Multiple characters per third-party *franchise* is now a thing!

[Capybara Gaming]

Was shadow spotted in green hill zone at e3?

Why would he be, he's never appeared on that stage in Smash before...

 

[GalactaKnight4545]

id doubt hed be an echo fighter. he has a bigger move pool than sonic. He has chaos sphere and he can teleport. the only 2 moves id think sonic and shadow would have that would be the same would be their spindash and homing attack.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Was shadow spotted in green hill zone at e3?

No, but Knuckles has, which is weird because he’s an Assist Trophy.

Maybe when Knuckles spawns in, he’ll be replaced with Alfonzo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

No, but Knuckles has, which is weird because he’s an Assist Trophy.

Maybe when Knuckles spawns in, he’ll be replaced with Alfonzo.

No reason he can't just be on the screen twice.

Not like the game disallows players to play the same characters at the same time.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

id doubt hed be an echo fighter. he has a bigger move pool than sonic. He has chaos sphere and he can teleport. the only 2 moves id think sonic and shadow would have that would be the same would be their spindash and homing attack.

If he's not an echo fighter or clone he would not get in as a character

 

[Captain Shades]

Yes, but what about an ENTIRELY different pond with ENTIRELY different fish?
I'd rather be resources be put into that (if it's a franchise I like anyways).

What franchises do you believe still need to be in, we already have some of the biggest.

I mean, now personally I want Rayman to join the Platforming Gods club, and having an indie join the fray would also be nice like Shovel Knight or hell even Sans or Steve could make for good fighters. (I’m going to die for saying Steve aren’t I)

Also, what about Echoes, Shadow would make for a nice Sonic Echo, then your fear of him taking up resources is lessened tremendously?

 

[Quillion]

I get that there's a fanrule that states that there can't be more than one character per third-party franchise.

But is there another fanrule that states that a third-party character needs to be in Smash three times before their franchise gets another character?

That seems to be the only reason that way too many people are favoring Sonic when others like Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, and Mega Man all have equally, if not more, diverse and robust casts.

 

[Captain Shades]

I get that there's a fanrule that states that there can't be more than one character per third-party franchise.

But is there another fanrule that states that a third-party character needs to be in Smash three times before their franchise gets another character?

That seems to be the only reason that way too many people are favoring Sonic when others like Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, and Mega Man all have equally, if not more, diverse and robust casts.

People are favoring Sonic because he has the most history with Nintendo. He was a rival, literally on-par with Mario for a whole era, then Sega became third party and put Sonic on Nintendo systems first. Sonic was the second third party to ever get in Smash and is the most consistent in staying through all titles. Not to mention how Sonic has many exclusive titles on Nintendo systems, and even has a crossover title, unlike any of the other third parties in Smash.

Plus Sonic’s cast is more notable than Mega Man’s or any characters from Final Fantasy. More people probably know Knuckles compared to someone like Dr. Wily or Roll. The only characters that might rival the Sonic cast in recognizability to a larger audience would be Chun-Li, maybe Mrs. Pac-Man

Sega and Nintendo are also on pretty good terms and have been for years, which helps. Unlike Square which left them for a good chunk of time, or Capcom which seems to do everything to screw over Switch users as they didn’t want to support the system.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I highly doubt Shadow would be an Echo Fighter. Just because his Assist Trophy is missing from the demo doesn't mean his Assist Trophy would be cut from the final game. Knuckles could just be a second Sonic Assist Trophy instead of a replacement for Shadow. Waluigi's Assist Trophy wasn't in the demo despite being shown when Sakurai demonstrated KOing ATs.

 

[7NATOR]

If he's not an echo fighter or clone he would not get in as a character

You say that with 100% certainly but you dont know, you got to consider all the possibilities. i can totally see Shadow as his own character in Smash without being a copycat of Sonic with TWO Spindashes and a Spring.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

You say that with 100% certainly but you dont know, you got to consider all the possibilities. i can totally see Shadow as his own character in Smash without being a copycat of Sonic with TWO Spindashes and a Spring.

Sakurai has mentioned that he doesn't want characters with similar silhouettes to have completely different moves because it can be confusing to players

Shadow has a similar silhouette to Sonic

No characters that look similar are going to be completely unique

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Sakurai has mentioned that he doesn't want characters with similar silhouettes to have completely different moves because it can be confusing to players

Shadow has a similar silhouette to Sonic

No characters that look similar are going to be completely unique

Oooh, there's actually a Sakurai quote that say that? Do you have a link maybe? Seems interesting!

 

[7NATOR]

Sakurai has mentioned that he doesn't want characters with similar silhouettes to have completely different moves because it can be confusing to players

Shadow has a similar silhouette to Sonic

No characters that look similar are going to be completely unique

Source on that

Also, even if that was the case, how do you explain Dr.mario, who literally is Mario in a Doctor's outfit, having different moves from Mario? also, how is anyone gonna get confused with Sonic and Shadow?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Oooh, there's actually a Sakurai quote that say that? Do you have a link maybe? Seems interesting!

I'll try to find it. It was mentioned by Source Gaming a couple of times

Source on that

Also, even if that was the case, how do you explain Dr.mario, who literally is Mario in a Doctor's outfit, having different moves from Mario.

It's not completely different from Mario

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Oooh, there's actually a Sakurai quote that say that? Do you have a link maybe? Seems interesting!

Source on that

Also, even if that was the case, how do you explain Dr.mario, who literally is Mario in a Doctor's outfit, having different moves from Mario? also, how is anyone gonna get confused with Sonic and Shadow?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8H5QkOIT_s

It's talked about in this video and has Sakurai's comments on Silhouettes

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8H5QkOIT_s

It's talked about in this video and has Sakurai's comments on Silhouettes

Oh yeah, the silhouette from Brawl's proposal!
I do think this is important. Often, people comment on character such as Fox / Wolf or Ness / Lucas because they have different attacks or properties, but the thing: you do expect an archetype when fighting these characters. If you are confusing Ness and Lucas from a distance (during an hectic battle on Great Cave Offensive for example), you do expect things like a PK Fire or the special double jump.
I also think that Lucas is the best example for the "silhouette theory". He may have different attacks on his normals, but he still is a Ness semi-clone despite not being a bonus character in game, like Ganondorf or Falco, or even Wolf. They are not echoes, but they share properties.

They even seems to make similar characters "more similar" on certain aspects (Wolf Nair, Ness using more PSI normal attacks, Luigi's UTilt), while a character like Ganondorf is allowed to get differences with his Smash attacks.

 

[7NATOR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8H5QkOIT_s

It's talked about in this video and has Sakurai's comments on Silhouettes

well damn, you got me

still though, that doesnt mean Shadow is automatically doomed to echo character status. I can understand him sharing properties with Sonic and even some moves, buts still having his own flavor like with Lucas, Wolf, Falco, and Luigi. but he doesnt have to be a Carbon Copy of Sonic with TWO Spindashes and a Spring though

 

[Untouch]

I feel as if third parties are added to represent series and companies rather than characters.
Cloud was explicitly picked to represent final fantasy for example.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

well damn, you got me

still though, that doesnt mean Shadow is automatically doomed to echo character status. I can understand him sharing properties with Sonic and even some moves, buts still having his own flavor like with Lucas, Wolf, Falco, and Luigi. but he doesnt have to be a Carbon Copy of Sonic with TWO Spindashes and a Spring though

Well, this is a matter of context. The last semi-clones are from Brawl, both new (Lucas, Wolf, Toon Link) and old (Melee's clone reworked). Smash 4 brought back full clone in the intent of keeping them clones - or should I say echo fighters. This make sense for Dark Pit (although he could use other weapons) and Lucina as she was conceived as a "beginner Marth".

Now, we have Daisy who could have not been a carbon copy of Peach (while borrowing moves), but she ends up as en Echo. I think that a limited roster and fanservice will make Shadow an Echo fighter. A popular character, yet easy to make.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Dixie is really the only one I'm interested in (Unless they can somehow make a Blastoise echo of Squirtle, just a lot bigger) and it's a sign of that since Diddy's moves were changed.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Dixie is really the only one I'm interested in (Unless they can somehow make a Blastoise echo of Squirtle, just a lot bigger) and it's a sign of that since Diddy's moves were changed.

We don't know much about Diddy, and while it indeed changed, his jab 3 was already a kick. But I can see a Dixie echo happened, despite Diddy's Up-B. Although she can maybe gain DK Up-B, like Dr. Mario who have a different Down-B compared to Mario in Smash 4.

 

[StormC]

I get that there's a fanrule that states that there can't be more than one character per third-party franchise.

But is there another fanrule that states that a third-party character needs to be in Smash three times before their franchise gets another character?

That seems to be the only reason that way too many people are favoring Sonic when others like Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, and Mega Man all have equally, if not more, diverse and robust casts.

Sonic is a bigger franchise than all of those barring Final Fantasy for one. And FF frankly has almost too many options, it would be like Pokemon: when do you stop?

I personally wouldn’t mind a second Sonic or Mega Man fighter because they have colorful, fun characters that would fit into the game well. But it’s kind of a Pandora’s Box. Once you open it there’s no going back. I’d love to just add Eggman and call it a day, but it’s not that simple.

 

[Captain Shades]

Sonic is a bigger franchise than all of those barring Final Fantasy for one. And FF frankly has almost too many options, it would be like Pokemon: when do you stop?

I personally wouldn’t mind a second Sonic or Mega Man fighter because they have colorful, fun characters that would fit into the game well. But it’s kind of a Pandora’s Box. Once you open it there’s no going back. I’d love to just add Eggman and call it a day, but it’s not that simple.

I would say Sonic is bigger than Final Fantasy, maybe not sales wise, but if you were to ask a person to name a character from them outside of Sonic or Cloud, I bet they could think of another Sonic character compared to an FF character.

If 3rd party franchises get a second character, then I believe the character needs to be recognizable to a general public, so characters like Tails, Eggman, Shadow, Chun-Li, or even Mrs. Pac-Man stand the biggest chance. Mega Man is well known, but his supporting cast is usually forgotten, FF has too many to count and the only talked about main protagonist is Cloud, Bayonetta is niche, and Metal Gear may still be a little to obscure to pull from.

I don’t hate the idea of 3rd parties getting two fighters, I just feel those characters need to be as recognizable as their main character. As an example, Street Fighter is almost always represented by both Ryu and Chun-Li. The characters are basically tethered to each other, so I wouldn’t mind Chun getting in. Shadow is highly recognizable for Sonic being the second most popular character, and Eggman is up there with Bowser in the ranks of Video Game villains, and Tails is always seen as the Luigi of Sonic and a character Sonic can’t go without. These characters need to be icons that once you see, you know what franchise they’re from

Dixie is really the only one I'm interested in (Unless they can somehow make a Blastoise echo of Squirtle, just a lot bigger) and it's a sign of that since Diddy's moves were changed.

Dixie has to be a Semi-Clone. She would look similar yet very different from Diddy in a silhouette thanks to the hair. She would probably function like Dr. Mario; The Peanut pop-gun is replaced with a Bubblegum Gun, the side grab could be propelled with Dixie’s hair, and Diddy’s jet pack can be replaced with Dixie’s hair.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Dixie isn't even a third-party character so I don't know how she got into this conversation.

 

[Oddball]

I think a lot of people oversell Shadow's importance and recognition.

Sure a lot of people know who he is and he got his own game, but the game wasn't exactly well received and Shadow is frequently critizied as a character. He's very much comparable to Tingle, he's famous but a lot of but he's not exactly famous for all the right reasons.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think a lot of people oversell Shadow's importance and recognition.

Sure a lot of people know who he is and he got his own game, but the game wasn't exactly well received and Shadow is frequently critizied as a character. He's very much comparable to Tingle, he's famous but a lot of but he's not exactly famous for all the right reasons.

As much as Shadow’s hatedom would like it if it was a Tingle situation, the reality is far from that. There is an entire generation of people who grew up with Shadow as a character, and while yes he is a product of his time and many of the tropes he embodies have become trite, that really doesn’t change his standing with most people. He is iconic and he is popular, maybe despite, maybe because of those qualities.
Hell, at this point criticizing Shadow for being a stereotypical ‘edgy rival’ has become as old hat as complaining about Peach getting kidnapped over and over again. It’s an easy joke, sure, but few actually believe it as legitimate criticism.

 

[Captain Shades]

I think a lot of people oversell Shadow's importance and recognition.

Sure a lot of people know who he is and he got his own game, but the game wasn't exactly well received and Shadow is frequently critizied as a character. He's very much comparable to Tingle, he's famous but a lot of but he's not exactly famous for all the right reasons.

To start, you basically described the Sonic franchise in general as Sonic himself has basically become a meme and is frequently criticized by everyone since 06.

Shadow is important to Sonic, he was basically the main character of the first Sonic title to go third-party. Many experienced him through SA2 being their first Sonic game. He became widely popular afterwards so Sega had to bring him back in Heroes, another good to decent game. I think the fact that Shadow then got his own game, only highlighted how important he became to the franchise, that Sega felt that he could break away from Sonic.

Now lets look to the post-06 era. Sonic basically started stripping down his cast significantly, and almost all titles had the main 7 characters of Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Eggman, Orbot, and Q-bot. Spin-offs still used Shadow, like Sonic and the Black Knight. Even with this cast, Shadow does still make appearances in the modern era, like Boom which took time praising him, All-Stars racing where he is playable, and he was of course in Generations. No other post-Saturn era characters got quite as much recognition in this era as Shadow.

Now to end, the current era is finally pushing for a bigger cast, and of course Shadow has become the main draw of new titles, with Team Racing focusing on Sonic and Shadow, Forces giving Shadow a returning villain role along with him being playable with his own story.

Shadow is important to Sonic, and is now even more relevant than ever, so I wouldn’t mind seeing him in Smash as he was a good character for Sonic. He really only had one really bad game to his name and I think people are over it, as he clearly still retains his popularity in the Sonic community. Yeah, there are jokes surrounding him, but that’s Sonic in general, if you get on him then why not mention the other characters who people say are ruined; like Sonic becoming an irritating, Tails becoming a whiny, Knuckles becoming a dumb, Amy becoming a nag, Eggman literally becoming a punching bag and a complete joke villain with no reason to fear him. Shadow is actually better written than almost all of Sonic’s cast in newer titles with the only exception being Silver for some reason.

 

[Quillion]

People are favoring Sonic because he has the most history with Nintendo. He was a rival, literally on-par with Mario for a whole era, then Sega became third party and put Sonic on Nintendo systems first. Sonic was the second third party to ever get in Smash and is the most consistent in staying through all titles. Not to mention how Sonic has many exclusive titles on Nintendo systems, and even has a crossover title, unlike any of the other third parties in Smash.

Plus Sonic’s cast is more notable than Mega Man’s or any characters from Final Fantasy. More people probably know Knuckles compared to someone like Dr. Wily or Roll. The only characters that might rival the Sonic cast in recognizability to a larger audience would be Chun-Li, maybe Mrs. Pac-Man

Sega and Nintendo are also on pretty good terms and have been for years, which helps. Unlike Square which left them for a good chunk of time, or Capcom which seems to do everything to screw over Switch users as they didn’t want to support the system.

Certainly hard to argue with this, but I also have to note that Sonic is the only thing that Sega is willing to support the Switch with (Bayonetta doesn't count since Sega is very hands-off with that IP). Everything else like... Yakuza and Virtua Fighter remains off Nintendo consoles.

I'd also like to note that Capcom has consistently supported the vast majority of Nintendo consoles, home and handheld, with Mega Man. I think it's too early for Zero to come in, but if we're limiting to Echo fighters, Proto Man copying Link's shield gimmick while still having Mega Man as a template would work as well. Capcom has even given the dedicated Nintendo crowd the opportunity to catch up on years of Street Fighter with the Anniversary Collection, and the SNES version of SF2 was even Capcom's best-selling game for a very, very long time.

 

[Captain Shades]

Certainly hard to argue with this, but I also have to note that Sonic is the only thing that Sega is willing to support the Switch with (Bayonetta doesn't count since Sega is very hands-off with that IP). Everything else like... Yakuza and Virtua Fighter remains off Nintendo consoles.

I'd also like to note that Capcom has consistently supported the vast majority of Nintendo consoles, home and handheld, with Mega Man. I think it's too early for Zero to come in, but if we're limiting to Echo fighters, Proto Man copying Link's shield gimmick while still having Mega Man as a template would work as well. Capcom has even given the dedicated Nintendo crowd the opportunity to catch up on years of Street Fighter with the Anniversary Collection, and the SNES version of SF2 was even Capcom's best-selling game for a very, very long time.

I can agree with your point on Capcom, as they have been with Nintendo for awhile. Their support is just weird now a days. While it’s nice to have all Street Fighters, remember the only reason Switch owners got it was because we had to shell out 40 bucks to another rendition of SF2 so Capcom can see sales potential. We also have the download only titles because Capcom doesn’t want to pay for physical cartridges, and the lack of some of their big titles, like MVCI on Switch.

As for Sega, I forgot/didn’t know about the other franchises. Sega really is just the Sonic house at this point. Sega has been very good at supporting Nintendo systems though with franchises like Sonic, their crossover titles, Super Monkey Ball, Knights, and some of ATLUS’s games are all on Nintendo hardware, with many being exclusives or a cross release.

 

[Arcadenik]

In my opinion, no.

They are non-Nintendo guests in a Nintendo crossover fighting games. The focus should be on Nintendo characters and franchises.

Sure, Capcom can get more characters in Smash but it should be one character per Capcom franchise. Mega Man series gets Mega Man and Street Fighter series gets Ryu and Okami series gets Amaterasu and so on.

Not Mega Man series gets Mega Man, Zero, Sigma, etc. and Street Fighter series gets Ryu, Chun Li, M. Bison, etc. and Okami series gets Amaterasu, Susano, Waka, etc. This is Super Smash Bros., not Nintendo vs. Capcom.

To me, one character per third-party franchise makes that guest character more special in a Nintendo crossover fighting game.

 

[Juliusaurus]

If the franchise is big enough and the character iconic/important enough, then yes, definitely yes.

Ryu already defied expectations by being another newcomer from the same third party company, it's not like there's any rules here that says there can only be one. But I do like that they aren't going overboard with them, this is still a primarily Nintendo affair. And then we got Bayonetta, another Sega rep.

But if you ask me, when it comes to the same franchise from a third party, there's really not a whole lot of candidates. The only one I'd consider is maybe Sonic, and Pac-Man. Tails would be a great choice, even Shadow could work. They're both second bananas to Sonic in a way, and the Sonic franchise is a huge and iconic one, and those characters themselves are pretty important to the franchise too.

As for Pac-Man, well, Ms. Pac-Man would make for a pretty easy Echo, and she's most definitely a video game icon, bigger than any side character from Sonic or Mega Man in terms of being recognizable and iconic. But I'd also throw a bone over to Chun-Li from Street Fighter, or maybe even Ken. Those are pretty big iconic characters too... but perhaps I'd save them for Assist Trophy.

Point being, yes, I think if the franchise and/or the character is big enough of an icon and is important to gaming history, they should be considered for Smash Bros.

 

[dezeray112]

Personally I do not mind at all on third party inclusions and just as the others had stated as long as they had not only played a part of Nintendo's history but also within video games history.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I would tolerate third-party characters from the same series in Super Smash Bros better than... sigh... Injustice. Mortal Kombat and Ninja Turtles do not belong in a DC Universe game! But Sega, Capcom, Konami, Square Enix, Ubisoft, the Indies, etc. could submit their characters to Nintendo for consideration for Super Smash Bros because Smash is a crossover of unrelated franchises.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Mortal Kombat and Ninja Turtles do not belong in a DC Universe game!

Agree about Mortal Kombat, but the Turtles were great choices. Injustice is a game about comic book characters fighting, and the Turtles are comic book characters. That's why Hellboy was also a great pick.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Agree about Mortal Kombat, but the Turtles were great choices. Injustice is a game about comic book characters fighting, and the Turtles are comic book characters. That's why Hellboy was also a great pick.

I actually think they should have gone with Lobo instead of Hellboy. And the Turtles look weird standing next to the Justice League because they are a big franchise that you would not associate with DC. A Marvel character would have been a better pick than those guys, because it's like how Sonic was included in Smash to fight his company rivals. Okay, maybe I'm a little more biased about how Injustice does it because DC's an established shared universe with every character DC owns living in the same world as the Justice League while Super Smash Bros is the only series where Samus Aran could meet Marth.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I actually think they should have gone with Lobo instead of Hellboy. And the Turtles look weird standing next to the Justice League because they are a big franchise that you would not associate with DC. A Marvel character would have been a better pick than those guys, because it's like how Sonic was included in Smash to fight his company rivals. Okay, maybe I'm a little more biased about how Injustice does it because DC's an established shared universe with every character DC owns living in the same world as the Justice League while Super Smash Bros is the only series where Samus Aran could meet Marth.

Lobo was in the first Injustice though and plays literally nothing like Hellboy

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I was actually a bit diappointed by Neatherrealm's DLC. Crossovers aren't really my thing at all, so four horror movie characters in MKX? Two MK characters in Injustice?

I could deal with that turtles and Hellboy, but I do think that crossover characters should be rare and special, not shoved in just because they like the characters.

A Marvel character would have been a better pick than those guys, because it's like how Sonic was included in Smash to fight his company rivals.

I don't know if I'd have liked one character: I need this as a full game - Marvel vs. DC.

That would make bank.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Crossovers aren't really my thing at all

But

But you’re in Smashboards



Smash is a crossover

 

[Quillion]

Personally I do not mind at all on third party inclusions and just as the others had stated as long as they had not only played a part of Nintendo's history but also within video games history.

I think the only restriction is that Sony's first-party characters don't get in, and even then that's more Sony's terms than Nintendo's.

I don't think limiting characters to just Nintendo's history is a rule, especially since we're running out of franchises with a significant presence on Nintendo consoles anyway.

 

[Captain Shades]

I actually think they should have gone with Lobo instead of Hellboy. And the Turtles look weird standing next to the Justice League because they are a big franchise that you would not associate with DC. A Marvel character would have been a better pick than those guys, because it's like how Sonic was included in Smash to fight his company rivals. Okay, maybe I'm a little more biased about how Injustice does it because DC's an established shared universe with every character DC owns living in the same world as the Justice League while Super Smash Bros is the only series where Samus Aran could meet Marth.

You do know that the Ninja Turtles has a full crossover series with Batman right? MK also crossed over with DC before with the game Mortal Kombat vs DC Comics.

I think the only restriction is that Sony's first-party characters don't get in, and even then that's more Sony's terms than Nintendo's.

I don't think limiting characters to just Nintendo's history is a rule, especially since we're running out of franchises with a significant presence on Nintendo consoles anyway.

There are still franchises with significant history in gaming and are on Nintendo consoles to choose, especially since we only get 2 third party franchises in the base roster of Smash.

They could have Rayman, Shovel Knight, Phoenix Wright, Resident Evil, Nights, Shantae, Bit Trip, Skyrim, Doom, Rabbids, Okami, Castlevania, and if Microsoft allows it Banjo, Conker, or Steve could get in. To throw in a weird one, Sakurai has played Undertale, which is coming to Switch, so Sans could potentially get in.