[MU] Link General Matchup Discussion

[zeldasmash]

This thread is used to discuss and classify Link's matchups and also a thread to discuss Link's overall viability.

Smash 4 is a game that relies more on the character matchups to be able to determine a tier list than on tournament results. I am not saying they do not matter, because they do, but character matchups is more of a focus here. Link is a character that has had a rough history with Smash Bros. Smash 4 changes that, but it hasn't been kind to patches (1.0.6).

However, that doesn't mean Link is a bad character, because he isn't. We don't even know where he will end up in the tier list at this point. Hopefully, this thread can help in letting us find an approximation on where he might end up with discussing his matchups.

• Link's Positive Matchups

• Link's Even Matchups

• Link's Negative Matchups

Below is a that takes you to an index thread where it basically has all the individual matchup threads listed. If your character doesn't have a thread listed there, you can create your own [MU] thread about that character and have it discussed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/book-of-mu-dora-index.374493/

 

[LightLelouch89]

Am having the most trouble with high level sonic players. The speed gap is just too much and it'll be a cold day in hell before I sell out and start using toon link!

 

[CostLow]

This comes from the sonic matchup discussion. It is toon link, but I think many of the principles are still the same for us. Look at it this way... this is the same tactic they use against Link, so we just need to be prepared for this. My thoughts are in the colored text.

Somebody wanted advice for Toon Link.

If you're reading this, good sir/madam: learn to approach from an angle. If you're gonna make a direct run for him, you're gonna wanna learn to powershield through boomerangs/arrows/bombs/melee attacks/etc. Otherwise, there's an optimal angle you can approach him from where he can't easily cover as well as he can directly above and in front of him. Sonic can go about this with ASC and using Spin Dash in the air to switch up your movement quickly and ever so slightly. [This tells us that they don't plan on going at you straight on (arrows taken out of matchup) so be prepared to aim your attacks either toward the ground or the sky.]

It's a bit different now that Sonic can't ASCSC anymore; but, one thing that still holds true from Brawl is that getting Toon Link in the air would be ideal here. Being below him is especially nice here since he only has Down Air (and if applicable, Bomb at hand) to cover his underside. You, being the fastest thing alive; can cover whatever ground he tries to land on, and your aerials are nothing to sneeze at either. [Well, you should already know to grab a bomb, so let them work around the bomb. You need to get back on the ground safely and quickly. Fair can cover both SIDES of Link while Zair can insure your protected below and up to medium range in front. Just be prepared for Sonic to be looking for a way in. We know he can get anywhere on stage faster than anyone else...]

Keep juggling him, give him no breathing room to set-up his projectile game. It's a weird mix of being aggressive but being intelligent about how you do it. He has better range than you do, you won't be able to overpower a Toon Link that knows what he's doing; however, any player is susceptible to being baited. Force him to commit to a particular action, work around it, and get some chip damage in. [Be smart about things like jabs. If you know that you won't get all three hits in, then back away. Get the damage you can before he does. He's quick so don't give him more openings by trying to smash every chance you get.]

To juggle you, he'll likely up smash, but just use your bombs or dodge it. Every moment you lag from an attack Sonic gets a chance to step closer. Make sure you pull weapons in the most opportune times that you can. Don't just keep trying to toss crap at him. lol

 

[DarkDeity15]

Am having the most trouble with high level sonic players. The speed gap is just too much and it'll be a cold day in hell before I sell out and start using toon link!

The speed gap really isn't a problem. Link is much faster than he was in any previous iteration. As far as I can tell, Link can space out Sonic pretty well. Zair should cover plenty of his approaches in the air, and make use of Link's quick aerials to rack up damage and gimp (Sonic's offstage game is pretty meh besides that Bair or if he's the one getting you offstage). Spindash isn't too scary either. Just powersheild or challenge it with another Zair since it eats though any hitbox. If he's at high percent, go for a Utilt. That should kill pretty easily and it's not nearly as punishable as an up/side smash.

And make a habit of using that amazing Dsmash. The horizontal knockback on the second hit of his Dsmash can send anyone far offstage. It can also catch rolls and kills easily. Characters with poor recovery aren't coming back. First hit of Dsmash has great kill power as well. The move as a whole is pretty godly.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Sonic isn't that hard. Shield disables most of his nonsense.

 

[Eten]

I like to use 5 catagories to talk about character matchups.
1. Safe moves
2. Risk moves
3. Mistake punishment
4. Followups
5. Recovery

Safe moves are moves that are virtually unpunishable when used, evaded or not, such as Link's Zair. Risk moves are moves that are punishable when evaded, such as Link's dash attack. Mistake punishment are the options a character has to punish someone's risk move when that move was evaded. Followups are the character's ability to continue after one hit with a combo, tech chase, edgeguard, or KO move. Recovery is a character's ability to directly contest another character's followups. In an ideal situation, a character would use their safe moves until the opponent gets hit or uses a risk move, at which point the character punishes their risk move mistake or follows up, and the opponent attempts to recover.

These 5 things change for both characters in each matchup. For example, Link versus Donkey Kong, at longer range all of Link's projectiles can be considered safe moves, but in Link versus Palutena those projectiles can be reflected and some of those projectile moves can now be considered risk moves. Discussing matchups would be discussing what moves are or are not safe, the best method of punishing opponents mistakes, the followup options you have on the opponent, and your characters method's of recovering from the opponent's followups. Discussion of "tiers" or "good"/"bad" matchups should be reserved for when it is recognized for the extreme scenarios of helplessness where there is no available safe move against their limitless use of a safe move that leads into a followup which the character has no recovery from, until that character is routinely KOed.

 

[CostLow]

I like to use 5 catagories to talk about character matchups.
1. Safe moves
2. Risk moves
3. Mistake punishment
4. Followups
5. Recovery

Safe moves are moves that are virtually unpunishable when used, evaded or not, such as Link's Zair. Risk moves are moves that are punishable when evaded, such as Link's dash attack. Mistake punishment are the options a character has to punish someone's risk move when that move was evaded. Followups are the character's ability to continue after one hit with a combo, tech chase, edgeguard, or KO move. Recovery is a character's ability to directly contest another character's followups. In an ideal situation, a character would use their safe moves until the opponent gets hit or uses a risk move, at which point the character punishes their risk move mistake or follows up, and the opponent attempts to recover.

These 5 things change for both characters in each matchup. For example, Link versus Donkey Kong, at longer range all of Link's projectiles can be considered safe moves, but in Link versus Palutena those projectiles can be reflected and some of those projectile moves can now be considered risk moves. Discussing matchups would be discussing what moves are or are not safe, the best method of punishing opponents mistakes, the followup options you have on the opponent, and your characters method's of recovering from the opponent's followups. Discussion of "tiers" or "good"/"bad" matchups should be reserved for when it is recognized for the extreme scenarios of helplessness where there is no available safe move against their limitless use of a safe move that leads into a followup which the character has no recovery from, until that character is routinely KOed.

Nice little format you have there. Do you have any good matchup experience to put into the format you shared?

 

[koloblican11763]

Am having the most trouble with high level sonic players.

Unfortunately, the only truly effective way I have seen to beat a decent Sonic is to shield camp and wait for wiffs. Be super aggressive will get you hit all the time. A good Sonic will use angles to get around boomerang and arrows and the animation for throwing your bomb is long enough to get you punished.

Generally I just stand their and wait for them to charge stuff, then once they do I throw a rang and get some percent and repeat. They generally start doing different things to get in like dash attacks and dacus, but you just wait and shieldgrab, pray for bad DI and punish.

 

[LightLelouch89]

Thanks guys. Thanks to the tips in this thread, I haven't had a challenging Sonic encounter since. It's amazing how one-dimensional Sonic's strategy is when you know what you're doing against him.

 

[koloblican11763]

Thanks guys. Thanks to the tips in this thread, I haven't had a challenging Sonic encounter since. It's amazing how one-dimensional Sonic's strategy is when you know what you're doing against him.

That's really awesome to hear! I am glad we helped.

 

[MrFrigid]

I like to use 5 catagories to talk about character matchups.
1. Safe moves
2. Risk moves
3. Mistake punishment
4. Followups
5. Recovery

Safe moves are moves that are virtually unpunishable when used, evaded or not, such as Link's Zair. Risk moves are moves that are punishable when evaded, such as Link's dash attack. Mistake punishment are the options a character has to punish someone's risk move when that move was evaded. Followups are the character's ability to continue after one hit with a combo, tech chase, edgeguard, or KO move. Recovery is a character's ability to directly contest another character's followups. In an ideal situation, a character would use their safe moves until the opponent gets hit or uses a risk move, at which point the character punishes their risk move mistake or follows up, and the opponent attempts to recover.

These 5 things change for both characters in each matchup. For example, Link versus Donkey Kong, at longer range all of Link's projectiles can be considered safe moves, but in Link versus Palutena those projectiles can be reflected and some of those projectile moves can now be considered risk moves. Discussing matchups would be discussing what moves are or are not safe, the best method of punishing opponents mistakes, the followup options you have on the opponent, and your characters method's of recovering from the opponent's followups. Discussion of "tiers" or "good"/"bad" matchups should be reserved for when it is recognized for the extreme scenarios of helplessness where there is no available safe move against their limitless use of a safe move that leads into a followup which the character has no recovery from, until that character is routinely KOed.

A+++ FORMAT.

You just took matchups and turned them into math. A+ for you

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Nooooo we have to use...math.

 

[MrFrigid]

Math makes life so much more simple... (although it may seem the other way around) It's a means of communication.

 

[_Relapse_]

Any help with Ness MU? Constant PK Fire spam,his aerial is good and his back throw is deadly.

 

[UTSmash]

Is link better in this one vs. sonic or within Brawl

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Sonic looks much better in this game but i still feel like the only thing that really sells sonic to me is his mobility.

Ness seems to be a tough one because he can spam pk fire when you're on the ground. But then you can't jump either since Ness players want you to jump into their pk flash. I'd probably just throw bombs at him to close the gap and then wail on him.

Then again I've really only watched these matchups on stream.

 

[MrFrigid]

Sonic looks much better in this game but i still feel like the only thing that really sells sonic to me is his mobility.

Ness seems to be a tough one because he can spam pk fire when you're on the ground. But then you can't jump either since Ness players want you to jump into their pk flash. I'd probably just throw bombs at him to close the gap and then wail on him.

Then again I've really only watched these matchups on stream.

You have to be really bad at smash to jump into a PK flash.
& I think Ness can heal bombs. TBH, arrow/gale/ sh nairs are good tools against him.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

You have to be really bad at smash to jump into a PK flash.
& I think Ness can heal bombs. TBH, arrow/gale/ sh nairs are good tools against him.

And I witnessed it happening to a poor Link main...

 

[MrFrigid]

And I witnessed it happening to a poor Link main...

Ouch, that's extremely upsetting

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Forgot this thread existed. Oh well, I'll just copy/paste this from the MU Index:

Anyway, I haven't heard much from the Jiggs MU. From my viewpoint, I think it's 60/40 in Link's favor. I've won against many Jiggs in For Glory, but I've lost to a couple, mainly due to getting a bit too reckless on the last stock. If you camp Jiggs hard, there's nothing she can do against your projectiles. She's vulnerable in the air, so if you bait an air dodge or an aerial, you can punish it. Also, whiffed Rest=Automatic KO. She's extremely light, so take advantage of that. As long as u play the MU safely, Jigglypuff isn't much of a hassle at all.

 

[MugenLord]

I'm having trouble fighting good Yoshi players, his Running Dash attack feels safe to me along with his Neutral A in the air. He recovers so fast when I try to go for a punish. I tried using my range attacks then I have to deal with his annoying Egg toss which I have to avoid.

 

[Shonoun]

I NEED HELP AGAINST PALUTENAS. The only time I've actually beaten a Palutena is playing against my brother, and the time we played he hasn't played for a little bit. She has the moveset I hate: Projectiles, (even though they suck, still annoying) Reflect, Counter, large windboxes, etc. I can't find any way to counter her, nothing is punishable!

 

[Demacrez]

I don't know about the Falco matchup but for some reason I was having trouble playing against a particular Falco player. For whatever reason, I just couldn't KO the sucker and went on being completely out-beaten by his aerials and (regrettably) fell for his off the ledge laser hops. I don't know if the fight is in Falco's favor or I was simply out played (I switched to my Shiek and completely dominated him before he left, ass).

If there's any way to get pass these issues, can you please let me know? Thanks in advance!

 

[Genix]

So, i still have problems wih the Sonic MU. I feel like Spin Dash is unpunishable and i don't know how to get the kill set-up.

 

[Darches]

In my experience, the big nightmare is Fox. That MU is just unfair, because Hylian Shield is apparently made of cardboard! He can also punish everything.

Villager is also annoying. If he pockets your stuff, you're in trouble.

Sonic is annoying but he can't camp with better projectiles than you. I don't know how to punish homing attack though; he bounces too far off my shield for a punish.

 

[Elessar]

Villager is also annoying. If he pockets your stuff, you're in trouble.

That's not really true, since even if he pockets we can just bring out another of everything. We can constantly produce bombs, boomerangs and arrows, so his pocket ability has no effect on us.

 

[Rizen]

@ anyone, what is each MU's ratio in your opinion?

 

[DarkDeity15]

In my experience, the big nightmare is Fox. That MU is just unfair, because Hylian Shield is apparently made of cardboard! He can also punish everything.

Villager is also annoying. If he pockets your stuff, you're in trouble.

Sonic is annoying but he can't camp with better projectiles than you. I don't know how to punish homing attack though; he bounces too far off my shield for a punish.

Then don't shield. Retaliate some other way.

 

[Drigo Toes]

In my point of view, I can categorize opponent in Good, Even and Bad match up... even when some match up could be seen as more than good or bad, i will just omite these, because we need a more in depth research for that (Disclaimer: This is my point of view, so feel free to disagree without a "You are fu*** insane". The * are the "It could be a tier down"):

Bad: Fox, C. Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina, Mii fighter, Mario, Luigi, Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, Sheik, Greninja*, Ness.
Even: Robin, Palutena, Jiggly, Kirby, Marth, Lucina, Lucario, Meta, Rob, Pit, Dark Pit, Falco, Ike, ZSS, Samus.
Good: Tulin, Villager, Dr. Mario, Dk, DDD, Zelda, Charizard, Mewtwo, Ganon, Bowser, Olimar, Lt. Mac.

The character didn't list are the ones i don't have enough information/remember right now.

 

[Lucasmaster90]

ness is not bad for link, cpt falcon i dont notice problens, mario either, mii fighter too

 

[Genix]

Those are my impressions of Link's bad MUs so far:

35/65


40/60


I feel like Luigi is okay, bombs win you the neutral game, Jab and pivot Ftilt are good spacing options to avoid the grab.
You can also gimp him rather easily.
Sonic is okay too, planting bombs helps against spin dash and he struggles against zoning in general.
Rosalina is actually in Link's favor imo, Zair is amazing against her and smart zoning/baiting can get you around gravitational pull.
You can also abuse her recovery since it has no invincibility/hitbox.

 

[Lucasmaster90]

what make mario bad to link?

 

[Rizen]

what make mario bad to link?

IMO Mario wrecks Link hard when he gets close. Mario has tools like cape and fireballs to mix up approaches and prevent Link from only playing keep away. Mario's speed and movement are hard for Link to deal with too.

 

[Lawz.]

The reason why Mario wins? Insane juggle combos, better movement, better aerials, gimps Link easily with bair, cape, Nair and FLUDD.

I feel like this would be obvious...

And oh my god Rosalina vs Link is not in Link's favor. Other than zair being easier to hit, there is nothing that justifies an opinion such as this. Her uthrow > utilt > uair on Link is devastating and she can shut down poor Zoners with terrible mobility (such as Link). And stage control with Luma on a character with no landing options? No, just no. Link does not win against Rosalina.

And Luigi gets 40-50% off a dthrow combo on Link with a decent read and gets almost guaranteed KO options from said dthrow.

All Falcon has to do is run at you and shield. Everything else is pretty obvious. He's just faster and combos Link without even trying.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Bad: Fox, C. Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina, Mii fighter, Mario, Luigi, Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, Sheik, Greninja*, Ness.
Even: Robin, Palutena, Jiggly, Kirby, Marth, Lucina, Lucario, Meta, Rob, Pit, Dark Pit, Falco, Ike, ZSS, Samus.
Good: Tulin, Villager, Dr. Mario, Dk, DDD, Zelda, Charizard, Mewtwo, Ganon, Bowser, Olimar, Lt. Mac.

I'm curious: why isn't Ike lumped in with the other heavies?
And, any of those MUs change when customs is on? Besides Palutena?

 

[Lawz.]

Bad: Fox, C. Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina, Mii fighter, Mario, Luigi, Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, Sheik, Greninja*, Ness.
Even: Robin, Palutena, Jiggly, Kirby, Marth, Lucina, Lucario, Meta, Rob, Pit, Dark Pit, Falco, Ike, ZSS, Samus.
Good: Tulin, Villager, Dr. Mario, Dk, DDD, Zelda, Charizard, Mewtwo, Ganon, Bowser, Olimar, Lt. Mac.

I disagree that Link goes even with ROB, ZSS and Kirby. ROB has a better camp game and is superior offstage by a long shot.

Kirby is able to weave around projectiles very easily and can make many of Link's moves whiff by crouching. His aerials are really safe and his offstage game is also very good for gimping Link. If you get hit by dair, you'll just be dragged to the blast zone.

ZSS can run circles around Link and juggles him with her hoo hah pretty easily. She just has really safe frame data in general, and that goes a long way when fighting a slow character like Link.

I also believe Bowser beats Link as well. Despite not having a sword, Bowser has just as much range as Link, if not better. His uthrow can actually lead to follow ups and he racks up damage SO easily (his fresh side b does 18% I believe). And we all know Bowser has no problem killing. If he has any sort of rage racked up, fthrow has ridiculous KO power.

When edgeguarding, Bowser's dtilt (from my experience) is pretty good at hitting opponents before they snap the ledge, thus sending the opponent in an awkward trajectory.

I also think DK beats Link, you can look at the DK matchup thread if you'd like to read why.

But I'd say other than that, I can understand your reasonings for your character placements. Although I'd also say maybe Pit/Dark Pit have an advantage against Link as well.

 

[zeldasmash]

As for some bad matchups
- This is Link's worst matchup by far (he usually always is). Link almost can't do anything without getting punished. His camping is completely nullified by Reflector, and even if it wasn't for that, his speed will more then make up for it. With Blaster, and the fact that Link can't camp Fox at all, Link is forced to approach, which immediately puts him at a disadvantage. The only saving grace is if Link can get Fox in an edge-guarding position, but that's a mighty big if.

- Pretty bad. He combos Link like it's child's play, is ridiculously fast, his grab game screws Link up close and can edge-guard him very easily. However, he doesn't have a reflector like Fox, so Link can camp him to an extent. Bomb's annoy him, Zair can be a hinderance to his approach and Link can edge-guard Falcon just as easily as he can to Link.

- Pretty obvious why she is a pain. Almost as bad as Fox, but she doesn't have a reflector so there is that i guess. Everything that is bad about Fox is present here, sans reflector, but she has an easier time edge-guarding Link while he has a hard time edge-guarding her. He does out-range her by the lot and his projectiles do force Sheik to approach.

- Bleh. Her Down Special completely invalidates camping, her Up Air and Down Air beat ours, she edge-guards us easy and Luma soaks up hits while also invalidating projectiles. However, Bombs can mess her up as she does grab the bomb while doing Down B, and can give Link an opportunity to throw another bomb. We out-range her (though Luma) and can kill her pretty easily. But trying to approach Rosalina or trying to make her come to Link is a big pain.

As for some even matchups

- He is actually not difficult. Link out-ranges Lucario hard, Lucario is forced to approach due to projectiles and we can kill him easy with Spin Attack at decent percentages. However, if Lucario reaches high percentages, a single hit can spell Link's doom. Fortunately, a single hit from us can spell his doom too.

- We out-range him hard, we KO earlier than him, Bombs and boomerang are extremely annoying for him and most of what he can do can be shielded. When he gets a grab though, it is hell for Link. D-Throw can lead into chains that deal decent damage, and when we are off-stage against Meta Knight, we are pretty much screwed. However he does have a hard time killing, which we don't plus the fact that he is lightweight, he won't be living for that long.

As for some positive matchups

- I think we have the advantage here. Link is actually faster than Robin when it comes to mobility (on the ground at least). Link's Bombs are a big annoyance for him as we can pretty much make him stop charing Thoron and force him to shield and i think the arrows go straight through Arcfire. We also out-range Robin and the fact that Thoron doesn't do anything due to Link's shield, Robin is forced to approach Link, and considering his mobility, he's gonna have a hard time. We also edge-guard Robin well and i think we get more off a grab then Robin does.

/ - Projectiles screw them up big time, Zair can disrupt their approaches and can edge-guard their recoveries very easily. Marth might spell a bit of an issue due to the tipper mechanic, but Lucina has no such thing. Plus they are very punishable and they have nothing that is safe on block. When we are being edge-guarded against them, we are basically dead, but so are they when we edge-guard them.

- Reflect can be annoying, but we have so many projectiles that she's going to have to approach at some point. We beat her up close, we out-range her and almost everything she has is punishable.

- While Dr. Mario has Cape, he is slower then Mario and due to that his pressure is no where near as good as Mario. Dr. Mario is basically dead once we get him off-screen and basically has nothing that can contest our range.

This is all IMO.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Links out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Link. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Link match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/406326/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Rizen]

To all Links out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Link. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Link match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/406326/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

It's a weird time to discuss the MU because the patch came out yesterday and I doubt anyone has played the post-patch MU yet.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's a weird time to discuss the MU because the patch came out yesterday and I doubt anyone has played the post-patch MU yet.

Unlike with round 1, the new thread will be open every day, so even if you don't have anything to contribute right now, don't feel that you're under any time limit, because you won't be.