is.

What I want is that the boards can collaborate together instead of fighting who's better than who. Luigi's have something to brag about now, but no one knows what other tier list will have.

I have no idea what I'm talking about but it sounds kinda intellegent right?

 

[chic]

even if luigis skill can only reach to a certain point i doubt anyone has reached it. i don't think there is anyone who has 100% mastered luigi... and i don't mean just tech wise but mentally as well. someone who knows how to play crazy mind games, can read their enemies perfectly etc. i think we will know with out a doubt when someone has hit that point and until someone does reaches that pinnacle i don't think we will know how far luigi will befrom mk... even if he can never be as good as him, which will probably still be the case, i will never stop playing him.

 

[Judge Judy]

even if luigis skill can only reach to a certain point i doubt anyone has reached it. i don't think there is anyone who has 100% mastered luigi... and i don't mean just tech wise but mentally as well. someone who knows how to play crazy mind games, can read their enemies perfectly etc. i think we will know for sure when someone has hit that point and until someone does reaches that pinnacle i don't think we will know how far luigi will befrom mk... even if he can never be as good as him, which will probably still be the case, i will never stop playing him.

Could you play Mario too, just for sh*ts and giggles if nothing else?

 

[The Grinch]

even if luigis skill can only reach to a certain point i doubt anyone has reached it. i don't think there is anyone who has 100% mastered luigi... and i don't mean just tech wise but mentally as well. someone who knows how to play crazy mind games, can read their enemies perfectly etc. i think we will know with out a doubt when someone has hit that point and until someone does reaches that pinnacle i don't think we will know how far luigi will befrom mk... even if he can never be as good as him, which will probably still be the case, i will never stop playing him.

That's just it. I think as far as LUIGI can go, he's reached it as of right now. What people do with him in the mental aspect of the game---relates to all characters, which is why I keep emphasizing that Luigi has sort of peaked, but not the Luigi player.

Excellent points though. Like I said it's great and I hope more people continue using Luigi and finding out if there's more potential to him.

 

[Cirno]

I can see where you're coming from. Having recently watched several Luigi brawls, I can honestly say there's not too much variation there. However, I will have to say I think this is one fault the players will have to take. It's understandable that people want to use what works best, but I believe it's this assumption that's hindering Luigi's progress.

How many of us have experimented with an infinite tornado mind game? Attempted a misfire at the start?

Have we even got all the basics yet? I think knowing exactly where we get a missle-wallcling falls into that category and I don't recall reading such a topic. Knowing what percent does the random misfire have can help too(Think in terms of the filtering system for G&W's judgement.)

If B-sticking a Pk fire gives Lucas a backwards thrust and tapping the C-stick while using a Nikita give Snake more control what can Luigi get from such methods.

I could go on, but seeing as I myself haven't done too much to advance Luigi's metagame as of late, I feel bad saying "we" aren't doing enough when "I" have barely done anything.

):

In any case though, Luigi's not done yet, and neither are his players. If anything, we're just getting warmed up.

Ah~
I would like to recommend

"Show me something NEW - How to become one of the greats" by Gimpyfish62
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190956​

For anyone who hasn't read it. A re-read got me thinking a bit on what aspects of Brawl in general haven't I explored, and can be applied to Luigi.


Aaaand, just saying, I approve of the love for the good ol' Captain. He deserves more, even if it means Luigi becomes a secondary for one our intelligent members.
;-;

 

[ALiAsVee]

Mario and Luigi require the most amount of technical ability out of the entire roster. They don't have many special "AT's" (most of the time gimmicks) so they can only rely on the basics, and how well they implement them. They have always been characters you just need to be dedicated to to do well with. Spacing, SHFFing, fireball zoning, etc, are all basic stuff that need to be taken higher than the average player who doesn't use mario or luigi. Don't expect a miracle cure in the metagame, the only way to expand it at this point is to delve deeper into his basic moveset, figure out new ways to use it, and further understand its behavior under different circumstances.

 

[chic]

Luigi has sort of peaked, but not the Luigi player.

ok i can agree with that... but if luigi the char has peaked i look forward to seeing how the mental aspect will evolve since thats the only thing we can work on improving...

 

[WIGI]

very interesting. although i think your may be a little pessimistic you do raise many agreeable points. Ive seen people saying recently "if we could nail the spike 100% of the time luigi would go up in teh teir list"


uhmmmm.... no? you would be better, but in no way would that effect luigis metagame. we already know its their and we know how to use it, and as with all his moves, we need to find new ways to use it.

i don;t think we should LOOK for new things, we should play Luigi as hes ment to be played. then eventually someone wil go "what the crap just happened" save the replay analize it and be like
"sweetness"

i unno. maybey im just stubborn. witch is quite possible. im also biast, luigi is like. part of my life lol.
but yeah. the next step we must take to inhance luig is simply nothing. there is nothing we can do to advance this character, but in doing nothing does nto mean that luigi will not be advancing. aside from me trying to figure out a way to combo into taunt spike. (im close) im not going to worry to much about advancing luigi. il just wait and see what happens.

thats my 2 cents

 

[luigidude90]

very interesting. although i think your may be a little pessimistic you do raise many agreeable points. Ive seen people saying recently "if we could nail the spike 100% of the time luigi would go up in teh teir list"


uhmmmm.... no? you would be better, but in no way would that effect luigis metagame. we already know its their and we know how to use it, and as with all his moves, we need to find new ways to use it.

i don;t think we should LOOK for new things, we should play Luigi as hes ment to be played. then eventually someone wil go "what the crap just happened" save the replay analize it and be like
"sweetness"

i unno. maybey im just stubborn. witch is quite possible. im also biast, luigi is like. part of my life lol.
but yeah. the next step we must take to inhance luig is simply nothing. there is nothing we can do to advance this character, but in doing nothing does nto mean that luigi will not be advancing. aside from me trying to figure out a way to combo into taunt spike. (im close) im not going to worry to much about advancing luigi. il just wait and see what happens.

thats my 2 cents

basically you just said everything i was gonna say cept ive never actually tried comboing into the taunt spike. im currently investigating the infinate tornado but other than that things will be found. idk but it seems when you are looking for something its harder to find just give it time nd things will come up.

 

[PolMex23]

I agree with you, an my heart hurts knowing your almost 100% correct.

Im at that level right now in FL that if I come across anyone other than MK players, than I feel I can beat them...Why?

Let me tell you this. I am in love with Brawl Luigi for one reason an basically, for that one reason only...

UP - B!!!!!

This is why im known in FL. This is why most people fear me. Yet, why am I not winning tourneys?

Because like you said, but ill twist it a little...

You see, I have a talent. im good in chess, an it caries to my gaming ability.
I can analyze and react very quickly. After a while I will see your patterns, an punish you for them.
I love how Luigi is one of the top punishers in the game. The problem is...
I know you are going to foward tilt with snake...so in my head quickly I pull may possible options i can do, but all of them gets canceled, other than to shield, roll back or fowards, or jump...Very frustrating. The problem with Luigi is that his approaches are very limited but, why approach?

The adrenaline of playing Luigi is amazing. When I switch to Snake (I win almost everytime, my Snake is pretty good) to fight a metaknight i feel bored, lame, just really astonished, of how amazing Snake is as a character. An when I play Snake, or Dk, or DDD, or MK, I wish I had their options.

But I don't as a Luigi player. So, I use what I have. What I have is obvious, but, thats where Brawl Metagame comes in. It's all about your strat, planning, reading, just overall brain power.

We mostly have all of Luigis tools laid out in front of us. Untill we master his spike, than we would basically have a complete set.
The only way we will get better with Luigi is if we better ourselves, an that is why we are not placing high. The only way we win is when we don't make mistakes an we take advantage of every single ****ing opportunity, which sucks, but well, thats what we get for loving Luigi.

Next tourney, I will switch to Snake when I feel the match-up calls for it. Which is only for Metaknight. But, it might be for others.

i win the next tourney we should close this thread an watch my vids xD. Only If I win xD

 

[hippiedude92]

Eh I'm soooooooooooooooooo lazy to read a wall of text. But I do agree with you in some points. Brawl ain't deep as Melee. There isn't alot of techiques that can truly change Luigi's meta-game in a positive matter. Of course there's too much to improve on like tourney results etc etc

 

[Faithkeeper]

(like others) i hate to say it, but i think you are right... it's really unfortunate, Luigi's lots of fun to use, but i don't see any room for improvement in Luigi's game other than the dair spike that could help him much...

 

[The Grinch]

@PolMex: Hey man, I believe you can do it. I won a tourny a couple months back with Luigi, so it's doable (Local hosted tourny, 25-30 people). Hell if I can beat Nightside's Marth 2-0 in a set, you can go real far =] Snake is actually even the least of Luigi's problems in terms of the high tier...I played Pyschomidget's snake and only lost by a stock each round! I truly believe I could've won. He's a great player, and an amazing dude, gave me props on my Luigi at the time.

It's great to see so many Luigi regulars coming out to discuss this now, and you have all valid points. I don't mean to sound pessimistic (@ WIGI ) but I'm glad you can look past that and see the issues I've presented.

By the way, hella tight to see so many people wanting to bring Luigi to the next level right now. I think you might have made a great point too WIGI, that we shouldn't be looking for new stuff with Luigi, but rather perfect it. And let the things---come to us.

Ladies and gentleman, Luigi is FAR from gone, and even if I do switch mains, I will do everything I can to improve his standing, his strats and metagame, to help out the community. I've been doing it with Luigi for 5+ years now, I won't stop when I've hit a speed bump.

...Really though, Captain Amazing is seriously just hella good fun for me right now, I think I'll even play him at my next tourny.

 

[TheMann]

I can't say I agree. The game hasn't even been out a year yet, I believe there is so much more to discover with all characters in the game, especially luigi. Personally I believe they key is his Up + B. Its kinda like Melee Jiggs. If we find more ways to link into his Up + B then that would change everything. You never know maybe in 2-3 years Metaknights and Snakes will fear Luigis . Maybe it'll happen maybe it wont.

 

[PolMex23]

Captain Falcon.....

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ3LxEAyhmU&feature=related

 

[PolMex23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBwwUfuJZr8&feature=related

 

[WIGI]

You never know maybe in 2-3 years Metaknights and Snakes will fear Luigis .

they already do? at least the ones i play MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... but seriosly. i think were pretty much done for upb setups. as for now ima go work on my taunt spike setups. =] more fullfilling that a lame up b.

=]

 

[The Grinch]

Ha ha, so I had an interesting last couple of nights.

I went out the last couple of nights including last night, me and RACE went to play some SFIV at Arcade Infinity (/drool, now all other fighters look like **** MUST PLAY MORE SFIV!!!) annnnyways, I ended up playing some different comp with Luigi on the side this week. Good and great players alike, I had a blast since I hadn't had any real comp in such a long time, my last tourny I went to was a little over 1.5 months ago.

Lots of great snakes, MKs and RACE's amazing Wario, but I was simply able to out think most of them. I even met someone who I didn't know, but apparently knows me through the Luigi boards (Good games to you if you're in here somewhere). It was hella good fun, and I would love to do this more often.

So, why is this relevant? Well, I've got to say it was refreshing playing Luigi on new comp, and hell, I feel like I could never replace him as my main, ha ha. I'm not saying I changed my mind at all from my original post in this thread, but now I definitely know I'll stick with him over my recent love, Captain Falcon.

Anyways, another relevancy to Brawl, is that this really boosted my love for this community, and I am going to try my hardest to contribute even more than ever to these Luigi boards. I slowed down a LOT after my last tourny. My inbox is freaking stuffed, so I guess it's time to return some of those messages too.

Thanks Brawl Luigi community, keep it chugging. I'll hopefully get to play most of you sometime (I have WiFi but ugh, you know what I mean.) FACE TO FACE. Some people put me way too high for what I am, just another Luigi lover in this community, so I'd definitely hate to let them, or you guys, down.

~The Greench

P.S. Guess I just needed a little boost in comp

Oh, and P.S.S. check out the tier list thread about Luigi, some great discussion going on in there:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192203&page=4

 

[hippiedude92]

What do you mean by comp? o.O Got me lost there. And I agree with Wigi, I think we're pretty kewls with the upb setups we should have enough. We're like most inactive board >.>

 

[The Grinch]

What do you mean by comp? o.O Got me lost there. And I agree with Wigi, I think we're pretty kewls with the upb setups we should have enough. We're like most inactive board >.>

Competition :3 Sorry, too used to my friends' slang lol.

 

[-Mars-]

The game is only 6 months old.......in melee some AT's weren't discovered until the last few years so lets stop making assumptions and just keep working on making Luigi better

 

[The Grinch]

The game is only 6 months old.......in melee some AT's weren't discovered until the last few years so lets stop making assumptions and just keep working on making Luigi better

Oh don't be such a sour Snake.

If anything, I hope that this thread will ENCOURAGE people to see that Luigi is "good" for now in terms of AT's, and focus on---hey, Luigi's mental game!

I highly highly doubt this thread will deter people from playing Luigi, or think that he will quite literally never gain any AT's, but I think more people would learn that he's reached a good peak...for now. And, as I already stated, maybe more people will work on the number one more important thing about any character, and that's the ability to work your opponent over mentally (While utilizing Luigi's assets).

I think we can all agree, that a fresh, well played Luigi that comes into the scene (Or sprouts from our community ) would be pretty durn amazing to watch, over one that figured out how to loldashcancelsmashfocuschargeupbsnipe someone.

So, TLDR version: This thread should encourage ALL Luigi players, and maybe Brawl players in general, to work harder on their outside game of Brawl---the key mind games. Good luck =]

~ The Greench

 

[WIGI]

The game is only 6 months old.......in melee some AT's weren't discovered until the last few years so lets stop making assumptions and just keep working on making Luigi better

please stop comparing this game to melee. it is not melee at all, we shoudl all realize this.



Also....i need to learn how to DAC...thats the same as snake boosting right/but with luigi? i can;t do it at all. =[


sumone want to send me a vid of how to do it..in linke..slow mo with when to press the buttons and such?

 

[Luigi player]

I agree with the TC. Luigi can't do too many things... I do much better with other characters, because Luigi just isn't that good...

 

[hippiedude92]

DAC isn't that much of a difference from hyphen smashing.

Brawl =/= Melee.

I'm at the point where I just need to stop doing bad habits like spotdodging and just need to learn how to fireball/ftilt lock and I'm at max for my Luigi lol.

Reverse hyphen smashing > Dac

 

[PolMex23]

Luigi isnt dead xD

 

[LuigiKing]

As a side note, after reading through the rest of the posts, the up B setups are realy a huge part of Luigis game, totally like JIggs in good old melee. I know I've been using the sour spot nair -> jab jab -> up B a ton now. I gotta say though, luigis DAC is not that useful by any stretch, as most of the time you can just hyphen smash for the exact same effect due to his great slidiness. Anyway, I'm going to 2 tournaments in the next couple months, heres to placing well ^_^

 

[WIGI]

alright, i wont worry abotu spending time on the DAC. thanks for that tip. as for up b setups

FASTFALLED DAIR SPIKE TO UP B

i unno if that would even work. but it would be sweet.

orrrr.

DTaunt-> up b is ma favourite, its so mindagmes they never think to di. =P

 

[hippiedude92]

usually my favorite upb set up is a jab, pivot upb to mindgame them works well

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I think (replying to OP's post) that's just the way Brawl is. The community is so huge now, that when we see the most effective way to play a character we all copy it. Look at Snake, Metaknight, DK, Game and Watch. Almost all of them play the same way by everyone, because it's the most effective.

Once the techniques are down, it's up to the player to win.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Pyle has it. People learned off seeing everybody elses approaches in action & put their own emphasis on it.

If only I could get down accurate UpB setups i'd stick with the man in green. Been practicing though. Am getting slighly better.

Lol, the outright most enjoyable move in the game when you land it. Then it KOs so easily, aw man. Good punish move.