[MU] Zero Suit Samus

DUKEL

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Went to find more info on this matchup only to find it hadn't been discussed by either party. So lets get this started, shall we?

I feel like she's a dangerous character to face, since you have to avoid her stun gun, while also avoiding her grab. Her punish game is strong as hell too. So what has worked for you all when facing the Samus-that-shouldn't-be-better?
 

8MAN

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Ok, first of all, Zero Suit beats Link in the air and in nuetral. Her punish game as well as her combo game is very good. Link will probably have to focus on avoiding paralyzer shots and zoning Zero Suit out, which is pretty difficult considering her excellent mobility options.
Zero Suit's Assets:
>Paralyzer Shot and Down Smash have huge payoffs
>Down Special can bury opponents and at higher percents, leads into a guarenteed Up Special
>Down Special also can also meteor airborne opponents as well as kill if Zero Suit intiates the kick
>Zero Suit has good ground speed and one the highest jumps in the game
>Three reliable recovery options, zair/side special tethers, down special, and up special
>Jab and Utilt come out very fast, Jab might be frame 2
>Usmash has excellent aerial coverage
>Tether grab, although slow, stays out for a longer time than normal grabs, meaning Zero Suit can occasionally catch rolls and spot dodges
>Down throw true combos into Uair, Fair, or Bair
>Uair is a great juggling tool and strings into itself similar to Captain Falcon's uair
>Bair hits high, but does the most knockback out of all of Zero Suits aerials, one of her kill moves
>Fair hits twice, second kick is capable of killing while the first is not
>Nair is decently strong dealing 10%
>Dair is the standard stall and fall kick, meteors in the beginning of the attack
>Up Special is Zero Suits best kill move, as it can be comboed into Uair strings and kill rediculously early
>Simon Belmont Zair is arguably better than Link's, as it comes out decently fast and pairs better with Zero Suits mobility
 
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smokebomb12

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Its not hard to avoid ZSS, you have to fake out a few moves in order to get the moves you want to register a hit.

The stun gun WILL ALMOST ALWAYS lead to her long grab. DO NOT try to hylian shield her stun gun, Naked Samus is quick and can easily lead to her grab combo. The way I evade this is depending on distance, If your close o her then shield quickly and spot dodge, or you could roll behind her but you could be easily read. If your far and you know she is coming for the dash grab, jump and kick that ***** with a Nair. Don't roll away from her grabbing beamy thingy, this can lead to easy predictions and does not work all the time. In case of all this always have a bomb in hand or at least throw one into the air to where it will hit you or ZZS.

Don't throw boomerangs at her because ZSS has a really good roll and does not have a big hurt box. Use the boomerang when she does her Dspecial. Use uncharged arrows to gimp ZSS in to doing her D special. I have more but I got school.
 

Lawz.

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If the ZSS notices a pattern, they can use her insane air mobility to make moves and projectiles whiff by jumping away and b reverse the stun gun back during your cool down animations. Don't get predictable and if your fallback reaction is to grab, get rekt.

Also, her dsmash covers most of your getups from the ledge so long as they time that 1 frame of vulnerability. If this hits, you're risking an uair string or a down b spike.

A good ZSS won't approach with a grab, that's just dumb. They'll be doing short hop nairs and using stun gun to pressure you and THEN go for grabs after they get used to your shielding/reaction habits.

It's best to limit slower projectiles (boomerang, arrows) and stick to bombs, zair and jabs for quicker defensive options.

If you happen to get dthrown, don't go mashing airdodge at every opportunity. Learn when her moves no longer true combo so you understand when a ZSS is trying to read your landing options.
 

JTF

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ZSS will always try to juggle you all day, so you need to keep her out. Run away and keep up a wall and if you do want to go in poke with fair or nair. When she gets a confirm into grab(what they will always try to do) always DI away so you will not get as destroyed with up airs.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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One of the better players I know is a Link main and I still have trouble to get in properly (lack of MU knowledge).
He uses a lot of bombs and bomb traps and the boomerang as well.
He utilizes his zAir pretty well too.
You should never or very rarely use your arrows. If we get the soft read, that's most likely a free dSpecial kick in your face.
 

emefcue

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I played against nickriddle at CEO and I had a very hard time against his zero suit samus. You can not challenge her speed on the ground or the air or you will be severely punished. Do not try to use neutral air's as an approach, a few of her moves such as up smash will beat it. You do NOT want to be in the air against a zss or off the edge.

The only way I could really connect hits was with projectile and jab combos. Grabs can work but can be risky if you miss the grab because of zss stun and grab options. I hate to say this but i think a lot of rolling and mind games and spacing/zoning is the only way to beat a competent zss player.
 

Freakeh

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Hows it goin guys. I had a few matches the other day with a pretty good ZSS and I saved a match if you guys are interested in watching it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3eVnAzgvI

Other than that I think this match up is pretty hard. I find myself jumping all over the place while using my boomerang and arrows to keep her back while trying to approach her. Also throwing bomb to keep her moving is always good. I try to make her run into a grab an just combo her from there.
 

Catana

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Hows it goin guys. I had a few matches the other day with a pretty good ZSS and I saved a match if you guys are interested in watching it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3eVnAzgvI

Other than that I think this match up is pretty hard. I find myself jumping all over the place while using my boomerang and arrows to keep her back while trying to approach her. Also throwing bomb to keep her moving is always good. I try to make her run into a grab an just combo her from there.
That ZSS isnt good at all. Dont delude other people into trying to make them think that this is what good ZSS players play like, because 1. she got 2stocked by a random like you and 2. she did not know the matchup at all.
Low-level, roll-happy FG **** like this does in no way contribute to the match up, or to anything in general. Though your effort is appreciated, you should get some more experience and not present this as footage that could help anyone learn the matchup better.
 

Dirtytarget

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That ZSS isnt good at all. Dont delude other people into trying to make them think that this is what good ZSS players play like, because 1. she got 2stocked by a random like you and 2. she did not know the matchup at all.
Low-level, roll-happy FG **** like this does in no way contribute to the match up, or to anything in general. Though your effort is appreciated, you should get some more experience and not present this as footage that could help anyone learn the matchup better.
That came out soooo pretentious
 

Tobi_Whatever

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Heavy rolling against ZSS is a death wish. Retreating zAir is good, but don't get predictable or you will eat a DA every time.
 

M23-X0

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One good thing I discovered against this matchup, is how often I succeeded doing the jump -> bomb -> footstool combo against her.

ZSS is too fast for Link, and your opponent will want to make use of this speed. When you'll take your bomb, ZSS will try the dash attack -> this is when you have to jump and down throw the bomb at her, then footstool and Dair. You'll make a good amount of damage. It helps a lot at the beginning of the match.

You could also try it near the edge, going for the spike.
 
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Catana

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One good thing I discovered against this matchup, is how often I succeeded doing the jump -> bomb -> footstool combo against her.
That has nothing to do with the matchup, just with the fact that your opponents were bad.

When you'll take your bomb, ZSS will try the dash attack -> this is when you have to jump and down throw the bomb at her, then footstool and Dair. You'll make a good amount of damage. It helps a lot at the beginning of the match.
Same as I just said; your opponents were bad and also had no brains. Not all ZSS players do the same **** over and over again while getting punished for it every single time. Only bad ones do.
 
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M23-X0

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That has nothing to do with the matchup, just with the fact that your opponents were bad.


Same as I just said; your opponents were bad and also had no brains. Not all ZSS players do the same **** over and over again while getting punished for it every single time. Only bad ones do.
Actually, it works 1 or 2 times max against the same player. Never I said it was over and over again against the same person.

Give it a try at least.
 

Catana

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Actually, it works 1 or 2 times max against the same player. Never I said it was over and over again against the same person.

Give it a try at least.
Holy ****, we all know that this is possible so dont make it look like it's something new and worth sharing because it really isn't.
And even if you do share it, don't do it in a ****ing MU thread pretending its MU specific.
 

M23-X0

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Holy ****, we all know that this is possible so dont make it look like it's something new and worth sharing because it really isn't.
And even if you do share it, don't do it in a ****ing MU thread pretending its MU specific.
Why does it work better against ZSS? ZSS mains rely a lot in the dash attack when spaced correctly. As a Link main, you can bait them into the bombo footstool combo. Yes it's true that this will also work against similar character. But not against everyone. An Ike or a Peach won't be easily baited.

This matchup is hard for Link because of ZSS' speed. And I thought this was worth sharing because it helped me.

If you think it's not worth sharing, some other may find it useful. Isn't that the purpose of this thread?

And please keep in mind that not everyone is a pro player. Some of us here needs advice, whether it's against pro or bad player.

Please also calm down with the use of curses. It makes your critique less interesting.
 

Catana

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Why does it work better against ZSS? ZSS mains rely a lot in the dash attack when spaced correctly.
No they don't, you dont know **** about actual ZSS mains or the character.

As a Link main, you can bait them into the bombo footstool combo. Yes it's true that this will also work against similar character. But not against everyone. An Ike or a Peach won't be easily baited.
It does work against everyone as long as you successfully bait them, dear ****ing god.

If you think it's not worth sharing, some other may find it useful. Isn't that the purpose of this thread?
You dont need to post your silly, already well-known combos in a goddamn MU thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Link - ZSS MU at HIGH LEVEL. Your useless trash isnt helping nor contributing in any single way.

And please keep in mind that not everyone is a pro player. Some of us here needs advice, whether it's against pro or bad player.
Yeah, I hope you're also referring to yourself because its beyond obvious you're not a ''pro'' player. That's why you shouldnt post stuff like this as if it helps and works against competent players (or in the MU for that matter). What you need to do is ask questions here if you're new and inexperienced, rather than making claims.

Please also calm down with the use of curses. It makes your critique less interesting.
You have no idea of where you are or who I am, do you? Kid. I suggest you be careful with your posts.
 

M23-X0

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Your useless trash isnt helping nor contributing in any single way.
And do you think your posts are contributing to this thread ?

Yeah, I hope you're also referring to yourself because its beyond obvious you're not a ''pro'' player. That's why you shouldnt post stuff like this as if it helps and works against competent players (or in the MU for that matter). What you need to do is ask questions here if you're new and inexperienced, rather than making claims.
I may not be a pro player, but I'm still not that bad. You'll judge this nothing, but I placed top 12 on the last two national tourney I was, and I won some local tornaments. I hate to say this, but I played the game enough to not be considered a newbie.

You have no idea of where you are or who I am, do you? Kid. I suggest you be careful with your posts.
Is your identity is important for the discussion ? If no, I don't care then. Technically, I'm not a kid. And I may even be four years older than you. This shouldn't even be important, but... I'll just ignore you from now because you don't seem mature enough to hold a smart conversation.
 

Catana

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And do you think your posts are contributing to this thread ?
Calling you out for your ignorance is contributing in its own way.

I may not be a pro player, but I'm still not that bad. You'll judge this nothing, but I placed top 12 on the last two national tourney I was, and I won some local tornaments. I hate to say this, but I played the game enough to not be considered a newbie.
lol

I'll just ignore you from now because you don't seem mature enough to hold a smart conversation.
If you'd like to have such a ''discussion'', then PM me as this is indeed not relevant to this thread. I've said what I had to anyway.
 

ShadowKing

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ZSS will try to start the match up with a grab-3uair so i suggest use bombs arrows and his boomerrang to space her even throw some bombs up so when ZSS grabs you the bomb will break you free even after being thrown
 

Catana

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ZSS will try to start the match up with a grab-3uair so i suggest use bombs arrows and his boomerrang to space her even throw some bombs up so when ZSS grabs you the bomb will break you free even after being thrown
No, this is not how ZSS will start the match up. This is only how dumb, greedy and reckless ZSS players will start it. Those uairs wont even combo at 0% without rage anyway.
And why rely on throwing the bomb up? She can still easily get around it even when she gets the grab. You should just throw it towards her when you anticipate the grab, so that even if she does get it, you'll immediately break free before she can even throw or pummel rather than hoping the bomb you threw up to come down. Even then, its still better to avoid the grab all together if you can by rolling behind her, sidestepping or just whatever works in the siatuation you're in for a much better punishing oppertunity as her grab has so much end lag.
 

Nimious

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Link can actually fight ZSS off her Up Air string to Boost Kick with Dair. Unlike a lot of other characters who have to either pick jump or spot dodge Link's Dair will beat it out.

There has to be some distance to compensate for frame difference as Boost Kick is frame 4 and Dair at earliest is frame 14. If you're mashing it out of hit stun though it shouldn't be that much of a difference.

It's also important to judge the angle at which you and the ZSS are. If ZSS Boost Kicks you from the side Dair won't help you but at that angle you shouldn't pick Dair as your option anyways.

If you don't hit ZSS with the Dair itself you're in a fairly bad position as ZSS would be hunting to Bair you if she baits it out or lands before you. However that doesn't mean they'll always punish you for it so use discretion.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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Link can actually fight ZSS off her Up Air string to Boost Kick with Dair. Unlike a lot of other characters who have to either pick jump or spot dodge Link's Dair will beat it out.

There has to be some distance to compensate for frame difference as Boost Kick is frame 4 and Dair at earliest is frame 14. If you're mashing it out of hit stun though it shouldn't be that much of a difference.

It's also important to judge the angle at which you and the ZSS are. If ZSS Boost Kicks you from the side Dair won't help you but at that angle you shouldn't pick Dair as your option anyways.

If you don't hit ZSS with the Dair itself you're in a fairly bad position as ZSS would be hunting to Bair you if she baits it out or lands before you. However that doesn't mean they'll always punish you for it so use discretion.
If we do it right, dAir won't help you at all.
Our BnB is a true combo after all. DI and pray is your only option if you get grabbed anywhere between 35%-45% without rage
 
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Nimious

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If we do it right, dAir won't help you at all.
Our BnB is a true combo after all. DI and pray is your only option if you get grabbed anywhere between 35%-45% without rage
At the percentage where it does true combo you're not going to die unless you're DIing to die. When it can actually realistically kill you that's when Dair becomes a real option.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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At the percentage where it does true combo you're not going to die unless you're DIing to die. When it can actually realistically kill you that's when Dair becomes a real option.
When it can actually realistically kill me I can't even do the BnB.
 

Nimious

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When it can actually realistically kill me I can't even do the BnB.
What? I'm talking about situations and percentages where it doesn't true combo. Obviously when in true combo situations the best you can do is DI.

However unless you're one of the rare ZSS who just won't Boost Kick once it doesn't true combo I don't see how you can imply you haven't been in these situations. For example Link at around 80% being hit by Up Air by ZSS with no or low rage would be one of the situations where a ZSS could go for Boost Kick. At around that percentage Link could also die depending on the stage position.

Dair application is also useful if a ZSS hesitates or is waiting for an air dodge before Boost Kick.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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What? I'm talking about situations and percentages where it doesn't true combo. Obviously when in true combo situations the best you can do is DI.

However unless you're one of the rare ZSS who just won't Boost Kick once it doesn't true combo I don't see how you can imply you haven't been in these situations. For example Link at around 80% being hit by Up Air by ZSS with no or low rage would be one of the situations where a ZSS could go for Boost Kick. At around that percentage Link could also die depending on the stage position.

Dair application is also useful if a ZSS hesitates or is waiting for an air dodge before Boost Kick.
No decent ZSS with MU experience would ever do that.
In my opinion, reliance on player inexperience has no place in theoretical MU discussion.
 

Nimious

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No decent ZSS with MU experience would ever do that.
In my opinion, reliance on player inexperience has no place in theoretical MU discussion.
As if top level ZSS never go for Boost Kick when it isn't a true combo... They don't bait for air dodges either right?

It's as if they never miss Boost Kicks.... Come on.
 

Lawz.

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Link's dair is NOT an option for getting out of an uair juggle situation, are you kidding me? Do you really think someone like Nairo would fall for something like that? Give me a break.

If the discussion is not about two HIGH LEVEL opponents with equal skill/knowledge of the matchup, do NOT post your two cents. End of story.

This is also not a place to start theory crafting.
 

Nimious

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Link's dair is NOT an option for getting out of an uair juggle situation, are you kidding me? Do you really think someone like Nairo would fall for something like that? Give me a break.

If the discussion is not about two HIGH LEVEL opponents with equal skill/knowledge of the matchup, do NOT post your two cents. End of story.

This is also not a place to start theory crafting.
Then what are your options in an Up Air juggle situation?

When did I say it will get you out of an Up Air string? I said you need a bit of distance for you to fight it off. What are you suggesting then? When you pick jump and get it taken away by an Up Air what do you do? Start praying you somehow manage to air dodge through the following Up Airs? Link has poor aerial movement and Dair has an application.

You sure love to say theory crafting Lawz when this can't possibly have happened to me or any other Link. Oh wait it happened to me in tourney on stream. Apparently no ZSS ever will try and bait an air dodge...?

Aside from myself doing it I've seen Izaw do the same in tourney vs SK in either Winners Final or Grand Final. It's also on stream.

It's an option, not that you'd ever know anything about this MU in tourney as you'd just switch to Sheik.
 
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Lawz.

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Then what are your options in an Up Air juggle situation?

When did I say it will get you out of an Up Air string? I said you need a bit of distance for you to fight it off. What are you suggesting then? When you pick jump and get it taken away by an Up Air what do you do? Start praying you somehow manage to air dodge through the following Up Airs? Link has poor aerial movement and Dair has an application.

You sure love to say theory crafting Lawz when this can't possibly have happened to me or any other Link. Oh wait it happened to me in tourney on stream. Apparently no ZSS ever will try and bait an air dodge...?

Aside from myself doing it I've seen Izaw do the same in tourney vs SK in either Winners Final or Grand Final. It's also on stream.

It's an option, not that you'd ever know anything about this MU in tourney as you'd just switch to Sheik.
The questions you are asking are WHY Link loses the matchup (most matchups in fact). Dair is slow, doesn't have the same off the top kill power as previous iterations AND gets baited hard. You shouldn't be using that move in general as it DOESN'T have an application in this matchup, unless you plan on losing. I would expect to not have to actually argue about something like this, but clearly I was wrong.

Again, this is for HIGH LEVEL players in this scenario, and the options you suggest aren't any where near high level. Listen to Tobi_Whatever Tobi_Whatever you know, someone who actually uses the character and is also telling you that you're wrong. Unless you're suggesting you know more about what ZSS would do in this scenario more than an actual ZSS player.

And please refrain from trying to belittle me with cute remarks, you don't know me. I've also played more higher level players as Link than you (LoF members for example) I guarantee it.
 

Nimious

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The questions you are asking are WHY Link loses the matchup (most matchups in fact). Dair is slow, doesn't have the same off the top kill power as previous iterations AND gets baited hard. You shouldn't be using that move in general as it DOESN'T have an application in this matchup, unless you plan on losing. I would expect to not have to actually argue about something like this, but clearly I was wrong.

Again, this is for HIGH LEVEL players in this scenario, and the options you suggest aren't any where near high level. Listen to Tobi_Whatever Tobi_Whatever you know, someone who actually uses the character and is also telling you that you're wrong. Unless you're suggesting you know more about what ZSS would do in this scenario more than an actual ZSS player.

And please refrain from trying to belittle me with cute remarks, you don't know me. I've also played more higher level players as Link than you (LoF members for example) I guarantee it.
You don't know me either and you certainly don't know this MU at the high level or even the low level.

I've played it plenty of times in tourney and out of it. When you have to play it you'd realize you have to Dair. Specifically when you lose your jump and are completely at the mercy of the ZSS below you. You can't offer an explanation or even options and only hint at how bad it is all the while ignoring Dair. It doesn't occur to you what ZSS will have to do once you Dair. For one thing she won't be Up Airing you anymore she'll usually have to Bair you which would allow you to land instead of eating three more Up Airs and possibly a Boost Kick.

Not that you'd know since of course you don't play this MU.

If you don't believe me the easiest thing to do is to ask Izaw why he uses Dair as he's someone else who has to play this MU.

As for taking the opinion of a real ZSS main, I have and do as one of the players here on the PR is a ZSS main. We play quite often in friendlies and tourney but I suppose that can't possibly mean real experience instead of more "theory crafting" that you've called me out on.

You can guarantee you've played more higher level players than me? Possibly but I attend whatever tourneys I can including Summit where I got to meet and play some of Canada's best. I do so as a Link main something that you can't even pretend to be anymore.
 

Lawz.

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You don't know me either and you certainly don't know this MU at the high level or even the low level.

I've played it plenty of times in tourney and out of it. When you have to play it you'd realize you have to Dair. Specifically when you lose your jump and are completely at the mercy of the ZSS below you. You can't offer an explanation or even options and only hint at how bad it is all the while ignoring Dair. It doesn't occur to you what ZSS will have to do once you Dair. For one thing she won't be Up Airing you anymore she'll usually have to Bair you which would allow you to land instead of eating three more Up Airs and possibly a Boost Kick.

Not that you'd know since of course you don't play this MU.

If you don't believe me the easiest thing to do is to ask Izaw why he uses Dair as he's someone else who has to play this MU.

As for taking the opinion of a real ZSS main, I have and do as one of the players here on the PR is a ZSS main. We play quite often in friendlies and tourney but I suppose that can't possibly mean real experience instead of more "theory crafting" that you've called me out on.

You can guarantee you've played more higher level players than me? Possibly but I attend whatever tourneys I can including Summit where I got to meet and play some of Canada's best. I do so as a Link main something that you can't even pretend to be anymore.
I certainly have played it as Link, and dair isn't a realistic option because even IF the option happens to work once, the ZSS can just bait out and punish because that's what smart ZSS can do. As you even stated she can just bair you to punish which can just send you offstage since her bair is a kill move lmao. So not only will ZSS do her BnB to get you in the air and land guaranteed damage, she can just switch to doing bair instead of uair and still land high damage on Link. And that's not even her only option, she can just avoid it and punish your landing and send you back up again. So your lousy "option" serves zero purpose.

You obviously didn't think past the thought of "what if my equally skilled high level opponent expects the dair after the first time?". Here's an answer, you get smacked offstage (at best) and still take lots of damage.

Dair is slow as hell and only serves as a one and done option, which means that it isn't even a real option because it's unsafe and serves as high risk and low reward since its off-the-top KO potential is hilariously bad.

Again, this is a discussion about two equally skilled, high level opponents. Not " what option can I mash out against someone who doesn't know the matchup".

And the only person pretending would be you. Pretending like the "advice" you're giving actually holds weight against solid competition. Which it doesn't.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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For one thing she won't be Up Airing you anymore
But that is wrong. Our uAir has big horizontal range. So big we even started using pre patch uAir as neutral tool since it's safe on shield if spaced correctly.
 

Nimious

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I certainly have played it as Link, and dair isn't a realistic option because even IF the option happens to work once, the ZSS can just bait out and punish because that's what smart ZSS can do. As you even stated she can just bair you to punish which can just send you offstage since her bair is a kill move lmao. So not only will ZSS do her BnB to get you in the air and land guaranteed damage, she can just switch to doing bair instead of uair and still land high damage on Link. And that's not even her only option, she can just avoid it and punish your landing and send you back up again. So your lousy "option" serves zero purpose.

You obviously didn't think past the thought of "what if my equally skilled high level opponent expects the dair after the first time?". Here's an answer, you get smacked offstage (at best) and still take lots of damage.

Dair is slow as hell and only serves as a one and done option, which means that it isn't even a real option because it's unsafe and serves as high risk and low reward since its off-the-top KO potential is hilariously bad.

Again, this is a discussion about two equally skilled, high level opponents. Not " what option can I mash out against someone who doesn't know the matchup".

And the only person pretending would be you. Pretending like the "advice" you're giving actually holds weight against solid competition. Which it doesn't.
Are you bad with numbers too? Even if Dair gets baited you're taking at most two Bairs which is significantly better than taking multiple Up Airs and a possible Boost Kick.

I'm not suggesting to try using Dair so far off stage that a Bair is going to kill you nor am I suggesting to Dair into the ground lol.

I'm not suggesting to mindlessly do it and at every chance which you seem to think is the suggestion.

I'm certainly not suggesting to use this to kill the ZSS now but you're going into it anyways.

It must be nice to go on and on about possible scenarios that you just started thinking about and haven't experienced. Good theory crafting Lawz.

This is suppose to be a discussion about the MU but you're so far removed from Link and this MU that you really have no idea what you can and can't do. You're not the one playing it in tourney every week and certainly not the one researching into it.

Jump and air dodge are often even worse options than Dair. Say you managed to jump (which would be difficult anyways), ZSS has more than enough speed to hunt you at your next landing spot. The best you can do is pull that bomb and hope it'll save you by intercepting her or blowing you out of getting comboed. If you air dodge well she's still on top of you and she can Up Air faster than you can mash out your second air dodge.

I could go into more detail but you've already implied these are the options you should pick instead of Dair.

I'll refer to Izaw vs SK since you think I'm a Link main pretender like yourself now. SK is clearly a good ZSS. That's solid competition that Izaw found some success using Dair in. It's a shame the stream is now deleted (was on spyroul's Twitch channel) but you should ask Izaw why he even picked that option and how it worked out for him since you obviously won't listen to me.

But that is wrong. Our uAir has big horizontal range. So big we even started using pre patch uAir as neutral tool since it's safe on shield if spaced correctly.
Yes it's possible to hit Link past Dair if you avoid the sword and clip him to the side but realistically Link would be moving left or right in the air. In the application I'm talking about Link would be basically straight above you so you'll have to get clear to a side before even trying it. He can shift and try to force a whiff from Up Air or commit to a direction and try to have it hit. This makes it hard for ZSS and from personal experience the ZSS here have stopped trying to Up Air past Dair picking Bair since it's so much safer or going for a grab or dash attack upon landing (could be spot dodged).

You could try it yourself and see how it goes but it's not as easy as you think.
 
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Lawz.

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Are you bad with numbers too? Even if Dair gets baited you're taking at most two Bairs which is significantly better than taking multiple Up Airs and a possible Boost Kick.

I'm not suggesting to try using Dair so far off stage that a Bair is going to kill you nor am I suggesting to Dair into the ground lol.

I'm not suggesting to mindlessly do it and at every chance which you seem to think is the suggestion.

I'm certainly not suggesting to use this to kill the ZSS now but you're going into it anyways.

It must be nice to go on and on about possible scenarios that you just started thinking about and haven't experienced. Good theory crafting Lawz.

This is suppose to be a discussion about the MU but you're so far removed from Link and this MU that you really have no idea what you can and can't do. You're not the one playing it in tourney every week and certainly not the one researching into it.

Jump and air dodge are often even worse options than Dair. Say you managed to jump (which would be difficult anyways), ZSS has more than enough speed to hunt you at your next landing spot. The best you can do is pull that bomb and hope it'll save you by intercepting her or blowing you out of getting comboed. If you air dodge well she's still on top of you and she can Up Air faster than you can mash out your second air dodge.

I could go into more detail but you've already implied these are the options you should pick instead of Dair.

I'll refer to Izaw vs SK since you think I'm a Link main pretender like yourself now. SK is clearly a good ZSS. That's solid competition that Izaw found some success using Dair in. It's a shame the stream is now deleted (was on spyroul's Twitch channel) but you should ask Izaw why he even picked that option and how it worked out for him since you obviously won't listen to me.



Yes it's possible to hit Link past Dair if you avoid the sword and clip him to the side but realistically Link would be moving left or right in the air. In the application I'm talking about Link would be basically straight above you so you'll have to get clear to a side before even trying it. He can shift and try to force a whiff from Up Air or commit to a direction and try to have it hit. This makes it hard for ZSS and from personal experience the ZSS here have stopped trying to Up Air past Dair picking Bair since it's so much safer or going for a grab or dash attack upon landing (could be spot dodged).

You could try it yourself and see how it goes but it's not as easy as you think.
Obviously what we're saying is going over your head completely so I'll just say it.

You are going to take damage no matter what, doing dair is no different so the option is useless. I literally don't know any other way to say it.

And let's not forget that dair is too slow of a move on startup to actually stop ZSS from landing uair...

Your personal attacks toward me do nothing for your argument so I'll ask one more time to stop.

Also, you can't spotdodge a punish to your landing if done correctly because there's at least 2 frames of landing lag no matter what. Again, you clearly lack the knowledge to back up your argument.

One last reminder, this is high level play, so if your opponent can't punish dair or Link's landing (one of the worst in the game), then stop arguing because you don't have high level experience.

I can play mediocre ZSS players and nair out of every situation, does this mean nair is a fantastic option? No. Because I'll get punished when playing high level competition.

I actually feel like I'm being trolled right now, there's no way I'm legitimately having a debate about the application of one Link's least practical moves.
 

Nimious

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Obviously what we're saying is going over your head completely so I'll just say it.

You are going to take damage no matter what, doing dair is no different so the option is useless. I literally don't know any other way to say it.

And let's not forget that dair is too slow of a move on startup to actually stop ZSS from landing uair...

Your personal attacks toward me do nothing for your argument so I'll ask one more time to stop.

Also, you can't spotdodge a punish to your landing if done correctly because there's at least 2 frames of landing lag no matter what. Again, you clearly lack the knowledge to back up your argument.

One last reminder, this is high level play, so if your opponent can't punish dair or Link's landing (one of the worst in the game), then stop arguing because you don't have high level experience.

I can play mediocre ZSS players and nair out of every situation, does this mean nair is a fantastic option? No. Because I'll get punished when playing high level competition.

I actually feel like I'm being trolled right now, there's no way I'm legitimately having a debate about the application of one Link's least practical moves.
Obviously what I've been saying is going over your head.

You're going to take more damage with the other options.

I've literally said that multiple times but you've reasoned just because you'll take damage it doesn't matter how much.

Every character has landing lag. So why at the highest level of competition ZSS doesn't simply grab everyone upon landing given the reach of her grab? Because if that at minimum two frames of landing lag you're talking about is that easy to take advantage of shouldn't ZSS grab not only Link but every other character on landing?

What a joke, don't even talk about knowledge or trolling.

You certainly have no experience in tourney with this MU yet here you are talking about high level competition concerning it. You can't even see the value of what a single Dair being used will represent at high level competition because I'm sure you'll argue that ZSS mains are also mind readers so they still won't hesitate to Up Air you even after the Link player shows they'll challenge the Up Air. I'm sure letting the ZSS mindlessly throw Up Airs at you knowing all you'll try is jump and air dodge is the right idea.

As I said ask Izaw then because you won't listen to a word I'm saying because Dair possibly can't have any value lmao.
 

Lawz.

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Obviously what I've been saying is going over your head.

You're going to take more damage with the other options.

I've literally said that multiple times but you've reasoned just because you'll take damage it doesn't matter how much.

Every character has landing lag. So why at the highest level of competition ZSS doesn't simply grab everyone upon landing given the reach of her grab? Because if that at minimum two frames of landing lag you're talking about is that easy to take advantage of shouldn't ZSS grab not only Link but every other character on landing?

What a joke, don't even talk about knowledge or trolling.

You certainly have no experience in tourney with this MU yet here you are talking about high level competition concerning it. You can't even see the value of what a single Dair being used will represent at high level competition because I'm sure you'll argue that ZSS mains are also mind readers so they still won't hesitate to Up Air you even after the Link player shows they'll challenge the Up Air. I'm sure letting the ZSS mindlessly throw Up Airs at you knowing all you'll try is jump and air dodge is the right idea.

As I said ask Izaw then because you won't listen to a word I'm saying because Dair possibly can't have any value lmao.
The reason I mention the two frame landing lag is simply because Link has some of the absolute worst landing options in the game. So its easy for ZSS (with top tier air and ground mobility) to catch his landing with little effort. Hence why this is such a terrible matchup to begin with and explains why Link is such a bad character altogether.

I also have a ZSS in my region who is power ranked (as am I) so I play this matchup as both Link and Sheik. Having a Sheik icon next to my tag has hilariously made you believe I don't use Link, for whatever reason.

You can challenge her uair all you want, but dair is too slow of a move to be used reliably. The startup is terrible, his movement during the duration is bad and the endlag is trash unless you stay in the air long enough for it to end. If it works against your random ZSS at your weekly, great, whatever. It can certainly work as a mixup, but then again, anything can work if someone doesn't expect it. But it'd be insulting to suggest that players like Nairo, Nick Riddle, and Salem would fall for such an abysmal option regularly. Nice try though. Really.

Other than the occasional mixup (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here), its just not the answer in this matchup, sorry. I shouldn't have to actually tell someone that.
 
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