MU Discussion: Greninja

[YoHeKing]

You can't DI out of Greninja's footstool combos or move out of the way in time. If you manage to move out then the Greninja just let you fly too high after the N-Air.

You can't DI out of Greninja's footstool combos or move out of the way in time. If you manage to move out then the Greninja just let you fly too high after the N-Air.

Actually yeah. I goofed up even though I knre he could lol. Im pretty sure he can only do down air follow ups though.

 

[FullMoon]

For reference:

 

[Yikarur]

I've experienced that Yoshi loses head-on and playing campy/careful seemed an MU changer for me. Not the "force the opponent to approach campy" but the "do less because you lose any trade"- campy. Like standing in mid range and don't commit too much.
It just feels like you lose for commiting too much. That was my feel so far. I had major problems in that MU until I realized that.

 

[YoHeKing]

Tbh though his footstool combos and stuff dont change the MU by alot though. His footstool stuff works like all the crew xD

Edit: playing aggresive isnt for everyone. Maybe patient is better then campy but aggresive seems to be one of greninjas bigest weaknesses. Rushdowns and stuff. Is that correct?

 

[FullMoon]

I didn't mean to make it sound like footstool combos are going to make this MU totally in our favor or anything, I was just saying "hey this is something that could happen"

Greninja is not a rushdown character, he's a footsies character. He pesters you with shurikens (though Yoshi has eggs) and messes with you while waiting for you to mess up so he can capitalize on your mistake. Greninja is not supposed to be full out aggression, he's a patient kind of character.

The shuriken buff in particular allows Greninja to play really patient now while zoning a lot of character out with high speed shurikens that cover a lot of ground. This isn't too much of an issue for Yoshi though, because again, eggs.

 

[YoHeKing]

I didn't mean to make it sound like footstool combos are going to make this MU totally in our favor or anything, I was just saying "hey this is something that could happen"

Greninja is not a rushdown character, he's a footsies character. He pesters you with shurikens (though Yoshi has eggs) and messes with you while waiting for you to mess up so he can capitalize on your mistake. Greninja is not supposed to be full out aggression, he's a patient kind of character.

The shuriken buff in particular allows Greninja to play really patient now while zoning a lot of character out with high speed shurikens that cover a lot of ground. This isn't too much of an issue for Yoshi though, because again, eggs.

Mhm. Trust me I know greninija Is patient. Then that makes rushdown effecteffective against him right? He cant really keep his distance

 

[FullMoon]

Mhm. Trust me I know greninija Is patient. Then that makes rushdown effecteffective against him right? He cant really keep his distance

He can deal with rushdown, some rushdown characters like Falcon for instance can't deal with shuriken too well, the characters that tend to beat Greninja tend to be characters that can both keep up with him and don't care about shurikens much (so, Sheik, Sonic and Fox).

Yoshi definitely outspeeds Greninja in the air, but on the ground he struggles more, plus his fall speed makes his vertical mobility kinda iffy while Greninja can go up and down with ease. The fact Yoshi can struggle to seal the kill also helps Greninja a lot because he can build up rage and so he can get more early kills if he gets the right kill setup (this is pretty much the main thing that makes Sheik bearable for us).

Even if you do get in Greninja's face, he does have some good CQC tools in jab and D-Tilt, as well as pivot F-Tilt being a safe poke. Greninja is very good at running away so he can control the pace of the match very well.

I firmly believe this MU to be even.

 

[YoHeKing]

He can deal with rushdown, some rushdown characters like Falcon for instance can't deal with shuriken too well, the characters that tend to beat Greninja tend to be characters that can both keep up with him and don't care about shurikens much (so, Sheik, Sonic and Fox).

Yoshi definitely outspeeds Greninja in the air, but on the ground he struggles more, plus his fall speed makes his vertical mobility kinda iffy while Greninja can go up and down with ease. The fact Yoshi can struggle to seal the kill also helps Greninja a lot because he can build up rage and so he can get more early kills if he gets the right kill setup (this is pretty much the main thing that makes Sheik bearable for us).

Even if you do get in Greninja's face, he does have some good CQC tools in jab and D-Tilt, as well as pivot F-Tilt being a safe poke. Greninja is very good at running away so he can control the pace of the match very well.

I firmly believe this MU to be even.

I just thought of something. Yoshis 1st hit jab setups are op on greninja lol.

 

[Dooms]

I just thought of something. Yoshis 1st hit jab setups are op on greninja lol.

Can he not shadow sneak out of them?

 

[YoHeKing]

Can he not shadow sneak out of them?

Yeah but the endlag makes It worse.

 

[Cat8752]

Not even. Just gonna put this out here but yoshis footstool options are better then greninjas but harder to set up. The MU takes alot of experience offline or online to fully understand.

Yoshi's footstol options are better than Gren's? Wat. Gren can get insane combos that can kill or deal around 60%. I've always imagined Yoshi could combo footstool -> fair jab lock but I've never actually seen Yoshi get anything out of a footstool.

Also this MU seems confusing, don't put yourself above Gren, but approach him with aerials?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Just wanna mention Greninja footstool combos are insane and Greninja mains tend to use Yoshi as a training dummy both cause of how easy it is to do these combos on him and the fact they have the most on Yoshi.

 

[YoHeKing]

Greninja is a fast faller we can get footstools from alot of our kill setups. Especially up air. Footstool setups REALLY dont change that much on the MU and greninja still has trouble killing even with it. The only time we should get foostooled is when were in hitstun which doesnt really even setup down air after unless were really close to the ground. Its becuase yoshis too fast in the air and floaty. Correct me if im wrong though.

Also theres a huge diffrence between testing on a dummy then testing on a actually human.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja doesn't struggle to kill at all. We have tons of kill setups coming from a variety of different moves and we can you into a lot of 50/50 situations. D-Throw -> F-Air is only avoidable by airdodging but if we delay the F-Air we can hit you regardless for instance.

Also footstool setups shouldn't be dismissed, Greninja mains are making use of them in real matches. Just look at Some:

You can't even pull the For Glory card here because one of these is clearly happens in a tournament due to the presence of a third player.

Greninja is a mix-up character and you can never be too sure of what he's going to do because he has many options to force 50/50 situations if he's versatile enough and good at baiting.

 

[Lukingordex]

Can't Yoshi DJ out of Dthrow -> Fair?

 

[FullMoon]

Can't Yoshi DJ out of Dthrow -> Fair?

Not if done correctly, I think. A buffered airdodge comes out before a buffered double jump and the timing is such that if you try to buffer a double jump you get hit. And that's if you DI properly, if you don't you just get hit.

For further reference about this MU there's this:

If I'm correct that's one of the best Yoshis in Japan and you can even see footstool combos here.

 

[Cat8752]

Greninja is a fast faller we can get footstools from alot of our kill setups. Especially up air.

Yeah I still don't see when we'd be able to footstool Gren from our setups.

 

[YoHeKing]

Hmm. Maybe I should make a video about them. Nobody really knows much of them even though we could get alot out of them there hard to use.

Not if done correctly, I think. A buffered airdodge comes out before a buffered double jump and the timing is such that if you try to buffer a double jump you get hit. And that's if you DI properly, if you don't you just get hit.

For further reference about this MU there's this:

If I'm correct that's one of the best Yoshis in Japan and you can even see footstool combos here.

WAIT THATS ONE OF THE BEST YOSHI PLAYERS IN JAPAN?! whaaaa . I dont get that guy at all. Why does he try to camp on the ledge and do a sd worst then missing the ledge with down b? Ive seen him play before this too.
Anyways yeah those were nice footstool combos but cmon is that really a MU changer to make it a -2(considering that Yoshi can combo fast fallers alot better that its basically our footstool against greninja. Well kinda.) ? BTW I dont think those two are any close to skill levels at all. The greninja is ridiculously better then that Yoshi from what I see.

Also whats up with that buffered air dodge comes out faster then a buffered double jump? Is that true?

Greninja doesn't struggle to kill at all. We have tons of kill setups coming from a variety of different moves and we can you into a lot of 50/50 situations. D-Throw -> F-Air is only avoidable by airdodging but if we delay the F-Air we can hit you regardless for instance.

Also footstool setups shouldn't be dismissed, Greninja mains are making use of them in real matches. Just look at Some:

You can't even pull the For Glory card here because one of these is clearly happens in a tournament due to the presence of a third player.

Greninja is a mix-up character and you can never be too sure of what he's going to do because he has many options to force 50/50 situations if he's versatile enough and good at baiting.

Also Yoshi can actually get out of alot of greninja kill setups because hes floaty and he can live them because hes heavy. Im not saying he doesn't have them but nothing really sets up the kill easily other then a good ol read.

 

[FullMoon]

When did I say the MU was a -2 for you guys? Lol

My point is only that you should not take footstool combos out of consideration because they are very real and Greninja mains do use them especially at top level.

I'm not sure if that guy is one of the best Yoshis or not, I didn't really do much research on that front.

You being floaty means very little when you're also heavy. We can combo you just fine and get our kill setups on you. If our kill setups can work on freaking Jigglypuff then they can work on you too.

The buffered airdodge thing is true, yes. It's why Sheik's D-Throw 50/50 work. If a buffered jump came out at the same time as a bufferred airdodge, you could just jump out to avoid the up-air.

 

[Sinister Slush]

DIO is prolly the best japanese Yoshi that's active.

 

[YoHeKing]

When did I say the MU was a -2 for you guys? Lol

My point is only that you should not take footstool combos out of consideration because they are very real and Greninja mains do use them especially at top level.

I'm not sure if that guy is one of the best Yoshis or not, I didn't really do much research on that front.

You being floaty means very little when you're also heavy. We can combo you just fine and get our kill setups on you. If our kill setups can work on freaking Jigglypuff then they can work on you too.

The buffered airdodge thing is true, yes. It's why Sheik's D-Throw 50/50 work. If a buffered jump came out at the same time as a bufferred airdodge, you could just jump out to avoid the up-air.

Yoshi can jump out of sheiks 50/50 harmless though so I dont get it. Also yeah I do know footstool combos are very real as greninja mains have done it on me but I was talking to sinister slush who was acting like the footstool combos were a really huge downside for Yoshi...

Also it doesn't matter if your kill setups work on jigglypuff because yoshi is alot diffrent man. Hes floaty and 11th heaviest in the game and basically imuned to alot of kill setups. For example donkey kongs ding dong combo never really works on him or kills him. Pre Patch Luigi couldnt really kill him with a back air but it took like 150% for Yoshi to die from down throw down B. Alot of sheiks kill setups are gone vs us. Lucarios aura into up smash is alot harder to pull off vs a Yoshi.

Not really sure about this but Im pretty sure it has to do with our floatyness making the regular KB on a move make us go further up but KBG doesnt effect us as much and were not light so we wouldnt die when the moves connect. So basically at 80% it shows Yoshi going further up from kill setup then most heavy weights because kill setups often have low knock back growth or something like that.
Thats basically how it works but im sure theres a real reason and not a kinda made up one.

 

[Cat8752]

Yoshi can jump out of sheiks 50/50 harmless though so I dont get it. Also yeah I do know footstool combos are very real as greninja mains have done it on me but I was talking to sinister slush who was acting like the footstool combos were a really huge downside for Yoshi...

Also it doesn't matter if your kill setups work on jigglypuff because yoshi is alot diffrent man. Hes floaty and 11th heaviest in the game and basically imuned to alot of kill setups. For example donkey kongs ding dong combo never really works on him or kills him. Pre Patch Luigi couldnt really kill him with a back air but it took like 150% for Yoshi to die from down throw down B. Alot of sheiks kill setups are gone vs us. Lucarios aura into up smash is alot harder to pull off vs a Yoshi.

Not really sure about this but Im pretty sure it has to do with our floatyness making the regular KB on a move make us go further up but KBG doesnt effect us as much and were not light so we wouldnt die when the moves connect. So basically at 80% it shows Yoshi going further up from kill setup then most heavy weights because kill setups often have low knock back growth or something like that.
Thats basically how it works but im sure theres a real reason and not a kinda made up one.

That being said our hurtboxes aren't too forgiving, and being floaty also means we can be kept in one place more easily. I understand some stuff is harder to on Yoshi, but some stuff is easier too. Remember when customs were a thing? Marth's grab release combo killed us in like, every possible situation, and there were situations where we were the only ones to be grab released. Yoshi isn't heavy or a fastfaller, but that doesn't stop Gren from being able to footstool combo us with relative ease.

Also yeah from previous watching Mizutami seems alright as a Yoshi but Some is like, one of if not the best Greninjas, so gain what knowledge you can from that video, but it should be noted there is a large skill gap.

 

[YoHeKing]

Actually yoshi has weitd grab release mechanics and can make it a air release or grab release with certain inputs and mashing speed. I found this tech after realizing marths air release wouldnt always put yoshi in the air.

Remember that greninja cant footstool us unless were really close to the stage. I want to test if the best possible DI can escape greninjas footstool setups.

 

[ImBlob]

I'd like to bump this. I'm consistantly losing to a Greninja player at locals and at Xanadu and I've found almost no answers through my own play & in this thread. It seems that he can ban FD, sit beneath platforms with his projectile and wait for me to do something he can capitalize on (which is A LOT of things). I've realized that the only shot we have in winning this matchup is a realllly strong ground game, which I lack. He wins neutral 90% of the time, if you toss an egg he can just run under it and grab you, and he has some nasty confirms out of grab as you all know. I just don't know how to approach this matchup. Even when I'm fighting Diddy I don't have as much trouble finding openings, and even when I do find an opening vs Greninja I can never get a whole lot out of it. His offstage game utterly ****s on our offstage game, and recovering to ledge and getting back onstage safely in general can be a huge struggle. Any advice would be greatly appreciated so I don't have to end up picking up Mario, lol.