My big issue: Is it just me?

[Cr0wbaR]

I see a lot of threads for pet peeves, and other For Glory annoyances, but no one is really responding to what I really wanna ask... Is it just me, or is campy play way too rewarding?

Recently I think I finally decided to main Dr. Mario, say what you want, maybe he's good, maybe he's bad, but that's not the point. Personally I wouldn't want to play the top tier characters just because they're top tier, it shouldn't that way. I've played about 200 games, and have a 65% win rate. I was at 70% but whenever I face someone who bodies me, I'd keep playing rather than just leave, I'm not trying to pad my stats.

I've been playing tons of 1v1 For Glory, and the mindsets of players in it are a mixed bag of crap. You get the players that I beat easily, and it's boring because the reads are easy (Caping Little Mac side-b everyday). Then you get close games, where I win, and they try to play the same character as me trying to prove a point or something, I still win. And then when I face someone who can really beat me, they change characters in between games, and taunt constantly. Like, why act so tough? I want to practice!

But the biggest thing, is the play-style that works too well. Rolling is way too fast, characters can roll faster than Doc runs. I faced a Jiggs, and I won, but all she did was roll to one side of the stage, jump around, as soon as I'd approach, she'd pound, and if she missed, or we traded, she'd roll to the other side, repeat. It's just sucks because it eats up so much time for nothing. I have such a hard time hitting Rosalina when she constantly rolls, her's seems even faster. And maybe it's lag, but I often run through people's shields, read the roll, dash attack, and I STILL miss!

And the most infuriating, was a Luigi main I faced... He literally stood there. I would stand a decent distance away, far enough to avoid his fireballs, and close enough to land my pills. Again, maybe it's lag, but I just couldn't approach him. He'd power shield all the pills, and if I went for any attack, shield grab. If I tried to go for the grab myself, at low percents, I don't get much out of it, d-throw>u-air>n-air>d-tilt>Dash Attack at the low percents, but on subsequent grabs, I only get to u-air. Not to mention he would also roll around as well, making grabs difficult. Landing a kill move is next to impossible because he'd just stand there, and Doc's back throw doesn't kill till around 150/160 at the middle of the stage (120 if we're right at the ledge). He won most games because I was more aggressive than he was, and it was just a boring loop of shield grabbing, and standing still, worst part is, he'd taunt when he'd get the kill.

It's just not fun. (Insert joke, it's not for fun, it's for glory hurrhurr), but a trolly, cheeky playstyle shouldn't be so effective. I can fish for days, but he was willing to run the clock, as I literally won matches in Sudden Death. And then I was talking to my friend, and he explained the Bowser play-style to be the same, power shield, and punish.

Is anyone else bothered by this? Or am I the only one? I've played competitively, and by no means would I consider myself all that great, but I feel like Sm4sh is just turning into Brawl. Falco was good in Brawl for the free 50% of the down throw chain grab, and now it's Mario's down-throw to 60% combo, or Bowser's easy power shield to jab. Combo's should be in the game yes, but I don't recall Melee being this "simple." I mean, I watched JTails 3-0 Nairo with essentially one Diddy combo. And you watch Melee and you see real shield pressure that's not so easy to get out of.

Just curious if I'm the odd one who isn't seeing the excitement like other people may be.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Yeah it's not fun, as soon as i'm matched against a campy player, I play out the game, but I don't play another one against them, win or loss.

It just doesn't seem like fun to run shoot and fsmash all day to victory.

The upside to it is that it get really predictable, to where just a slight lag in attack inputs will absolutely destroy a campy, dodge spamming player, and usually they are not good enough to know what to do when you get in close to them.

Basically, campy players are generally pretty bad at the game, use camping as crutch to win. Punish them effectively and they are no problem.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

Yes, I'm annoyed by people who roll spam; projectile spam I can handle. I don't see how it's fun for either of the players; how can you possibly enjoy the game when all you do is roll spam/projectile spam? It's all about waiting and watching for that opening and going in for the punish, I guess.

 

[sweq32]

I can kind of understand where you're coming from. Earlier today I fought a Link that just sat on one side of the stage and threw projectiles, most of which I couldn't get around. They can be a bit rough unless I'm using anti-camp characters.

On the topic of roll spamming, I unfortunately have a bad habit of doing this when I'm panicked. If rolling wasn't so nonpunishable, I would probably not have this habit, but I feel like it'll take me a while to get over the habit.

 

[S2]

A lot of the stuff like the roll spamming is only working because the game is new. Players are spamming it because no one is used to the speed / range of rolls and they're not being punished... yet. As people get more accustomed to them the roll spam will get punished more.

As for camping. Honestly, it's hard to make a concrete decision when we're playing online on the 3DS. A lot of players are going to play defensive because other players aren't approaching with safe attacks. It's really easy to bait unsafe aggression and then just punish. Will this work in an offline Wii U environment? Maybe. Probably not in tournament level play.

There being defensive characters I think is fine. This is true of most fighting games. There are characters built for rushdown (MVC Wolverine, etc) and there are those who are made to zone (Ghost Rider). In Smash 4, most projectiles aren't safe once an opponent is within a certain range. As Doc you don't need to approach a non-projectile character. Get at maximum pill range and pressure their shield with them to fish for a mistake.

If your getting outzoned, try and find that sweetspot spacing where you're close, but just far enough where they would need to move forward a little to be in range to attack you. This makes mediocre players really uncomfortable as they can't hit you without committing and your close enough that they think your going to do something. It's not really any different than what defensive spammers are doing, which is trying to fluster you so that you'll commit to an unsafe attack.

 

[SenaFreedom]

I'm a new member of smashboards and I'm here because I looked up, "roll spamming" on smash 3ds online play. I'd like to speak out my experience on For Glory. I've fought over a 100+ matches and noticed a pattern in my matches. A lot of people spam dodge instead of actually jump, and running to approach and retreat. It is so irritating and boring to fight against people who spam dodge roll. What makes me really mad the most is I lose to them because I can't react to their roll due o the "delay input lag" from online. I hate how effective the roll spam playstyle is. It kills all fun, but it's so effective.

 

[Terotrous]

I blame the 3DS controls. In general, when there's lag or imprecise controls, camp is much stronger, because it's harder to time the punishes correctly.

 

[Shack]

If you are getting shield grabbed a lot then you are too predictable.

I felt this way a few days ago too though. People just roll and dodge all day and get "lucky" KOs. Then I decided to start baiting rolls and air dodges and I get a lot of free wins. Online lag makes some tactics stronger like all of the Ken's in SF4 that just jump in HK all day. You just have to step back and reassess your strategy. All you really need are projectiles and to start charging Smashes or even turning around ahead of time so they roll right into your grab/smash. It is frustrating, but so is every other online game. People will do what works for them until it stops working.

 

[Reila]

Playing against campers is annoying, but camping still is a valid strategy for trying to win a match. It can't be helped.

I blame the 3DS controls. In general, when there's lag or imprecise controls, camp is much stronger, because it's harder to time the punishes correctly.

Good thing the 3DS controls are fine. People should stop blaming the controls for their mistakes in the game.

 

[Terotrous]

Good thing the 3DS controls are fine. People should stop blaming the controls for their mistakes in the game.

Buttons are okay, but the circle pad is definitely inferior to a control stick. Besides being less precise, it's also much less durable, so unless you want to break your 3DS you can't go that hard on it.

 

[9Blades]

Agree. They should have just called the Super Smash Roll 4. Its just roll, roll, maybe land a hit. Nice to see someone else thinks this, I hope somehow the Wii U version has different mechanics.

 

[Nasreth]

Turtle players are annoying sure, but it teaches you how to play a safe sort of aggression. As a Lucina main I've learned to REALLY punish roll spammers with her double f-air approach. I think the key to beating people in this game lies in getting them off the stage. When you're grounded you have a ton of options, but if you're above the stage or on the ledge those options are dramatically reduced and there are huge frames to punish people. Pretty much every ability in the game has some landing lag now, especially air dodges. Use those moments to hit people with smash attacks, or grab them to put them back where they came from.

 

[Muttley]

I felt this way a few days ago too though. People just roll and dodge all day and get "lucky" KOs.

I don't believe in lucky KO's. Even if someone is throwing around cheap fsmashes like there's no tomorrow, if you get hit by it, that's on you. (Stale moves are back in this game too, so that's something spammers have against them)

Tbh, don't blame campers because you don't know how to fight them. They can be annoying as all hell, but dodge rolling is in the game as a tool, just like anything else. People will abuse and exploit what works. If you're having trouble with a roll spammer, choose a character with a wide range d smash and time it right. Works for me a good 70% of the time if I time it to where it connects in those few frames of vulnerability after a roll.

Also, spam roll back if you have to. A lot of campers hate this. This isn't permanent invincibility. Their guard is down a lot more than you realize. Try to start picturing where they're going to end up after a roll and grab them, then combo them the best you can.

It's something I'm still working on, myself. It's not easy to handle, but it's a different play style we have to adjust to. The game hasn't even been out for a week yet. If you get a camper or roll spammer, don't DC right away. Practice on them, even if you keep losing; don't worry about your stats. They're inconsequential. Be patient and don't try to rush to improvement; the competitive smash scene isn't going anywhere anytime soon. You'll improve and learn to deal with cheap tactics easily soon enough.

 

[Illuvial]

What I did was I had a friend go online with me and just roll from side to side as I tried figuring out ways to punish. You'll eventually learn timings for certain moves to dodge people inbetween rolls, and once you do the playstyle falls apart completely and you'll never have issues with roll spamming defensive players again.

Now COUNTER SPAMMING defensive players on the other hand are next level nightmares since most of them mix it up JUST ENOUGH with other attacks so that you don't know when they are gonna counter. Counters are insanely strong in Smash 4 it seems, and SHulk players and Macs have no problem abusing such mechanics since their counters are godlike

 

[Muttley]

Now COUNTER SPAMMING defensive players on the other hand are next level nightmares since most of them mix it up JUST ENOUGH with other attacks so that you don't know when they are gonna counter. Counters are insanely strong in Smash 4 it seems, and SHulk players and Macs have no problem abusing such mechanics since their counters are godlike

Oops, I'm guilty of this while playing Marth or Palutena. But I'm legitimately curious at what point it is considered spamming instead of a tactic. Are we talking every other move? If there is enough of a variety of moves in between to be considered "mixing it up", is it really spamming?

 

[Illuvial]

Oops, I'm guilty of this while playing Marth or Palutena. But I'm legitimately curious at what point it is considered spamming instead of a tactic. Are we talking every other move? If there is enough of a variety of moves in between to be considered "mixing it up", is it really spamming?

I love to use the counter when I play counter characters, but I don't spam it every other move. People who counter spam just like to sit on one side of the map and wait for you to come to them, and then they just spam counter when you go in. Its easy enough to beat, since you can bait counters if you start to learn their habits, but god damnit its annoying, and a single ****ed up read can cost you the stock, and in 1v1 For Glory you only have 2 of those

 

[Muttley]

I love to use the counter when I play counter characters, but I don't spam it every other move. People who counter spam just like to sit on one side of the map and wait for you to come to them, and then they just spam counter when you go in. Its easy enough to beat, since you can bait counters if you start to learn their habits, but god damnit its annoying, and a single ****ed up read can cost you the stock, and in 1v1 For Glory you only have 2 of those

Okay, that makes sense and is definitely not what I resort to. Countering edgeguard smashes erryday tho

 

[sweq32]

What I'm picking up from this thread is that people, in general, hate when their opponent rolls a lot. If this is true, then I doubt a single person would want to actually face me in this game. My bad habit of rolling existed in Brawl, too, and I just wish it would go away. As I am right now, people would just find me annoying to play against and it makes me a bit sad.

 

[NackJicholson]

Yeah it's not fun, as soon as i'm matched against a campy player, I play out the game, but I don't play another one against them, win or loss.

It just doesn't seem like fun to run shoot and fsmash all day to victory.

The upside to it is that it get really predictable, to where just a slight lag in attack inputs will absolutely destroy a campy, dodge spamming player, and usually they are not good enough to know what to do when you get in close to them.

Basically, campy players are generally pretty bad at the game, use camping as crutch to win. Punish them effectively and they are no problem.

Agreed I just counter pick with Jiggs and float around everywhere and it usually works haha

 

[Muttley]

What I'm picking up from this thread is that people, in general, hate when their opponent rolls a lot. If this is true, then I doubt a single person would want to actually face me in this game. My bad habit of rolling existed in Brawl, too, and I just wish it would go away. As I am right now, people would just find me annoying to play against and it makes me a bit sad.

Don't take it too harshly. We all have our bad smash habits and just like to complain on the internet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The controls are part of it. I want to punish rolls a lot but the input is still off. Still when I do see them roll spam I get so many rewards for punishing it like free kills.

Dunno about projectile camping though, only issue has been Duck Hunt Dog but i dunno how to deal with that or Villager with a tree right in front of him still.

 

[Clemente]

Of course it's not just you. Campy play is way too rewarding.

Yes you can punish roll "spamming" if that person is being a predictable idiot, but there's no real way to punish being super defensive and camping for 5 minutes, as far as I can tell. Maybe if you're a character with a very fast running speed like Captain Falcon, etc.

On the characters I have been using, if the person is too campy in For Glory mode, I'll just barely manage to get the kill at about 10-30 seconds left after chasing them around, or a few times it actually has gone to SD. Not fun at all

 

[Fortress]

Haven't read through this thread, so I may be repeating somebody, but the game is pretty much brand-new. Not only that, but the experience could be somewhat-marred by the controls and the ever-present willful moments of the circle-pad. If somebody's spamming out rolls, just figure out what they're doing after their roll, analyze their habits and punish for them. If they're bad enough to roll forever, they're probably bad enough to only know one or two options out of their roll that they swear by.

Most of this could be because, again, the game is very new, with tactics still developing. Not only that, but in a setting like For Glory with an extremely flat stage being the only stage (and a large one, at that), it would make sense that staying far away from your opponent would be easier. Just wait until you can throw people up on platforms in Battlefield, and you tech chase them all day for their foolish decision to spam roll all day.

Again, the three big things that are making it seem less enjoyable are:

1) The fact that the meta isn't even beginning to quite develop just yet, so new tactics are being discovered each day
2) The controls are of course not perfect
3) The only stage choice promotes a lot of what we're seeing

I promise that this will not be a huge deal in tournament settings.

The personal way I punish rolling? I play Ganondorf online constantly, and each time I see three rolls in a row my opponent eats a free Wizard's Foot that's already there where they're rolling to. Think of it like a 'meaty attack' in Street Fighter; playing a big, lengthy attack over an opponent as they're standing up. Your hitboxes will already be out as they stand right up into them.

 

[D-idara]

Buttons are okay, but the circle pad is definitely inferior to a control stick. Besides being less precise, it's also much less durable, so unless you want to break your 3DS you can't go that hard on it.

On another note, tilts are MUCH easier to do with the Circle Pad than a control stick, I always end up dashing or smashing with the control sticks on consoles.

 

[Shack]

I don't believe in lucky KO's. Even if someone is throwing around cheap fsmashes like there's no tomorrow, if you get hit by it, that's on you. (Stale moves are back in this game too, so that's something spammers have against them)

Tbh, don't blame campers because you don't know how to fight them. They can be annoying as all hell, but dodge rolling is in the game as a tool, just like anything else. People will abuse and exploit what works. If you're having trouble with a roll spammer, choose a character with a wide range d smash and time it right. Works for me a good 70% of the time if I time it to where it connects in those few frames of vulnerability after a roll.

Also, spam roll back if you have to. A lot of campers hate this. This isn't permanent invincibility. Their guard is down a lot more than you realize. Try to start picturing where they're going to end up after a roll and grab them, then combo them the best you can.

It's something I'm still working on, myself. It's not easy to handle, but it's a different play style we have to adjust to. The game hasn't even been out for a week yet. If you get a camper or roll spammer, don't DC right away. Practice on them, even if you keep losing; don't worry about your stats. They're inconsequential. Be patient and don't try to rush to improvement; the competitive smash scene isn't going anywhere anytime soon. You'll improve and learn to deal with cheap tactics easily soon enough.

Lol that is why I put the work lucky in quotation marks. I do not honestly believe it is luck, but many people who complain do.

 

[Shack]

Now COUNTER SPAMMING defensive players on the other hand are next level nightmares since most of them mix it up JUST ENOUGH with other attacks so that you don't know when they are gonna counter. Counters are insanely strong in Smash 4 it seems, and SHulk players and Macs have no problem abusing such mechanics since their counters are godlike

Grabs man. Condition them to spam counters by going for big obvious hits, then use empty jumps to set them up. From there you can just grab and have your way with them. Also a few counters are kind of slow like Greninja's. On these you can spam multi hit moves (Sheik's FSmash) and hit them on their attack frames.

I like that counters are stronger now. In previous games they were worthless, at least now they have some use and can force overly aggressive players to slow down and think.

 

[Fortress]

What I did was I had a friend go online with me and just roll from side to side as I tried figuring out ways to punish. You'll eventually learn timings for certain moves to dodge people inbetween rolls, and once you do the playstyle falls apart completely and you'll never have issues with roll spamming defensive players again.

Now COUNTER SPAMMING defensive players on the other hand are next level nightmares since most of them mix it up JUST ENOUGH with other attacks so that you don't know when they are gonna counter. Counters are insanely strong in Smash 4 it seems, and SHulk players and Macs have no problem abusing such mechanics since their counters are godlike

As a Shulk main, I love that you don't ever grab me or try and just bait the counter out. Attack less, think more, play reactively. If counters are literally the only thing defeating you in the Shulk matchup, then you are being your own worst enemy in the matchup. Counters literally only work if you make them work. You just need to work on thinking harder and not throwing out attacks all of the time, you've got other options. Movement to bait people out, grabbing to open up overly-defensive players, and attacking to beat out bad movement. Again, just play smarter, play with your head, not your moveset.

 

[Swedish_Otaku]

I haven't met many like that but it's hella annoying. The way to beat them is to just psych em out! Just start moving like a crazy person and then attack attack attack and continue. They don't know what to do, just gotta play mind games.

 

[Maki]

My annoyance is how often I get punished for trying to play properly (predict their rolls). I could predict and punish this "gameplay" easily in Brawl online (where it was much laggier), now I get blocked and punished.

Actually, being at frame disvantage for hitting shields with any move is ridiculous. I can't help but think that pro matches will be decided on who gets the first KO; just get a kill and stall for time.

 

[Dr. Ness]

I don't know if it's just because I suck, but I have a huge problem with this as well. Too many times people try to play the range game and run away the whole game. Getting close to them results in... Well, them running away, again.

On another note, does anyone else feel like trying to combo in midair sometimes is useless? There's almost no reason to throw your enemy into the air. If you try to hit them all they do is air dodge over and over again, barely giving you a chance to hit them. I feel like this wasn't really a problem in other smashes except Brawl maybe. Maybe I just sound like an old coot. I'm trying to enjoy this, I really am, but there is so much defensive play.

 

[Illuvial]

As a Shulk main, I love that you don't ever grab me or try and just bait the counter out. Attack less, think more, play reactively. If counters are literally the only thing defeating you in the Shulk matchup, then you are being your own worst enemy in the matchup. Counters literally only work if you make them work. You just need to work on thinking harder and not throwing out attacks all of the time, you've got other options. Movement to bait people out, grabbing to open up overly-defensive players, and attacking to beat out bad movement. Again, just play smarter, play with your head, not your moveset.

You're talking to me as though you know my playstyle or have played me before. So have we?

 

[OnettGirl]

I'll admit I have a very bad habit of rolling way too much, it's something that i've gotten used to and something i'm slowly trying to break. Fact of the matter is rolling is very safe right now in this game. I hardly feel like I get punished for it and by the time I find someone that does punish me for it and force me to adjust my play they leave the next round and I don't learn anything. I think Brawl had kinda "trained" me to roll around and it's such a hard thing to break. However i'm a person who does like the hit and run playstyle. I don't know why, but I do, it's entertaining to me and just the way I play. But I know I need to adjust. I think another factor might be the 3DS itself. I feel more inclined to roll with the circle pad than I do with a controller. I have no idea why I just do.

 

[RamenKing1]

A lot of the stuff like the roll spamming is only working because the game is new. Players are spamming it because no one is used to the speed / range of rolls and they're not being punished... yet. As people get more accustomed to them the roll spam will get punished more.

As for camping. Honestly, it's hard to make a concrete decision when we're playing online on the 3DS. A lot of players are going to play defensive because other players aren't approaching with safe attacks. It's really easy to bait unsafe aggression and then just punish. Will this work in an offline Wii U environment? Maybe. Probably not in tournament level play.

There being defensive characters I think is fine. This is true of most fighting games. There are characters built for rushdown (MVC Wolverine, etc) and there are those who are made to zone (Ghost Rider). In Smash 4, most projectiles aren't safe once an opponent is within a certain range. As Doc you don't need to approach a non-projectile character. Get at maximum pill range and pressure their shield with them to fish for a mistake.

If your getting outzoned, try and find that sweetspot spacing where you're close, but just far enough where they would need to move forward a little to be in range to attack you. This makes mediocre players really uncomfortable as they can't hit you without committing and your close enough that they think your going to do something. It's not really any different than what defensive spammers are doing, which is trying to fluster you so that you'll commit to an unsafe attack.

This is some really fine advice. I tend to use this method, because it's fairly effective and may cause the spammers to screw up somewhere. You just have to be patient.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Not only that, but in a setting like For Glory with an extremely flat stage being the only stage (and a large one, at that), it would make sense that staying far away from your opponent would be easier.

This is what I think the issue is. I don't feel that campy play is notably more rewarding, however it IS much easier to perform. Relatively similar reward, for a different amount of effort.

The personal way I punish rolling? I play Ganondorf online constantly, and each time I see three rolls in a row my opponent eats a free Wizard's Foot that's already there where they're rolling to.

As I've said on other threads, replace Wizard's Foot with Falcon Kick and you've got my remedy for roll spammers. I think the effectiveness of these types of attacks vs roll spammers plays into how a lot of Dark Pit players I fight online spam Electroshock Arm, how a lot of Charizard players I fight online spam Flare Blitz and so on.

 

[Fortress]

You're talking to me as though you know my playstyle or have played me before. So have we?

Not saying that I love when you personally throw constant attacks at my counter works for me, I'm saying that "as a Shulk main, probably the easiest way to play is when my opponent is way too aggressive and does not mindgame properly". Only judging by the problem you have with counters can I say that it sounds like it's your type of playstyle. I'm just laying down how to beat it. Grab more, bait the counter more, condition your opponent to counter specific attack strings that you throw out a lot, then mix it up. Counters are only as powerful as you make them.

I'm speaking to you as if I've played this game for years and that I've got the grasp of competitive play down. I don't need to know you or your playstyle specifically to know that if you're having an issue with counters then there's a factor greater than the counter you need to consider.

I do want to point out that I'm not trying to talk down to you, just that the solution to your counter situation is a lot easier than it appears, which isn't a bad thing.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Guys, give the meta time to develop. Strategies are developed, it's going to take time for counter-strategies to form to combat them.

 

[St. Viers]

Maki, try using attacks that don't leave you at a disadvantage, or try full jumping the attacks and spacing them so you aren't in grab range. Or, if attacking the shield is always a disadvantage (it isn't) empty hop and grab them. Especially online, the speed of fastfalling empty hops is pretty fast compared to ppls reaction times.

Dr. Ness, if they are always airdodging when you throw them up, punish that. Bait out an airdodge and then hit them, or if they are aredodging too low, abuse the fact that they aren't gonna be able to shield/roll in time to dodge your next attack.

Like, I personally find it frustrating too, but seriously, if you can't beat a tactic like camping or rolling, you need to stop making excuses and just learn how to deal with it.

 

[Fortress]

learn how to deal with it.

The one true mindset, the only one that gets you good quick.

 

[Illuvial]

Not saying that I love when you personally throw constant attacks at my counter works for me, I'm saying that "as a Shulk main, probably the easiest way to play is when my opponent is way too aggressive and does not mindgame properly". Only judging by the problem you have with counters can I say that it sounds like it's your type of playstyle. I'm just laying down how to beat it. Grab more, bait the counter more, condition your opponent to counter specific attack strings that you throw out a lot, then mix it up. Counters are only as powerful as you make them.

I'm speaking to you as if I've played this game for years and that I've got the grasp of competitive play down. I don't need to know you or your playstyle specifically to know that if you're having an issue with counters then there's a factor greater than the counter you need to consider.

I do want to point out that I'm not trying to talk down to you, just that the solution to your counter situation is a lot easier than it appears, which isn't a bad thing.

Like... I don't throw constant attacks out though? See the problem with your comments is that you assume you know how I play. Sure counter spamming is a problem, but only for the first stock of the match if even that. You're assuming that I'm so stupid that I don't know how to bait out counters or use the grab function. Before you even had your first reply I already pointed out that I do these things and that I know how to deal with counter spamming but I find it more annoying than other "cheap tactics' people complain about

 

[St. Viers]

"Now COUNTER SPAMMING defensive players on the other hand are next level nightmares since most of them mix it up JUST ENOUGH with other attacks so that you don't know when they are gonna counter. Counters are insanely strong in Smash 4 it seems, and SHulk players and Macs have no problem abusing such mechanics since their counters are godlike"

If it's easy to see and react and change your playstyle to, why are you describing it as a "nightmare" and calling the use of it abusing. It sounds like maybe you have more trouble than you've backtracked to with the tactic. You also never post anywhere that you know how to deal with it, unless I'm missing something

I get that you feel attacked by him, but chill out. He was giving solid advice (and originally using the non-specific you) until you made it personal. You don't have to clench up and defend yourself from....advice.