MU Chart 3

[Ereth]

A good Ike won't use it when you can DS out of it, and thats only at really low percents where the Ike would benefit more from dthrow followups. You don't even need to use ledge get up invincibility if the Marth recovers really low, there is significantly less hitboxes at the end of DS than at the start.

What good Ike players have you played against?

 

[smashkng]

Not many Ike players (only a bit with River), but I do know the Marth MU from Ike's perspective because I used to main Ike for 2 years.
And from Ike's perspective it does not feel like an easy MU at all. I've played against Haze's Marth offline with Ike and whenever I gimped it felt like it shouldn't have happened. The best move for Ike in the MU felt like was Bair by far because its range to keep Marth out decently when I had space to do so and being his only aerial with fast start-up. I'm sure that DS has a hitbox at his head height all the time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAWoZsGpwQ#t=164s .Retreating Bair doesn't feel super safe. Ike's main problem in the Marth MU (and other fast character MUs like Fox and MK, that's why I really hated such MUs) is pretty much what Blubo said. He outranges Marth but in order to be safe he needs a lot of room and Marth has a relatively easy time cornering Ike to make him unable to keep that safe zone and making almost everything he does easy to punish. Such MUs for Ike have always felt like "First try, hit shield but free from punish, second try, hit shield, get punished and wrecked". Ike's average to mediocre mobility makes it almost impossible to zone out mobile characters. Retreating aerials is important for Ike to make his moves safe, but he also loses stage control when he retreats and he is not very good at regaining it. And once he gets cornered it also becomes easier to send Ike offstage with Marth.

Watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbYqY5fZ3zI it really also seems like Ike has nothing to intercept Marth's DS. 95% of the time Ike also doesn't really get anything from edge hogging Marth. Edge guarding Marth with Ike is like edge guarding MK with Marth (we can rack up some damage on MK offstage by mini edge guards or ledge trapping, but Marth can't ever gimp MK).

 

[Shaya]

In a world of power shielding, Marth has a really tight rush down against Ike (power shield any aerial -> ftilt at worst case, and fair or uair in most cases). I think what Ike really does to Marth to avoid this is how fast he can move out of a dash, his pivot options, relatively good jump to fast fall speed and the "fear" of an aerial being good enough (kinda like how playing DK properly involves a lot of not back airing at all because its actually really punishable).

Stuff like power shield -> dash attack from Ike is also really stronk. He can also go for long dashes and **** us with up smashing when our usual full hop retreating fair would be a cinch against everyone else.

 

[C.J.]

MU is +/-1
Marth is still fast enough and has the ability to gimp Ike to keep it from even. Ike's punishes also hurt like hell.
Ike carries momentum really well and Ereth is right about most of it. If Marth gets hit by fair between like, 15 and 70%, he's getting taken for a ride. It's too hard for us to re-set our spacing/zoning so quickly with a giant ass piece of metal flailing at us. We end up getting hit offstage (or grabbed into being hit offstage, seriously, I hate that dash attack) and things get bad.