• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

My main concern with Echo fighters

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
I know about what Sakurai said about clone characters, but doesn't adding clones seem... rehash-y? Even if Sakurai's main reason for adding clones isn't laziness, I still think they're rehashes, and honestly, they make the roster feel unoriginal to me; I'm not someone who approves of rehashing as a practice. Any thoughts?

Edit: I forgot to mention that I am actually okay with semi-clones, just not fuller clones.
 
Last edited:

Captain Shades

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
775
I like Echoes, they allow for small variations and the addition of more characters. Characters like Daisy and Chrom earned their positions, but weren’t given enough material to make a move set unique to them, so this gives fans a way to play the characters, which is a bonus in my eyes
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
I like Echoes, they allow for small variations and the addition of more characters. Characters like Daisy and Chrom earned their positions, but weren’t given enough material to make a move set unique to them, so this gives fans a way to play the characters, which is a bonus in my eyes
But why not just make 'em alternate costumes? For example, for Smash 4, Sakurai was gonna have Lucina be an alternate costume of Marth, which I think he should have done, even if he has to make her a small bit unfaithful to her Awakening appearance.

As for Daisy, I don't agree with your statement about her moveset potential, since Sakurai could have given her moves based on her appearances in the spin-off games (such as Mario Party stuff, from items to minigames; maybe a special move involving Bumper Balls); plus, some of her moves aren't things she's done or would do (such as using Toad or turnips).
 

Luigifan18

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
3,134
Switch FC
SW-5577-0969-0868
I'll be honest — I liked the way Melee handled clones. Each clone pair had essentially the same moveset, but they had different character attributes (walk speed, run speed, jump height, double-jump height, fall speed, air speed, etc.) and different properties on their moves (frame data, damage, base knockback, knockback growth, knockback angle, etc.), so even though the moves were the same, the playstyles of the clones were different from their parents. Ultimate's Echoes are considerably lazier IMO — there are virtually no character attribute or move property changes between them. Without that, what's the point of giving them a separate character slot?! Granted, the degree of this varies from Echo to Echo, but generally, there isn't that much variance in their playstyles compared to, say, Fox and Falco in Melee. (In order from most to least meaningful variation: Ken is a full-blown Melee-style clone, with better speed, distinct move properties, and different command specials and throws compared to Ryu; Chrom and Lucina have their consistent hitbox gimmick setting them apart from Roy and Marth, with Chrom also having a different up special on top of that; Dark Pit has altered properties on a handful of his moves; Dark Samus has more Electric effects while Samus has more Flame effects, and Dark Samus has slightly different hitbox placement on her Smash attacks; Richter's Holy Water has an Aura effect instead of the Flame effect that Simon's Holy Water uses, causing them to have different effects on certain hurtboxes (namely explosives and Red Pikmin); Daisy is just a glorified reskin of Peach.)
 

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
33,573
Location
This Thread
NNID
OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
But why not just make 'em alternate costumes? For example, for Smash 4, Sakurai was gonna have Lucina be an alternate costume of Marth, which I think he should have done, even if he has to make her a small bit unfaithful to her Awakening appearance.

As for Daisy, I don't agree with your statement about her moveset potential, since Sakurai could have given her moves based on her appearances in the spin-off games (such as Mario Party stuff, from items to minigames; maybe a special move involving Bumper Balls); plus, some of her moves aren't things she's done or would do (such as using Toad or turnips).
Chrom wouldn't work at all as a Roy costume because literally everything would need to be identical. If Chrom wields a fire-imbued Falchion in a reverse grip while performing Roy's signature critical hit animation, he isn't Chrom.
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
I'll be honest — I liked the way Melee handled clones. Each clone pair had essentially the same moveset, but they had different character attributes (walk speed, run speed, jump height, double-jump height, fall speed, air speed, etc.) and different properties on their moves (frame data, damage, base knockback, knockback growth, knockback angle, etc.), so even though the moves were the same, the playstyles of the clones were different from their parents. Ultimate's Echoes are considerably lazier IMO — there are virtually no character attribute or move property changes between them. Without that, what's the point of giving them a separate character slot?! Granted, the degree of this varies from Echo to Echo, but generally, there isn't that much variance in their playstyles compared to, say, Fox and Falco in Melee. (In order from most to least meaningful variation: Ken is a full-blown Melee-style clone, with better speed, distinct move properties, and different command specials and throws compared to Ryu; Chrom and Lucina have their consistent hitbox gimmick setting them apart from Roy and Marth, with Chrom also having a different up special on top of that; Dark Pit has altered properties on a handful of his moves; Dark Samus has more Electric effects while Samus has more Flame effects, and Dark Samus has slightly different hitbox placement on her Smash attacks; Richter's Holy Water has an Aura effect instead of the Flame effect that Simon's Holy Water uses, causing them to have different effects on certain hurtboxes (namely explosives and Red Pikmin); Daisy is just a glorified reskin of Peach.)
You make a good point about Melee's clones; I never even considered that different stats change playstyles that much.

Also, how different are the Melee clones (specifally Doc, Pichu, and Lil Link) to their derivatives? Are they different enough to be called semis?

Chrom wouldn't work at all as a Roy costume because literally everything would need to be identical. If Chrom wields a fire-imbued Falchion in a reverse grip while performing Roy's signature critical hit animation, he isn't Chrom.
Then what about a Marth costume or Ike costume?
 
Last edited:

Nepht

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 18, 2018
Messages
126
Location
Edinburgh
Switch FC
SW 4207 3323 3722
I think echo fighters are an inoffensive way to get new fighters in quick.
 

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
33,573
Location
This Thread
NNID
OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
You make a good point about Melee's clones; I never even considered that different stats change playstyles that much.

Also, how different are the Melee clones (specifally Doc, Pichu, and Lil Link) to their derivatives? Are they different enough to be called semis?



Then what about a Marth costume or Ike costume?
Marth's moves are all about grace and finesse, which Chrom lacks. It canonically wouldn't fit.
A lot of Ike's movements also wouldn't fit, and the size Falchion would need to be to match Ragnell would make it a lot bigger than Lucina's Falchion despite them literally being the same sword.

There's no need to fit a square peg into a round hole. Outside of Daisy and MAYBE Richter, I don't think any of the current echoes would even work as costumes.
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
Marth's moves are all about grace and finesse, which Chrom lacks. It canonically wouldn't fit.
A lot of Ike's movements also wouldn't fit, and the size Falchion would need to be to match Ragnell would make it a lot bigger than Lucina's Falchion despite them literally being the same sword.

There's no need to fit a square peg into a round hole. Outside of Daisy and MAYBE Richter, I don't think any of the current echoes would even work as costumes.
Then I'd prefer they stay out of the roster unless they're semis.
 

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
33,573
Location
This Thread
NNID
OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
Then I'd prefer they stay out of the roster unless they're semis.
I just don't get why. All of them are popular characters within their own franchises and they take much less time to add than non-echo fighters.
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
I just don't get why. All of them are popular characters within their own franchises and they take much less time to add than non-echo fighters.
Well truthfully, it's just more of a code of mine to not support clones or rehashing.
 
Last edited:

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
I'm not a fan of clones or Echo fighters. I think if a character is going to be put in the game, either make them somewhat different or don't bother. A character can be given a moveset without actually having seen them in action in their own games. In the first Smash game, Captain Falcon and Fox had never been seen fighting in their own games. Not like they do in Super Smash Bros., because they were restricted to sitting in a cockpit. I think clones being created around an existing character because their movesets have not ever been seen in their own games isn't a good enough reason for their addition. Different properties doesn't make a drastic change in their playstyle, either. Maybe if you compared Mario to Dr. Mario, then you could definitely tell who is good and who is bad, but aside from that, the Echo fighters in Ultimate don't seem too different. If I used Simon Belmont, chances are I can do fine using Richter Belmont. Same with Peach and Daisy.
 

evildevil97

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
183
NNID
evildevil97
My only problem with Echo Fighters are the ones with almost no gameplay differences from their originals. Daisy could've easily had some of Peach's Smash 4 custom moves, for example.
 

ZephyrZ

But.....DRAGONS
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
10,685
Location
Southern California
NNID
AbsolBlade
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
Well truthfully, it's just more of a code of mine to not support clones or rehashing.
If you have no real reason to think that then that's just an old bias you need to let go of. Clones aren't hurting anyone.
 
Top Bottom