MU Discussion: Greninja

[Delta-cod]

Due to recent popularity, I think it's time we made a thread for this guy! Discuss the Greninja MU here.

Please stress MU tactics and approaches, the ratio is much less important than helping discover ways to effectively combat this character.

From the social thread discussion:

Greninja is a rare MU. I know it but its really weird to explain. His frame data is not the best but its really not his frame data that makes him so good. Good greninjas can do 60% true combos just from a nair. Theres really no way out of any of his combos besides DI but that really dosn't faze greninjas.

You can tech greninjas up air spike so thats a goood thing to learn in the MU since he can kinda kill you from a combo at 60% unless you learn to tech his up air.

Learn the shadow sneak timing. That will help ALOT. Challange it all you want unless at kill percents. Make sure they can't go behind you though. Nair normally stops his shadow sneak. Dash attack always works to but a good greninja knows how to sneak in a shadow sneak without you realizing. They can jump, double jump or even taunt while charging shadow sneak and cancel the jump or taunt so don't be tricked. Don't let them fool you with walking to. Just because there walking away doesn't mean there charging up shadow sneak... I learned the hard way lol.

A good greninja doesn't charge neutral B all the way. Don't expect them to charge it all the way because most of the time they just use the shorter version. Its kinda like luigis fireball but with a bit more knockback and it allows followups.

I wouldn't play patiently against greninja anyways. Its good to actually punish his jumpings with eggs, nair and fair.

For counter picks. Don't take him to stages like duck hunt, wii fit omega, punch out omega.

How did I do @ Degerix

Good Greninja's barely use shadow sneak and just use their great combo game for 30+% or even a kill.
The diversity in Greninja's kit allows him to have a plethora of kill moves from 2 or 4 different moves if he reads the opponent correctly.
Like say Nair at around 80ish %, he can prolly chase afterwards to hit with fair Shadowsneak or even ty and guess that they DI'd down and he just does a running Usmash.

Yep @ YoHeKing ! Here are my insights on the rare Greninja vs. Yoshi matchup (as a Greninja main):

Two big parts of Greninja's battle strategy is to dodge attacks with his short hop so he can punish with a Short Hop Fast-Fall NAir to get in a sweet combo and using his Water Shuriken to keep the opponent guessing and baited.

I'm not sure if Greninja's FAir or Yoshi's FAir has the longer reach. A well-spaced FAir is a good approach option for Greninja due to shield pressure, range, and possibly pushback.

Yoshi's counters against a Greninja (based on my experiences from fighting YoHeKing) are:
-Yoshi's NAir may be able to cancel out an unsuspected Shadow Sneak since it takes a while for Greninja to actually attack.
-Since short hops are SO good for Greninja, people that main him jump a lot with him. If Yoshi can figure out the movement patterns of Greninja, he'll have an upper hand since he can... sayy.. for example, anticipate a jump and punish with an Up Smash. I've lost plenty of matches against YoHeKing since he anticipated a jump from me.
-PRETTY IMPORTANT ONE: Try your best to avoid getting hit by Greninja's Nair! It's among Greninja's best combo starters. Also, I'm pretty sure you Yoshi players are familiar with Greninja's insane combo potential with footstools and jab locks. Yoshi is amongst the characters those combos are easiest to execute on.
-Greninja's Hydro Pump can be troublesome for Yoshi if used correctly. May not be as effective on Yoshi as it is on most characters, but Greninja can still use Hydro Pump as a way to reposition or disrupt Yoshi's recovery into a bad spot for dangerous attacks such as a FAir or Up Smash.

Greninja is one of those characters that is weird and unique in the roster so you have to fight him differently from how you fight a character like Mario, Luigi, and Captain Falcon.
That's all I've got!

Yup. Good greninjas use shadow sneak when you least espect it. Degerix is probably the only few greninjas I know that doesn't abuse it but its kinda funny how the start up is just enough to react to (well for me).

Also greninja has ALOT of kill set ups and combo starters. Down air, counter(yes it does have a kill set up and combo starter) nair, fair, up air, footstool, grab, down tilt, up tilt, charged neutral B, up throw and forward throw are all combo setups and/or kill set ups.

Nair is a serious problem in the MU though. Theres like no way Yoshi can punish well used nairs unless he gets a read before it comes out. It has really low lag and can combo Yoshi hard at low percents. Since Yoshi can't break most of greninjas combos hes like CF when it comes to combos.

Also greninja has pretty good tools against Yoshi when they hit his sheild. He actually has a good enough dash grab to punish fair and nair landings mostly because of the range in most cases.

You really can't play patiently in the MU though. Greninja actually can camp Yoshi from what I hear and see.

I forgot to mention Greninjas kill set ups work diffrently on Yoshi. Nair actually doesn't combo into a up smash at high percents or kill percents. Really only works around low percents with correct DI.

For a very odd reason Greninja can't kill set up a Yoshi like many other characters he fights. Possibly because heavy+floaty and fast. Just be aware that he can get massive damage on you pretty quick.

Okay I'm done with what I had to take care of so I can put down some more points.

Shadow Sneak cuts down Greninja's ground and air mobility. If you have good reactions and learn how he moves, you can prevent a sneak attack from being successful on most Greninja's. As for trickier ones, it's pretty much a matter of guessing.

I'm PRETTY sure Yoshi can punish Greninja's NAir with his jab after he blocks it. May not be much damage but everything counts in a fight. Greninja's NAir and FAir have plenty of start up so there's plenty of time to react accordingly. Greninja's NAir may have low end lag (if it's grounded) but it has low priority and doesn't work like Mario, Yoshi, Link, and Fox's NAir.

Greninja's grab has deceptive properties. It can catch opponents as they're jumping and at weird distances. However, it's slower than most grabs. I'm pretty sure Yoshi can work around that.

 

[Degerix]

Due to recent popularity, I think it's time we made a thread for this guy! Discuss the Greninja MU here.

Please stress MU tactics and approaches, the ratio is much less important than helping discover ways to effectively combat this character.

From the social thread discussion:

LOL
Thanks!

 

[YoHeKing]

Yeah. Degerix is a reliable source. His first touney was at texas' biggest tourney and he placed 17th. Pretty impressive for actually having to adapt to a controller he never used in his life and still doing well.

 

[Degerix]

Any information on Greninja you guys need I may be able to help. I'm not as technical as top players but I may be able to assist.

 

[YoHeKing]

Any information on Greninja you guys need I may be able to help. i'm not as technical as top players but I may be able to assist.

Pfft says the one who techs almost frame perfect techs.

What do you think about yoshi from above. Seems pretty dangerous for yoshi to be up high above greninja.

 

[Degerix]

Pfft says the one who techs almost frame perfect techs.

What do you think about yoshi from above. Seems pretty dangerous for yoshi to be up high above greninja.

As I said, Hydro Pump is gonna be troublesome for Yoshi since Greninja can put him in a bad spot for a killing blow. Yoshi's best bet is to hinder Greninja with his incoming eggs and to come back safely onto the stage. You seemed to be pretty good at that.

 

[YoHeKing]

As I said, Hydro Pump is gonna be troublesome for Yoshi since Greninja can put him in a bad spot for a killing blow. Yoshi's best bet is to hinder Greninja with his incoming eggs and to come back safely onto the stage. You seemed to be pretty good at that.

Yeah. Yoshi bomb to ledge is also bad in the MU. The slightest hit of hydro pump hits yoshi away from the edge. Hydro pump is pretty annoying.

 

[Degerix]

Yeah. Yoshi bomb to ledge is also bad in the MU. The slightest hit of hydro pump hits yoshi away from the edge. Hydro pump is pretty annoying.

LOL
It gets me in dittos sometimes.

So yeh. Eggs are your best bet. That comes naturally to your head in certain MUs.

 

[Delta-cod]

Could you explain how hydro pump interacts with our attempts to DJ/Egg Toss towards the stage/ledge?

 

[Degerix]

Could you explain how hydro pump interacts with our attempts to DJ/Egg Toss towards the stage/ledge?

There's no doubt Hydro Pump isn't as effective on Yoshi as it is on most fighters since he can use his Egg Toss multiple times. In certain MUs, including Yoshi, I use Hydro Pump as a way to reposition Yoshi or put him in a bad spot rather than just gimping because that's near impossible. After I put him in a bad spot, I wait for a reaction and then react. That's usually my situation.

 

[YoHeKing]

Could you explain how hydro pump interacts with our attempts to DJ/Egg Toss towards the stage/ledge?

It puts Yoshi pretty far up above the stage due to his floatyness. After that its basically a very very high chance of getting followed up.

 

[Delta-cod]

And we can't afford to keep hanging off stage to get down to stage level because there's not enough lag on hydro pump? What about if we're originally coming about ledge-level with Egg Toss?

Does the large amount of height we get come from being pushed during DJ?

 

[Degerix]

And we can't afford to keep hanging off stage to get down to stage level because there's not enough lag on hydro pump? What about if we're originally coming about ledge-level with Egg Toss?

Does the large amount of height we get come from being pushed during DJ?

You're gonna have to enlighten me on what DJ is. I've never heard of the term before.

 

[Delta-cod]

Double Jump.

 

[Degerix]

Yeah. Anything that gives extra height to a character will be effected greatly if Greninja's water comes in contact with it.

Double Jump.

By the way, the facepalm was for me. Thought I'd point that out.

 

[YoHeKing]

Its pretty safe to recover to only using up B to get back horizontally. If you have to recover low thats like a free down air spike since yoshi sucks at snapping the ledge. Theres always yoshi bomb under ledge but hydropump ruins that. But recoverying low or getting pushed up without a jump is really dangerous in this MU.

Edit I Forgot to mention. Greninjas kinda like sheik. He has a ton of aerial end lag but has like no lag canceling it on ground. Its all more safe to recover horizontal though unlike against sheik.

 

[CourageHound]

One of my main problems against Greninja is reacting accordingly after being hit or after the my shield is hit.

If Greninja hits you with a jab they can jab cancel and either charge f-smash if you were to land with an attack or airdodge. If they predict you to jump away you can be up-smashed. Greninja's sweetspot up smash kills yoshi at 110 iirc.

A lot of greninja's moves(including grabs) on hit always leading into some kind of combo or 50-50 situation. Nair, up tilt, all his throws and fair especially.

 

[Degerix]

One of my main problems against Greninja is reacting accordingly after being hit or after the my shield is hit.

If Greninja hits you with a jab they can jab cancel and either charge f-smash if you were to land with an attack or airdodge. If they predict you to jump away you can be up-smashed. Greninja's sweetspot up smash kills yoshi at 110 iirc.

A lot of greninja's moves(including grabs) on hit always leading into some kind of combo or 50-50 situation. Nair, up tilt, all his throws and fair especially.

Yeh.. Greninja has a TON of combo setups and follow-ups. Some of the most likely of combos are:
-NAir > Up Smash at low to mid percents
-NAir > FAir at high percents
-There are some insane combos Greninja can do at the beginning of the match if he can get in a NAir or fully charged Water Shuriken that can deal a dangerous amount of damage

Greninja can rack up damage pretty quickly with his combo game and projectile but that's only part of the battle. From my experiences, if Greninja doesn't get a good read, then most of his moves are unreliable kill options (I can't stress enough on how many battles I've lost due to my opponent having a lot of rage at very high percents while I'm still at 70-90 percent. Good game.) His combos are hard to escape from but can be prevented. Greninja's NAir has plenty of start-up so you have a LITTLE BIT of time before it happens. As for his grabs, they're not true combos except for Up Throw > UAir. I use Down Throw to bait out an air dodge or jump to either punish the air dodge with a NAir for a combo or Up Smash to finish the battle or read the jump and chase my opponent with a FAir. Learn how to tech as well as this'll SERIOUSLY help against Greninja. He can spike you to the ground with his UAir which only makes his combo game more dangerous but it's techable.

I'd play with you to help you with the MU but I've been having Internet issues for the past two months and I dunno when it'll get fixed. :\

 

[YoHeKing]

Yeh.. Greninja has a TON of combo setups and follow-ups. Some of the most likely of combos are:
-NAir > Up Smash at low to mid percents
-NAir > FAir at high percents
-There are some insane combos Greninja can do at the beginning of the match if he can get in a NAir or fully charged Water Shuriken that can deal a dangerous amount of damage

Greninja can rack up damage pretty quickly with his combo game and projectile but that's only part of the battle. From my experiences, if Greninja doesn't get a good read, then most of his moves are unreliable kill options (I can't stress enough on how many battles I've lost due to my opponent having a lot of rage at very high percents while I'm still at 70-90 percent. Good game.) His combos are hard to escape from but can be prevented. Greninja's NAir has plenty of start-up so you have a LITTLE BIT of time before it happens. As for his grabs, they're not true combos except for Up Throw > UAir. I use Down Throw to bait out an air dodge or jump to either punish the air dodge with a NAir for a combo or Up Smash to finish the battle or read the jump and chase my opponent with a FAir. Learn how to tech as well as this'll SERIOUSLY help against Greninja. He can spike you to the ground with his UAir which only makes his combo game more dangerous but it's techable.

I'd play with you to help you with the MU but I've been having Internet issues for the past two months and I dunno when it'll get fixed. :\

Greninja got buffs while your Internet went out.

I noticed Yoshi can SDI out of greninjas up air. Ive done it multiple times and once canceld the first hit and did a up air. SDI and DI mechanics I still dont fully understand yoshis SDI and DI mechanics.

Edit: I don't think yoshi can tech greninjas up air spike till high percents.

 

[Degerix]

Greninja got buffs while your Internet went out.

I noticed Yoshi can SDI out of greninjas up air. Ive done it multiple times and once canceld the first hit and did a up air. SDI and DI mechanics I still dont fully understand yoshis SDI and DI mechanics.

Edit: I don't think yoshi can tech greninjas up air spike till high percents.

I'm aware that Greninja got slightly buffed.

Also, Yoshi can't tech out of UAir until high percents? I'm gonna need to test that out sometime.
Ó _ ô

 

[Skitrel]

I've found Greninja to be incredibly effective at performing anti-air against Yoshi. Yoshi's that prefer to SHeggthrow have a hard time against him once the Greninja realises his sliding usmash is incredibly effective against SHeggthrow.

It seems to be a fight we want to keep grounded, however his star projectile is effective at forcing us off the ground.

Keeping a distance that can punish star throws with a quick SHfair seems to be the most effective. It puts them in an uncomfortable position, this is essentially exactly the same strategy I use against Ness and their love of sideB. The only thing to watch out for here is quick run ins for a grab or sliding usmash. Yoshi is quick enough to retreat on reaction to this though.

Seems to be roughly even. It's a matchup that's definitely harder than some of our typical ones, but it's not a matchup that's particularly against us in anyway. Fights between people that know the matchup drag on for quite a while with neither side over-committing to give the opponent punishes.

Seems like impatience loses it more than anything.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey guys, the fact that you guys are having this discussion right now is really convenient, the Greninja boards are also discussing Yoshi, though we haven't really begun it there.

 

[Degerix]

Hey guys, the fact that you guys are having this discussion right now is really convenient, the Greninja boards are also discussing Yoshi, though we haven't really begun it there.

Whaddya know? I was just dragged in by a friend that's a Yoshi main.

 

[Skitrel]

Link to the Greninja thread for convenience:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-yoshi-8-10-8-17.369356/page-24#post-19876971

 

[FullMoon]

I forgot to link to the thread. Deeerp

It's interesting that you guys seem to think the MU is even though, a lot of Greninja mains seem to find the MU bad. Not me though.

 

[Degerix]

I forgot to link to the thread. Deeerp

It's interesting that you guys seem to think the MU is even though, a lot of Greninja mains seem to find the MU bad. Not me though.

I do see it as fairly even. It's a pretty tricky match up in my opinion. I'm heading to the Greninja Boards for right now.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'd say this is prolly even or -1 Yoshi honestly.
The buffs given to Greninja makes him a better character than Yoshi. Only problem Greninja has is the fact he's incredibly light so he's prone to dying early if we get a lucky hit on him if we ever do.

 

[FullMoon]

I'd say this is prolly even or -1 Yoshi honestly.
The buffs given to Greninja makes him a better character than Yoshi. Only problem Greninja has is the fact he's incredibly light so he's prone to dying early if we get a lucky hit on him if we ever do.

He's not that light actually. He's of average height, alongside Ness and Lucas he's the 30-32th heaviest and only one point lighter than Sonic, Pac-Man, Robin and Roy who are the 26th-29th heaviests, which is pretty much the average considering we have 53 characters right now.

 

[YoHeKing]

Its pretty even tbh. Campy yoshis just loose against alot of greninjas from what I see and hear.

Im pretty sure degerix 2 stocked alot of campy yoshis. Greninja really beats that type of play because he has the tools for it.

 

[Fuerzo]

This strikes me as a matchup where we should play somewhat more aggressively from my limited experience with Greninjas. Grounded eggs are helpful because they arc over his projectile, but I don't think he responds well to pressure and is definitely at a disadvantage in the air (though, as said, is very good at anti-air), but Greninja has even more of a problem with reliable kill options than Yoshi (his usmash is obviously great, but other than that...), and despite his combo ability in theory I'm somewhat suspicious of how effective it is in practice, especially against Yoshi. No idea on a matchup ratio, but probably slightly in our favor.

 

[YoHeKing]

This strikes me as a matchup where we should play somewhat more aggressively from my limited experience with Greninjas. Grounded eggs are helpful because they arc over his projectile, but I don't think he responds well to pressure and is definitely at a disadvantage in the air (though, as said, is very good at anti-air), but Greninja has even more of a problem with reliable kill options than Yoshi (his usmash is obviously great, but other than that...), and despite his combo ability in theory I'm somewhat suspicious of how effective it is in practice, especially against Yoshi. No idea on a matchup ratio, but probably slightly in our favor.

It should be pretty even tbh. Greninja can shadow sneak out of our first jab setups including jab2 and egg setups. lol.

Campy yoshi shouldn't be winning this MU against a really really good greninja. Yoshis should either go aggressive which is most effective due to greninja having some of the trickiest stuff. His aerials are like completly unpunishable from a short hop unless you punish before the hitbox comes out. Yoshi kills him with his aerials though.

Perfect play though yoshi might just slightly dominate because of his frame data but greninja is all about those mind games and tricks which makes him good in a imperfect world.

 

[FullMoon]

There's no theory when it comes to Greninja's combos, when he gets in he racks up the damage very quickly and his kill setups are all legit. Yoshi is a bit harder to keep under pressure because of the super armor on his double jump, but he won't be able to escape the true combos, obviously.

Also Greninja has plenty of strong kill moves that can be combo'd into. Up-Smash, F-Air, Shadow Sneak and Up-Air can all be combo'd into and kill at reasonably percentages. If all else fails, there's Up-Throw as well which with rage (which we should get a lot of against Yoshi outside of a read) can kill Yoshi off the top at good percentages.

 

[YoHeKing]

There's no theory when it comes to Geninja's combos, when he gets in he racks up the damage very quickly and his kill setups are all legit. Yoshi is a bit harder to keep under pressure because of the super armor on his double jump, but he won't be able to escape the true combos, obviously.

Also Greninja has plenty of strong kill moves that can be combo'd into. Up-Smash, F-Air, Shadow Sneak and Up-Air can all be combo'd into and kill at reasonably percentages. If all else fails, there's Up-Throw as well which with rage (which we should get a lot of against Yoshi outside of a read) can kill Yoshi off the top at good percentages.

Yeah I think I brought some or alot of this up. Yoshi gets out of to many comboes but It seems greninja might combo yoshi better then anyone else (probably not top 5 heavy)because heavy and floaty and combo breakers almost never work.

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah I think I brought some or alot of this up. Yoshi gets out of to many comboes but It seems greninja might combo yoshi better then anyone else (probably not top 5 heavy)because heavy and floaty and combo breakers almost never work.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Yoshi is apparently the easiest character for Greninja to get his footstool setups on and most Greninja players practice them on him as a result. Those shouldn't be common but those factors do make so that it's easier for them to happen against Yoshi than any other character, and those combos can deal up to 60% out of one N-Air.

 

[YoHeKing]

Another thing worth mentioning is that Yoshi is apparently the easieit character for Greninja to get his footstool setups on and most Greninja players practice them on him as a result. Those shouldn't be common but those factors do make so that it's easier for them to happen against Yoshi than any other character, and those combos can deal up to 60% out of one N-Air.

Grounded footstool seems like the worst and slowest for yoshi. A footstool from above cant be down aired unless yoshi Is close to the ground.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I kinda felt this MU was -1 but kept it even solely cause we can kinda kill greninja easily with rage and if we somehow avoid everything.
But those footstool setups for free 60+% tho... -1 again maybe?

 

[YoHeKing]

I kinda felt this MU was -1 but kept it even solely cause we can kinda kill grenasily with rage and if we somehow avoid everything.
But those footstool setups for free 60+% tho... -1 again maybe?

Not even. Just gonna put this out here but yoshis footstool options are better then greninjas but harder to set up. The MU takes alot of experience offline or online to fully understand.

Greninjas fast fall and lightweight makes our aerials kill so much earlier then there supose to. Combos are really what is making this MU even.

 

[FullMoon]

Grounded footstool seems like the worst and slowest for yoshi. A footstool from above cant be down aired unless yoshi Is close to the ground.

Um...

What?

 

[YoHeKing]

Um...

What?

Footstool options/combos really only work really close to ground or grounded. Yoshi is the fastest air speed in the game. Footstools above the ground slightly dont work

 

[FullMoon]

Footstool options/combos really only work really close to ground or grounded. Yoshi is the fastest air speed in the game. Footstools above the ground slightly dont work

You can't DI out of Greninja's footstool combos or move out of the way in time. If you manage to move out then the Greninja just let you fly too high after the N-Air.