[MU] Toon Link

O1DsLeNdYwHiTe

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#1
Last weekend, I attended one of the largest Smash tournaments ever held in the Dfw area; Aftershock. While I could go on and on about all the Link vs. Diddy matches I unfrotunately had to endure during pools, there's another experience I had there that really stood out.

I played friendlies against a player tagged TM Hylen, who was a tremendously skilled Gay main ( probably the best Gay main I've ever had the honor to face. ). Needless to say, I got destroyed by him. While he gave me some helpful tips and pointed out somethings I was doing wrong, I'd like to hear some of the other talented Links of the boards share their experiences and strategies they utilize stepping into this Mu. What does Link need to do to remain dominate against Gay? What does it all narrow down to?
 

Elessar

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#2
To be honest, I was thinking about creating this thread today since I also struggle a lot vs Gay. There are only 3 chars I struggle tremendously against, and gay is one of them. Personally, I can't deal with his spam. His spam is much more effective than ours for the simple reason that his bombs are faster and his rang has a returning hitbox. Trying to outcamp him is thus pointless. I think that we need to go melee.
 

O1DsLeNdYwHiTe

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#3
Gay's projectile game appears far superior when syngerized with his aerial mobility and speed. I just could not deal with it. It seems these two characters are sort of reversed when compared to each other.

Gay possesses superior projectiles, speed, and camping game when up against Link. However I believe Link has a lot more kill options in neutral, and can be just as effective playing aggro than campy, which gives Gay players something to fear. Link definitely "hits harder" so-to-speak, but yeah, as it was implied, trying to outcamp Gay is NOT a smart idea. I unfortunately learned that the hard-way...
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#4
Toon's spam is effective because of his aerial mobility. [The main differences here are obviously the fact that Toon has a larger DJ, but importantly it's the fact that Toon can change his aerial momentum much quicker.] The spam isn't going to do a whole lot of damage by itself. The damage will come when he starts converting the bombs into Fairs which he needs to have rushed in for in expectation.
I wouldn't discount the effectiveness of Link's Bombs. Being able to negate Toon's grounded Bomb game is kind of a big deal. Soft throw bombs are going to look like a gift to a Toon main the first time you send one out, so make sure it has been cooked because they'll probably try to use it.
The current Toon meta involves a lot more Bomb Fake Out shenanigans than what you'd be used to if your matchup experience has come from Brawl, so if they jump backwards towards you with a Bomb or if they JC throw forwards and it looks like the bomb may just fall short, expect a Fair, or like a re-throw.
Link definitely wins if you can force it into a cqc situation. Abuse the range of your melee attacks. It's just that you'd want to look out for getting stuck in an U-tilt chain early on. The u-tilts don't do much damage (like 4-5%) but you'll be there for a while and it's free percent at the start of your stock that you'd be better of not giving away. On medium to high percents it's not like it becomes redundant either as U-tilt starts comboing into U-air. So just avoid the U-tilt in general.
Don't challenge Toon's U-air with your Dair. You will lose. His Nair on the other hand is kind of a joke compared to Brawl, as now it has less range than his Jab, meaning that he has no quick and long ranged aerials that he can use to take advantage of his Run speed. Due to Link's weight/fall speed, you won't be able to jump before you hit the ground after being Zair'd until high percents (like somewhere over 100%) but it also means that at low percents you can often shield the follow up Nair or spot-dodge the grab.
 
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#5
To be quite honest, I don't have a lot of experience with Gay besides the mediocre ones I find in FG. But I'd imagine playing aggro is the right option here as well.

Since most of his aerials have a quite a bit of landing lag (besides an autocanceled Bair), I'd assume Up B punishes & OoS would have some more use here. I'd expect some of you to be like "why not just Dsmash/Usmash?" Well, it's a bit more usable OoS on reaction when an opponent is still in the air. Especially when it comes to more floaty characters, which in this case is Gay. Also, not only are his aerials laggy on the ground, but they have tons of cool-down in the air as well, giving you plenty of time to react while Gay is still airborn, making this effective even against his shorthop bair. As opposed to Dsmash, while having more kill power, it's more likely to miss in my experience. Up B has a higher position and hits both in front and behind you pretty much at the same time in the case that Gay tries to land behind you while you're in shield.

And while, again, Usmash has more kill power, up B will provide you with being in a better positional advantage if Gay were to survive (if sending him way offstage counts). It's likely for Gay to die at hight % against up b anyways due to his lighter weight. Don't think of this as me saying that up B is a better punish option than Link's smashes though. It sure as hell isn't lol. Just look at all that end lag. I've just had a lot of cases where it came in serious handy, and has won me quite a few games.

I'd also like to add that even Fsmash OoS might work against his laggy aerials. However, Gay would have to approach you if these options were to be practical and are risky if you were to wiff them (in which case, you messed up). Those are their main setbacks.
 
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Lawz.

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#6
To be quite honest, I don't have a lot of experience with Gay besides the mediocre ones I find in FG. But I'd imagine playing aggro is the right option here as well.

Since most of his aerials have a quite a bit of landing lag (besides an autocanceled Bair), I'd assume Up B punishes & OoS would have some more use here. I'd expect some of you to be like "why not just Dsmash/Usmash?" Well, it's a bit more usable OoS on reaction when an opponent is still in the air. Especially when it comes to more floaty characters, which in this case is Gay. Also, not only are his aerials laggy on the ground, but they have tons of cool-down in the air as well, giving you plenty of time to react while Gay is still airborn, making this effective even against his shorthop bair. As opposed to Dsmash, while having more kill power, it's more likely to miss in my experience. Up B has a higher position and hits both in front and behind you pretty much at the same time in the case that Gay tries to land behind you while you're in shield.

And while, again, Usmash has more kill power, up B will provide you with being in a better positional advantage if Gay were to survive (if sending him way offstage counts). It's likely for Gay to die at hight % against up b anyways due to his lighter weight. Don't think of this as me saying that up B is a better punish option than Link's smashes though. It sure as hell isn't lol. Just look at all that end lag. I've just had a lot of cases where it came in serious handy, and has won me quite a few games.

I'd also like to add that even Fsmash OoS might work against his laggy aerials. However, Gay would have to approach you if these options were to be practical and are risky if you were to wiff them (in which case, you messed up). Those are their main setbacks.
You could just utilt OoS, it's faster, juggles, puts people above you (most characters have zero options when above someone) and still kills. Whiffing wouldn't be as risky either. Not to mention the hitbox arcs all the way around him.
 
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#7
You could just utilt OoS, it's faster, juggles, puts people above you (most characters have zero options when above someone) and still kills. Whiffing wouldn't be as risky either. Not to mention the hitbox arcs all the way around him.
Up B would still kill quite a bit earlier I'd imagine (espesially at the edge of a stage), but utilt is a great option as well.
 
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A_Phoenix_Down

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#8
Ah, my silly friend, there is no match-up here....





In a more serious note.

Gay tends to be much better at spamming projectiles and ranged fighting in general due in part to his much greater ground and aerial mobility. However, Link out-tanks and out reaches Gay tremendously to the point that sometimes forces aggressive Gay mains to turn campy. Link does much better in aggressive play now and Gay's one of the best characters to show that to.

If you try going pure range fighting, you'll most likely lose to Gay. The trick is, use Link's superior weight, reach, and power to your advantage because those three elements are what destroys Gay in this match-up.
 

Sabaca

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#9
Lawz said:
You could just utilt OoS, it's faster
Not true. In general utilt is faster than usmash but OoS usmash should be faster because you don't have to drop the shield.
Lawz said:
juggles, puts people above you (most characters have zero options when above someone) and still kills. Whiffing wouldn't be as risky either. Not to mention the hitbox arcs all the way around him.
All of that is kinda true to usmash aswell. Basically usmash does more damage and has more knockback and is less save.(similar speed and hitbox) So you should use it OoS instead of utilt if you are you sure you can land the punish and the percentages are high enough so you can't connect multiple utilts instead(Wich is ~30% for Gay)
Keep in mind that when he is in the air at higher percents the 3 hits of usmash don't connect truly.

EDIT: I just noticed that you talked about UpB vs Utilt OoS and not Usmash vs Utilt OoS for that MU. I'm sorry that I didn't read properly.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#10
Since most of his aerials have a quite a bit of landing lag (besides an autocanceled Bair), I'd assume Up B punishes & OoS would have some more use here. I'd expect some of you to be like "why not just Dsmash/Usmash?" Well, it's a bit more usable OoS on reaction when an opponent is still in the air. Especially when it comes to more floaty characters, which in this case is Gay. Also, not only are his aerials laggy on the ground, but they have tons of cool-down in the air as well, giving you plenty of time to react while Gay is still airborn, making this effective even against his shorthop bair. As opposed to Dsmash, while having more kill power, it's more likely to miss in my experience. Up B has a higher position and hits both in front and behind you pretty much at the same time in the case that Gay tries to land behind you while you're in shield.

And while, again, Usmash has more kill power, up B will provide you with being in a better positional advantage if Gay were to survive (if sending him way offstage counts). It's likely for Gay to die at hight % against up b anyways due to his lighter weight. Don't think of this as me saying that up B is a better punish option than Link's smashes though. It sure as hell isn't lol. Just look at all that end lag. I've just had a lot of cases where it came in serious handy, and has won me quite a few games.

I'd also like to add that even Fsmash OoS might work against his laggy aerials. However, Gay would have to approach you if these options were to be practical and are risky if you were to wiff them (in which case, you messed up). Those are their main setbacks.
Smash 4 Toon's Bair and Nair have a quick start up but they are quite laggy. E.g. while you can SH aerial and land laglessly, you are in fact forced to land, meaning that they are good for putting out a quick hitbox, but a smart player will then immediately retreat as there is nothing that they can do until they land. Fair on the other hand is the complete opposite. It takes a while to come out in comparison, but it has very little cool-down lag along with great shield knockback and stun. Out of a SH Toon will enter landing lag if he uses Fair but he can avoid this entirely by doing a DJ before he lands. If Toon retreats his SH rising Nair/Bair, they are safe on shield (unless you throw a bomb OoS), but if you powershield them, you can dash in and punish even without a bomb. A SH Fair is punishable, though it can be difficult; retreating SH Fair is practically impossible to punish. FH aerials are something else entirely though.
 
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Kero the Invincible

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#16
Sounds like you need to read our rules thread. (-second post)
Alternatively there's always the smash dictionary.
My apologies. The Shaqpocalypse posts had me confused, I was thinking maybe someone had done something with the word-filter.

Also, I wasn't aware the smash dictionary was even a thing. Thank you for pointing me to it.
 

Himura Kenshin

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#17
Gay has superior projectiles than Link, so I tend to evade a 'rang or arrow while pulling out a bomb, then evade and counter with a bomb throw followed by a grab, roll-chase, or a 'rang of my own. I usually focus on evading the projectiles and fairs (cause they WILL be coming), and punishing. For me, it's dodge first, then counter. With some successful counters, they'll start to question their gameplan and try for something else, like CQC, which Link is superior with. After that, they'll start to get agitated and do something crazy, like dair. Soon, they're at kill percentage, then it's just a jab-to-upsmash/downsmash, and boom, Gay is a thing in the past. I've only fought For Glory Gays, but once you figure out their tricks and patterns, their show is over.
 

Batu

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#18
*use a bottle with a fairy inside* I have to revive this thread cuz i have a MM next week with the best gay main here in RD... So now that jab1 is not a thing and link cqc is not the same, what options link have against gay? Thanks in advance!

Edit: I still think link wins in cqc, but i need some experienced links to discuss this MU further more.
 
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Himura Kenshin

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#19
Hmm, yep, with Link's nerfed close options and Gay's superior projectile game, this will be veeeery difficult, especially if he's one of the best out there. The best advice I got for you is to use bombs very often, like, spam that ****. Once you get in close, expect a grab attempt, do you best to counter it and don't let up the pressure.
 
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#20
I feel that at head to head taking in all accounts, Toon Link has the overall advantage. Both characters try to use their projectiles in order to create set-ups and openings in a similar manner but I feel that TL has a better time doing so partly due to his better mobility. TL also has an almost guaranteed follow-up with Fair when he hits you with a bomb and can actually kill. He has a grab that can kill much earlier than Link's as well.

Now in cqc, Link definitely seems to have the advantage of range but TL also has great Utilt strings (especially against Link's weight) and faster end lag on his attacks (but weaker obviously). TL can also short hop Fair and get out of there safely if hit on shield. If the Link player can space properly, he wins the cqc in my opinion.

So in the overall match up, I'd say 45-55 in TL's favor.
 

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#21
Well, I´ve found that trading with him is useful as Gay dies earlier than us, he is a better spammer, though, so getting in is the real problem. At CQC I Like to bait him, like stopping my U-Tilt string to bait him into a mistake (D-air on low skill players and catch the landing hard if they second jump). Another bait is our grab, I think ours has more range, so baiting it is kinda good for us because if spaced correctly we gat a free grab to lead into a string or kill, just make sure not to be too greedy and whif our own grab.
 
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#22
I figured I'd drop my experience into this, sorry if I restate things already said by other people. So what I've noticed is our bombs can go through gay's projectiles which is important because that allows us to be the aggressor. Since other people have covered the optimal ways to get kills I'm gonna gloss over that and conclude with, power shields. Power shields efficiently stop any kind of Offensive that Gay could mount and limits his kill options, which is amazing for us because since his kill options are now very small you can just read his attack and punish (probably with an Up B or Up Smash Oos) also finally, the best example of the MU you can find is Sornoie vs Ax3. Maybe take notes of what she did right and wrong.
 

Stryker95

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#23
From VuraLoL VuraLoL :

In general i think that we as Link can punish tink heavily for a bombthrow and bad landings. A bombslide fair does wonders in this MU if u time it well, we get A LOT of punishing that baby blue bomb. What we all need tho is patience, because u got hard impatient game 2 when it mattered to be patient. I know that myself just look at my set against this tink main. I did everything wrong i know in this MU which was stupid af but my b. I now know it better and will pretty much stick to my gameplan listed above. I think the MU is a SAFE EVEN MU or even slightly for us due to our superior dmg output, offstage game, range and that we beat his camp game/ go even with it. Tink has his "reliability" which makes just dangerous, because his confirms are free af.
 

VuraLoL

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#24
Just so Strykers comment makes sense:

the video reference:
U got impatient so mny times in game 1 because u tried to play a rather more approach heavy game, which backfired pretty hard. firstly, it's not the recommended gameplan against Tonn Link because his walling game is centered around beating bad-mediocre approach games.

U got hit many times just because u didn't shield enough the projectiles. You misjudged most opportunities when to drop shield and play your game which resultet in free%, most of em being stray hits such as simple bomb, rang and arrow. They don't hurt but add in % . Your edgeguard attempts were also off a few times, just doing read stuff offstage which is either hit or miss

When Ledgetrapping u denied his options very well, such as timing bombs with the ending frames of Zans invincibility and such, but didn't capitalise on his habits/ option takin (?, lol)(bearbeitet)

He jumped pretty much 90% of the time off the ledge which is punished by any move of Link, I'd recommend up air or nair to do so.

I really liked your playstyle in the second match tho. Yoou still played really approachy but this time you were patient when it mattered and punished Tinks lackluster frames well. You got your grabs that punished landing and got offstage dmg and even a kill. Offstage especially against tink is actually pretty easy. He either tethers or up-bs. As we all know tether is 1 nice recoverytool but can be punished and gimped hard, hitting a soft nair while a tink tethers resuls in a free up-B ( or hard punish). Just a tipp to utilise our superior offstage game. Ledge options weren't covered this time too though. What I didn't like is that u didn't punish tinks bombthrow. Our bomb outprioritizes tinks bombs and result mostly in a fair / upair confirm. Our dmg output per combo is already pretty high and it outdmgs tinks by a large margin so it was kinda sad that u didn't get our damaging combos off bombs, that were free imo. But u still got your punishes down and found em your way, punishing landings wit huptilt and grab and such. You lost, because u chose the most retarde get up option Link has. Zan knows that tether recovering characters tend to have a habit of jumping 70% of the time and just gambledd on it. I think he did a fair to cover regular getup and jump which is pretty the only options u chose that match.(bearbeitet)


In general i think that we as Link can punish tink heavily for a bombthrow and bad landings. A bombslide fair does wonders in this MU if u time it well, we get A LOT of punishing that baby blue bomb. What we all need tho is patience, because u got hard impatient game 2 when it mattered to be patient. I know that myself just look at my set against this tink main. I did everything wrong i know in this MU which was stupid af but my b. I now know it better and will pretty much stick to my gameplan listed above. I think the MU is a SAFE EVEN MU or even slightly for us due to our superior dmg output, offstage game, range and that we beat his camp game/ go even with it. Tink has his "reliability" which makes just dangerous, because his confirms are free af. I still enjoyed your play. Just think about that useful dump of info. Have fun and good luck


My tink match as a reference. You can see where my dump of info comes from. It was too close for comfort but i did some stuff that u didn't imo.(bearbeitet)



https://youtu.be/1rTuDpH1fA0?t=4m27s
 
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