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Music is confusing and endless

Skadorski

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Link to original post: [drupal=4570]Music is confusing and endless[/drupal]



Title pretty much explains what I'm going to say. Music interests me to no end. Someone's favorite song may not be appealing to someone else, and vice versa. How someone can love a certain type of music and someone else doesn't like it both confuses and fascinates me.



From what I know, musical interest comes from:
A. How the person was raised
and
B. What the person wants to be said about them self (I can't think of a better definition right now).
Answer A makes sense. If someone grew up in the country they'd tend to like country music, if they grew up listening and playing to classical they'd tend to like classical, etc.
B is a little harder to understand. If you're a very calm and collected person, you study a lot and are very factual, you would like classical. If you live on instinct and you rush into situations and love adrenaline, you would like metal (when I say these things, I'm just "guessing", so to speak. I'm sure there are people in group A that like metal and some in group B that like classical).
But two people who grew up on classical and loved it can still disagree on songs. Not to mention someone who likes classical may like genres that aren't classical.
As far as I know, aside from the above examples, I don't think there's a psychological example as to why we like music (yet). From what I've read in books and such, animals don't care for music (aside from a few examples such as a dog keeping a beat and cats playing piano in synch with a song). Another thing is, music cannot be produced from nature. Aside from a waterfall soothing you and calming you down or other such audible examples, there is no "music" in nature. In other words, music is something entirely created by humans. Music can entirely change someone's mood,
opinion, or emotions.

Go to a piano and hit a note. Now hit that same note and hit another note after the first is pressed. Now keep pressing notes until you find an order that sounds like a little tune or so.
You now have a rythem going. Notice how it sounds different from that first note? It's almost as if the first note changes its sound. Music works in synchronization (somewhat like humans). As you add and take away notes, you have a completely new tune. As you do this, you should learn something simple: music is endless. I'm sure you've realized this before, but if you think about all the different instruments, different human voices, and endless amount of editting we can do with technology, (not to mention you can make many different electronic sounds in songs) it's almost overwhelming (to me, anyway). The endless ways people can present music, the different ways we can change one's emotions, and the different musical tastes in people makes music truely interesting to me.

I'm not 100% sure why I made this, I just felt like posting it and I hope it makes sense to others. In my opinion, music is one of the best things in life. Thanks for reading!

TL;DR Music is endless and fascinating.
On a side note, anyone else having trouble making a blog? I got like 50 error lines when I made mine and it was hard to fix it.


 

Life

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As an aspiring music major (you didn't mention if you are), I have to ask if you've ever written anything. I don't know how many people realize this, but writing music is difficult (I just tried to arrange Star-Spangled Banner for an alto sax trio, and it took me like half an hour to get eight measures), what with all the harmonies and stuff you have to look at. You think music is complicated now? Write something. Or heck, just look up a score of some random pop tune--or better yet, watch one of those Mario Paint vids--and take a gander at all the notes and look how they play off each other. It's great.
 

Skadorski

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As an aspiring music major (you didn't mention if you are), I have to ask if you've ever written anything. I don't know how many people realize this, but writing music is difficult (I just tried to arrange Star-Spangled Banner for an alto sax trio, and it took me like half an hour to get eight measures), what with all the harmonies and stuff you have to look at. You think music is complicated now? Write something. Or heck, just look up a score of some random pop tune--or better yet, watch one of those Mario Paint vids--and take a gander at all the notes and look how they play off each other. It's great.
I'm not a music major, I just find music fascinating (I'm likely to major in computer engineering, pretty interested in making music but kinda on the fence about it. Wouldn't major in it).
I haven't written any kind of music before, if anything just random short tunes(or the notes on a certain song[like VG songs]) to play on the piano. I can't say that I know HOW difficult it is to make music, but I certainly that it's hard. I'm not saying "making songs is easy", just that there are infinite possibilities for songs.
I want to try mario paint reallllly soon, just haven't been at my normal comp and I don't feel like DLing it on a comp I'll use for a couple of week.

:038:
 

3747373796432

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i actually thought about this myself. maybe you could take a graphing calculator and figure all the possible note combinations through its probability function. i've thought about doing the same for art, taking the amount of pixels normally found on an image, the possible hue (color), saturation (closeness to color or gray), and value (level of lightness or darkness) combinations for each pixel, and running it through a calculator. for both it'd probably be some staggeringly huge number.

edit: just did a quick calculation for music. there are around 56 notes on a piano's keyboard and around 130 notes in a song before it starts looping (at least in the one i picked). so that's 130 P (Permutation) 56, meaning that there's 130 events (notes in a song) and 56 outcomes for each event (amount of notes on a keyboard). nPr goes likes this P(n,r) = n! / (n-r)!, the ! is a factorial. for example, 5! means 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1. so n = 130 and r = 56. so P(130,56) = 130! / (130 - 56)! =19549816955722931710835380794020312957949448753874498345223861041920122926276955785056969901998080000000000000000

thats the total number of combinations (different songs) or permutations (by mathematic's definition) based on those numbers. now i'm gonna see what happens when i limit the notes on a keyboard to an octave.

P(130,8) = 130! / (130 - 8)! =
65486851073280000

still a pretty freaking huge number

and looking at this there are aproximately 97,206,484 songs in existence, so subtract that from the aproximate amount of combinations (possible songs) and you get about 21,205,628 songs left to make.
 

Spelt

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Damn.
I've been writing a music related blog I was gonna post soon. :U
If i post it now it's just gonna look like i'm bandwagoning, lol...


btw please don't use that dark blue color, it's terribly hard to read.



oh, and stuff actually related to the blog:

We don't really decide what music we like. It's just groups of people usually have similar interests, which is why stereotyping exists. You can decide not to listen to a song because of a particular disinterest to the subject (say, someone not listening to party in the usa because they don't like miley cyrus even though they do think the song is catchy). but, imo people do that a lot (consciously or subconsciously), which is sad. A lot of people refuse to listen to pop because "it's all generic and autotune filled." That's really not how you should decide what music is good. If you like the song, then listen to it. Simple.
 

KRDsonic

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I just thought I should mention that it is not possible to calculate how many songs can be possibly made because there are way too many factors. It's not just a matter of "What order you press the notes in." There are also factors such as instruments, rhythm, volume, time signature, rests, etc. Songs can easily have multiple melodies and rhythms going on at the same time too, so you definitely can't calculate something based on if there was just one melody playing. Also, pianos have 88 keys, not 56.

I definitely agree with Spelt on how interest in certain music is. People don't choose their likes or dislikes, same with how you don't choose to like or dislike certain food. However some people will choose to avoid something due to peer pressure.


:059:
 

JoFTWin

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The way I see it, your 'Answer A' is becoming less and less true in this era, with the internet and all, people can become interested in music that no one around them would otherwise like. Your 'Answer B' is true for some people to an extent. The most important factor regarding what kind of music people like is simply put...how it sounds. If it sounds pleasing to the ear, it's very likely that a person TECHNICALLY will like a particular song regardless of other factors. Whether they express it or not is another issue.

Certain notes are pleasing to the ear, it's a very simple concept. But some listeners' ears have a wider taste than others depending on experiences, and that can mean they are more open to different sounds and chord progressions. That is what I think is the main factor in what music people like, the notes and chords, not the genre. I'll explain why.

It's only in our post-popular culture era where things like "How I want to be viewed", or "who the artist is", have become a factor in affecting what kind of music people like. As opposed to, "whether it sounds good or not". I'll speak from personal experience. Factors that have affected my musical taste would have to be: memories and images. If certain notes remind me of a impactful feeling or moment I've had at a time where I was impressionable, then it's likely I will like that song. If certain notes put images in my head of things that connect with me as a person, then it's likely that I will like that song, regardless of genre, which leads me to my last point.

'Genre' is simply the difference in instruments being used in a song (and the difference in EQing techniques), it has nothing to do with the notes or chord progressions. Which is why I say people can technically or even sub-consciously like a song (notes and chord progressions), but not express it due to the genre being a barrier. Just a theory.

A good example is how acoustic cover artists play the exact same music of say a pop song or a rock song or even a hip-hop song and how some will say that they like the acoustic version better. They're playing the same song, just through a different filter. That filter being genre or the instruments used. People who enjoy more than one genre or "filter" have had more musical experiences or encounters than someone who say just likes classical or just likes country. I'm kind of simplifying the issue because there are more factors to consider, but these all have to do with the reason pop music even exists, (pop music isn't really a genre, it just means "popular music").

So I feel there's some truth to my theory that notes and chord progressions are the main factor that determines whether a song is liked. Not genre. Genre simply affects how people express how they feel about a song. Think of the music (notes and chord progressions) as a person and the genre (instruments and EQ) as the clothes, a person doesn't change no matter what clothes you put on them, but how they are viewed changes.

Or maybe I'm just thinking too hard, I'm an artist myself by the way lol.
 

Skadorski

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Damn.
I've been writing a music related blog I was gonna post soon. :U
If i post it now it's just gonna look like i'm bandwagoning, lol...


btw please don't use that dark blue color, it's terribly hard to read.



oh, and stuff actually related to the blog:

We don't really decide what music we like. It's just groups of people usually have similar interests, which is why stereotyping exists. You can decide not to listen to a song because of a particular disinterest to the subject (say, someone not listening to party in the usa because they don't like miley cyrus even though they do think the song is catchy). but, imo people do that a lot (consciously or subconsciously), which is sad. A lot of people refuse to listen to pop because "it's all generic and autotune filled." That's really not how you should decide what music is good. If you like the song, then listen to it. Simple.
You can go ahead and make a music blog; I don't care.
I use revolution and reading my own text makes my eyes bleed aswell but I like the color.:shrug:

I agree and disagree that we decide what music we like.
I don't like a lot of pop music (under 30% if I had to give an estimate). It's just not my interest. That being said, there are pop songs I like. I'll listen to the ones I like, but I don't see the point to listening to a genre that the majority of the songs I don't like.
Another thing; what if there's a part in a song that I like, but not particularly other parts? Do I "decide" if I like that song, or does my descision come from instinct?

I agree that a lot of people listen to music/don't listen to music because of other people. I just think that as long as you're listening to music that you LIKE, you're listening to music right.


Also I don't have much time so I prolly didn't word things the way I wish I could. I'll also respond to FTW's post when I can.

:038:
 

Spelt

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I agree and disagree that we decide what music we like.
I don't like a lot of pop music (under 30% if I had to give an estimate). It's just not my interest. That being said, there are pop songs I like. I'll listen to the ones I like, but I don't see the point to listening to a genre that the majority of the songs I don't like.
Realistically 30% is quite a bit.
I probably wouldn't be able to give you an estimate on the amount of pop that I like because I know there's a tremendous amount of stuff I have yet to discover, but I assure you it would be no where near 100%, or even in the higher percents at all. There's a lot of pop I do not like, and only a few artists where I have an extreme interest in and then a bunch of other artists where I only enjoy a few select songs.

Of course, the same could be said for every other genre I listen to.

/ramble

Another thing; what if there's a part in a song that I like, but not particularly other parts? Do I "decide" if I like that song, or does my descision come from instinct?
It depends on how much you like the other parts.

For example, this song has an awesome chorus, but the rest of the song is pretty mediocre. Although, since I am more neutral towards the other parts, I do own this song and listen to quite a bit, because the chorus is awesome and outweighs the other parts.

Another example where I like one part of a song and don't listen to it would be this. 2:15-3:00 of this song is great, but the rest of the song is terrible, and that one part doesn't make up for the rest of the song being trash.

/ramble more

I agree that a lot of people listen to music/don't listen to music because of other people. I just think that as long as you're listening to music because you LIKE it, you're listening to music right.
Yeah that's basically how I feel too. :p
 

Skadorski

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Realistically 30% is quite a bit.
I probably wouldn't be able to give you an estimate on the amount of pop that I like because I know there's a tremendous amount of stuff I have yet to discover, but I assure you it would be no where near 100%, or even in the higher percents at all. There's a lot of pop I do not like, and only a few artists where I have an extreme interest in and then a bunch of other artists where I only enjoy a few select songs.

Of course, the same could be said for every other genre I listen to.

/ramble
30% of pop as compared to 80% or so with techno(techno is my favorite genre, by the way, followed by classical and then metal) makes me tend to want to listen to techno more.
I won't go looking for pop music when I don't like the majority of it.


It depends on how much you like the other parts.

For example, this song has an awesome chorus, but the rest of the song is pretty mediocre. Although, since I am more neutral towards the other parts, I do own this song and listen to quite a bit, because the chorus is awesome and outweighs the other parts.

Another example where I like one part of a song and don't listen to it would be this. 2:15-3:00 of this song is great, but the rest of the song is terrible, and that one part doesn't make up for the rest of the song being trash.

/ramble more
You still have to "decide"(weigh the pros and cons) if you think the song is worth downloading. That's the way I see it. Now, if it's my favorite song, there's no way I decide if I like it or not, I just instinctively know "holy crap this is a good song omg".

Yeah that's basically how I feel too. :p

Awesome :) everyone I know IRL (lots of people online like my music :S) minus one person hates my music, but I don't care. Haters gonna hate XD

:038:
 

Spelt

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Most pop is techno with lyrics, lol. Especially recently, they've gotten much more intertwined.

And you don't really decide if you like it, you just decide if you like it enough that it's worth listening to or not.
 

Skadorski

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Most pop is techno with lyrics, lol. Especially recently, they've gotten much more intertwined.
I like techno with no lyrics(or for a better definition, techno with no sentences). I do agree that pop is starting to combine with techno, but I don't consider it "real" techno. It just seems like completely different music than lyric-less DnB/Hardcore/Dub techno.

And you don't really decide if you like it, you just decide if you like it enough that it's worth listening to or not.

Ehh, it's kinda getting into a word fight so it doesn't really matter. I'm pretty sure we agree on most of what I said.


:038:
 

Alien Vision

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Music is like painting an imaginable world for another person through sound. I've composed alot of songs but only three of my songs were able to make it No.1 on some site called ''Newgrounds''. So I am quite aware of how much it takes to make songs yourself. It's a beauty to behold. Every key that you press creates endless possibilities. Knowing that the song could transition to a wide assortment of different ways, and even able to switch into another genre is pure bliss. When it comes to the reason why music is so powerful--the ability the human has to hear it, and to be able to feel emotion within these sounds is phenominal. It's just unexplainable how everyone sees different things while reviewing your music, and how it brings up things in their own lives. I've actually had people who had fought a war before that liked my music. What did that make me feel?

It made me feel like my music was more than just sound. It was a key to something more. Everyone has this key, and all they have to do is express it through art, sound, or words in the end.

Endless magnificence.
 

global-wolf

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Huge calculation!
There are actually 88 keys on a normal piano. Only keyboards have 54 keys xD


FTW posted something about certain note and chord progressions being pleasing to different people, and some people having a wider range of taste due to past experiences. In my experience this is very true; I played piano for 8 years and I currently play violin, and being exposed to music when you are lets you develop an appreciation for it. When I listen to classical music I can hear all sorts of moods and drama in the music, and so can my friends who play an instrument, but a person who was never really exposed to the genre thinks it is boring. Other music genres are an acquired taste too (I hated anything with lyrics or drums when I was younger.)

And music really is hard to compose. @________@ I have perfect pitch but I can only hold a melody line and an extremely simple bass line in my head. I've come up with short little tunes before but they have none of the complexity of songs by great artists.
 

Zook

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i actually thought about this myself. maybe you could take a graphing calculator and figure all the possible note combinations through its probability function. i've thought about doing the same for art, taking the amount of pixels normally found on an image, the possible hue (color), saturation (closeness to color or gray), and value (level of lightness or darkness) combinations for each pixel, and running it through a calculator. for both it'd probably be some staggeringly huge number.

edit: just did a quick calculation for music. there are around 56 notes on a piano's keyboard and around 130 notes in a song before it starts looping (at least in the one i picked). so that's 130 P (Permutation) 56, meaning that there's 130 events (notes in a song) and 56 outcomes for each event (amount of notes on a keyboard). nPr goes likes this P(n,r) = n! / (n-r)!, the ! is a factorial. for example, 5! means 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1. so n = 130 and r = 56. so P(130,56) = 130! / (130 - 56)! =19549816955722931710835380794020312957949448753874498345223861041920122926276955785056969901998080000000000000000

thats the total number of combinations (different songs) or permutations (by mathematic's definition) based on those numbers. now i'm gonna see what happens when i limit the notes on a keyboard to an octave.

P(130,8) = 130! / (130 - 8)! =
65486851073280000

still a pretty freaking huge number

and looking at this there are aproximately 97,206,484 songs in existence, so subtract that from the aproximate amount of combinations (possible songs) and you get about 21,205,628 songs left to make.
Those numbers seem incredibly small to me.

I know they're big and gigantic and incomprehensible and whatnot, but being able to say that there is a limit to how many things we could create makes me sad.
 

Spelt

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what KRDsonic said is true.
There's no way to calculate the limit.
 

Vermanubis

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Those numbers seem incredibly small to me.

I know they're big and gigantic and incomprehensible and whatnot, but being able to say that there is a limit to how many things we could create makes me sad.
People often forget that music is endless not by virtue of sound, but by virtue of intervals. There are millions upon millions of songs written in the key of C major, yet almost none sound identical. Rhythm is a vastly overlooked facet of music, if not equal in magnitude to the relationship of the notes themselves.

I love music to a point where it's painful. Music, to me, is what we labor against the ineffable with to satisfy the cloying, troublesome itch of enchantment and clasp some fleeting vestige of our very essence. Music's infinite nature and dynamism reflects the human soul. It's amorphous, yet concrete. Black and white, yet grey. It assimilates to your emotions in a way words bound by reference never will.
 

Zook

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People often forget that music is endless not by virtue of sound, but by virtue of intervals. There are millions upon millions of songs written in the key of C major, yet almost none sound identical. Rhythm is a vastly overlooked facet of music, if not equal in magnitude to the relationship of the notes themselves.
There is still only a certain number of ways all the variables can be combined, though. The actual number of possible songs is way, way bigger than Stabby said, but must be a limit.
 

Vermanubis

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There is still only a certain number of ways all the variables can be combined, though. The actual number of possible songs is way, way bigger than Stabby said, but must be a limit.
It can't be argued that for structural cohesion to be had, a limit has to be present, but it's a limit so upper-bound that it's not worth acknowledging. xP
 

Vermanubis

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I guess, but a lot of those possible 'songs' wouldn't really sound like songs. lol
Yeah, I know, I'm just messing. :colorful:

Also, to throw a tumult out there, once you start getting into things like harmony, voice-leading, modal theory and modulation, that's when **** starts getting real. :laugh: Though, it becomes very intuitive over time. You don't even think about those things after a while, they just become habitual once your ear develops.

Edit: As for tour first point, I don't think that holds entirely true for people with a genuine appreciation for music. My personal tastes fluctuate from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Bt4-OLJ7c

to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhUYPy7GVn4 and so forth...
 

Splice

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Music is probably my favourite thing about life.

Also, saying there is a limit to music is the same as saying there is a limit to the different possibilities of exact body movements that happen throughout a whole year.

Sure that limit still exists... but... it's just... dumb. :)
 

Skadorski

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This is one reason why I think music is endless:

Original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLGW4-pgGXc

Remixes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5yoqvVW1HQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GVOZ-pYGKs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZEY4d0JTwA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVZU8WODC8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAkSuIBxudM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0BRhFnjVF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-eensMhO_k to name a few. Another good example of this is pokemon. Also I don't expect you to listen to these just to see how similar yet different they are.
If you remixed a song into a new genre with every song created (not to mention the spins you can put on them), it's infinite. I know that's never going to happen but it still supports an infinite amount of music.
Another good point is glitch music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3VvB8XagZ0
even nonsensical music can be music, it just needs a slight tune to keep it going.
I think there's a limit to what songs we can like, but not the amount of songs possible.


:038:
 

KRDsonic

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And music really is hard to compose. @________@ I have perfect pitch but I can only hold a melody line and an extremely simple bass line in my head. I've come up with short little tunes before but they have none of the complexity of songs by great artists.
It's actually not too hard if you have a program where you can listen back to what you're writing. Though personally I've always found melodies the hardest things in music to create. If you're able to create a good melody or idea for a melody then you can always make the rest later if you want. After all, that one you wrote before sounded really good IMO when I added other parts to it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFdwZpMzR4

:059:
 

global-wolf

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It's actually not too hard if you have a program where you can listen back to what you're writing. Though personally I've always found melodies the hardest things in music to create. If you're able to create a good melody or idea for a melody then you can always make the rest later if you want. After all, that one you wrote before sounded really good IMO when I added other parts to it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFdwZpMzR4

:059:
I think melodies are hard because you have to think of something new from the many many melodies that exist, but for me personally harmonies are hard because I have no idea what to do haha. I think it might be because there are only two parts to most piano pieces.

And yeah, you made that little tune sound awesome. <3
 
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