Momentum Braking with Pika

[SilverSpark]

What's the best way to slow your vertical momentum with Pikachu? What about horizontal momentum?

- For vertical, I DI and use F-air once or twice then D-air.

- For horizontal, I DI and spam F-air

Are there better ways to slow pikachu's momentum?

(by the way, I took the idea of this thread from the mario forum. thanks )

 

[gallax]

i definately hit my airdodge button on everything horizontal. and for going upwards i DI down and hit my dair a few times.

 

[KayLo!]

Hmm, for vertical I use f-air to regain momentum control, then d-air.

For horizontal, I just spam f-air. Both after DI'ing of course.

Galax, I believe using an aerial is slightly more effective than air dodging when it comes to regaining control of your momentum.... there's a thread about it somewhere, but I forget which forum it's in.

IIRC, some characters (Wario & his Bike Braking come to mind) might use AD'ing instead, especially if their aerials are very slow. Pika's are pretty fast though, so I would think f-air would be your best option.

....I could be wrong on this, though. I just distinctly remember changing my habits because I used to air dodge, then learned that aerials are better for the job.

Edit: Err, I should add that after I f-air (for horizontal knockback), I jump. Jumping is important.

 

[M15t3R E]

For vertical knockback, I DI, jump horizontally and use dairs.
For horizontal knockback, I DI, jump upwards and do fairs.

Definitely do not airdodge to regain momentum. It does not work. Period.

Not really sure what in Pika's moveset is the best choice to brake your momentum. I need to test skullbash and see what kind of momentum braking applications that has.

 

[KayLo!]

Not really sure what in Pika's moveset is the best choice to brake your momentum. I need to test skullbash and see what kind of momentum braking applications that has.

I thought about testing Skull Bash for its momentum braking potential after I read about G&W's Bucket Braking and Wario's Bike Braking.

I think it's situational... if you're close to being level with the stage, you could ultimately screw yourself over since you have to fall while you're executing the move. Since SB has a lot of startup/ending lag, even uncharged, you can lose a fair amount of vertical distance on your way back to the stage.

High above the stage, however, it might be better than f-air since it auto-stops horizontal momentum, unlike f-air.

It might always work though, who knows. Maybe with QA's flexibility, it could work even if you're low to the stage.

It also depends on how far horizontally an uncharged SB sends you. Characters with good edgeguarding options (MK, ROB) could easily go offstage and punish this theoretical "Bash Braking" because of SB's predictability.

 

[Zylar]

I'm just like Silverspark.
For verticle, Di + FF Fairs
For horizontal, Di + Fair + whatever else to get back.

Skull Bash at least cancels out verticle momentum when you're jumping or something.
So maybe jump > skull bash for verticle knockback???

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The best way to stop vertical movement is Dairing, and the best way to stop horizontal momentum is to uair and then skull bash (i think)

 

[KayLo!]

I'm just like Silverspark.
For verticle, Di + FF Fairs
For horizontal, Di + FF Fair + whatever else to get back.

Skull Bash at least cancels out verticle momentum when you're jumping or something.
So maybe jump > skull bash for verticle knockback???

For horizontal, why would you fast-fall your f-air? That would just make you fall closer to your doom.... Pikachu's recovery is pretty good, but I guess I don't see why you'd choose to fall towards the bottom of the stage while recovering. A regular f-air works just as well.

The best way to stop vertical movement is Dairing, and the best way to stop horizontal momentum is to uair and then skull bash (i think)

I... sort of agree.

As far as I recall, momentum braking works like this:

1. DI properly.

2. Regain control of your momentum/break out of the "stunned" state from being hit. This is usually done by throwing out your fastest aerial.... fast being determined by the number of frames a move is in its entirety. The faster the better, because you want to move on to Step 3 as quickly as possible.

3. The important part where you actually change your momentum. Some people jump, which cancels horizontal movement depending on which direction you jump. For Pika, Skull Bashing could be the best option (as you & Mr. E brought up) because it completely halts horizontal movement. It's a reliable brake.

If you go by that logic, I guess you would be right, ESAM. Uair is Pikachu's fastest aerial in its entirety, but I usually go for f-air just because I feel like it gives me the slightest boost back towards the stage. That could just be my imagination, though.... f-air also just comes more naturally to me.

D-air is definitely best for vertical knockback, though. It auto-FFs and stretches Pika downward, so it's the obvious choice. Jumping at the top of the screen is... just... not smart imho.

Edit: I just did some testing, and Skull Bash only reliably halts horizontal momentum when it's done in reverse. If you do it forwards (which you would always be if you're using it to brake momentum), you continue moving horizontally for a short time. Therefore, I'm gonna have to go with jumping as the best way to change your momentum after you've done your aerial. This is for horizontal knockback only, of course.

This was just a quick test in Training Mode, though, going off of what I could see. Maybe someone else will find different results.

 

[Zylar]

Whoops! thx Kaylo. I'll go edit. lol

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yes skull bash stops all momentem. once pika makes the KA sound, i have never died. basically, if you are sent up use dair and ff it, if you are sent horizontal, the best way is uair, ff and sb. ive survived a fresh snake ftilt at 160 before. also never jump. the game has a built in pnealty system that pushes you farther away if you jump.

 

[KayLo!]

yes skull bash stops all momentem. once pika makes the KA sound, i have never died. basically, if you are sent up use dair and ff it, if you are sent horizontal, the best way is uair, ff and sb. ive survived a fresh snake ftilt at 160 before. also never jump. the game has a built in pnealty system that pushes you farther away if you jump.

Really? Hmm, I didn't know about this "penalty system".... if that's the case, I guess SB is much better than a jump. (Does the penalty only happen if you jump before you do an aerial or does it come into effect even after you do one?)

However, SB doesn't stop all horizontal momentum. Test it in Training Mode.... you keep drifting sideways for a bit when Pikachu first starts charging. It only stops it completely if you do it in reverse, no lies.

It's a moot point if a jump is a bad idea, though.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

no it stops as soon as the ka happens. im not talking about the charging part. i have died in the inital parts of it, because that part never stops momentum. either way it is the best thing he has.

 

[Zylar]

Really? Hmm, I didn't know about this "penalty system".... if that's the case, I guess SB is much better than a jump. (Does the penalty only happen if you jump before you do an aerial or does it come into effect even after you do one?)

I think if you do an aerial first, you've regained you're momentum (Correct me if I'm wrong, stealth.) (Edit : I'm wrong. )

However, SB doesn't stop all horizontal momentum. Test it in Training Mode.... you keep drifting sideways for a bit when Pikachu first starts charging. It only stops it completely if you do it in reverse, no lies.

"once pika makes the KA sound"

It's a moot point if a jump is a bad idea, though.

But you don't have to jump first, just do uair to SB or something, like stealth said. No jump.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you can fair, and then jump and the penalty will still happen. i believe it stops once his horizontal momentum drops below a certain speed.

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, I missed the part about the KA sound. Sry, sry, I didn't sleep last night, gimme a break.

As for the first part you commented on, Zylar, I was asking because if the penalty is only BEFORE you use an aerial, jumping would still be the best option. Because jump comes out faster than the momentum-stopping portion of Skull Bash.

When you do your aerial, you've regained control of your momentum, but you haven't changed it yet. The part that comes after the aerial is the part that actually stops you from moving towards the edge.

But if Stealth is right, and I have no doubt that he is, then SB is the best option. I'm not arguing that, lol.

 

[Zylar]

Ah, I see.

If so, FINALLY BETTER USE FOR SKULL BASH!!!
Bump the "pikachu moveset tier thread" anyone???

 

[Kroova]

So, just to make sure I get this....

For vertical momentum, it's best to DI, then FF a Dair.
For horizontal momentum, it's best to DI, Uair, then SB towards the stage?

Never jump or airdodge, right?
And I didn't really get that about SBing backwards; is that more of a situational thing?

Edit: Currently, I have a really really bad habit of airdodging pretty much any high-knockback attack. Anyone get any good ways to break it?

2nd Edit: Anything on diagonal momentum (NE and NW)? Does that fall under vertical?

 

[KayLo!]

Never SB backwards when you're sent off the stage, lol. I was just sharing the results of my testing... ignore all of it, actually, because it became moot once Stealth brought up his point.

All I can say for breaking your habit is practicing. It took me a few matches to get it right, but it wasn't too hard once I remembered a few times. Your fingers quickly get used to it.

Diagonal momentum usually falls under horizontal. Vertical is anything that will star-KO you; horizontal is anything that will blast you off the sides.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The only way to break your habit is if you just implant it into your head you will die if you do it. Trust me, you just have to go from hitting R to A

 

[K 2]

I posted this in the BR a while ago:

Here is the G&W Bucket Braking Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207111

On page 8, read post #110-117.

Supposedly, Pikachu will be able to survive a lot longer with the momentum cancelling properties of Skull Bash. It's not as good as G&W's bucket braking, but it can possibly be very useful. I haven't tested this out yet, but infzy told me it should work.





If your too lazy to read it, here's a summary:

K2: With Pikachu, I recommend that you DI so that your trajectory is towards one of the stage corners, use a fastfalled Uair as soon as possible to escape hitstun, then immediately use your side-B. That should be enough to allow you to avoid the killzones, so then you can return to the stage however you want (using jump/side-B/up-B, and whatever).

If you're going a really long distance, it's possible that a single side-B after the Uair won't be enough to fully counteract knockback. In this case you have three options:
1. use two side-B's in quick succession
2. charge the side-B enough that it will have a stronger effect, while still releasing it early enough that you don't die (very risky! and probably worse than option 1!)
3. if you're not close to the stage ceiling, use side-B and then jump

I didn't test any of those options enough to know what would be best, and it's very very rare that you'll be in circumstances where it matters.

Of course, if it's the ceiling that will kill you, just fastfall an Uair as early as possible during hitstun. For best results, hold down on the control stick as you C-stick the Uair. Do not use side-B in this case, since it boosts you upwards a bit extra.

 

[Zylar]

I guess being sent horizontal you could DI + FF fair. lol

To break the habit, you could just play a couple of matches with shield off on your controller configuration. Dunno that it would help at all, but just suggesting.

 

[K 2]

You should DI towards the corners and do a FF uair to escape hitstun (or is it hitlag?) Uair is pika's quickest aerial so you can use SB or jump to cancel your horizontal momentum quicker.

For vertical knockback, DI towards the corner, FF uair (or a regular dair), and pray.

 

[rinoH]

sadly i never use any momentum braking type of things ill try to implement this into my game

 

[lmntolp]

there's a thread about this in the tactical section:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522&highlight=recover+aerials

nair is just as fast as uair, so you can use that too. The longer animation shouldn't matter, especially if you're worried about a ceiling kill. Bair is just a bit slower on the startup, so you can use that when you're hit up as well.

 

[K 2]

sadly i never use any momentum braking type of things ill try to implement this into my game

Use it! Depending on your position and the strength of your opponent's attack, you can live anywhere from 5-15% longer than normal.

there's a thread about this in the tactical section:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522&highlight=recover+aerials

nair is just as fast as uair, so you can use that too. The longer animation shouldn't matter, especially if you're worried about a ceiling kill. Bair is just a bit slower on the startup, so you can use that when you're hit up as well.

The longer animation does matter. The quicker the animation ends, the quicker you can pull out your momentum cancelling tricks.

 

[Khanxay]

Skull bash doesn't cancel horizontal momentum if you don't charge long enough. I remember being hit so hard I did it backwards skull bash.

For me:
Horizontal - I DI Down diagonally towards the stage (to slow down both the horizontal and vertical knockback) doing a Up-tilt then Skull bash. Doesn't work too well against hit with a low angle knockback. (G&W's down smash mainly)
Vertical- DI Down doing a up-tilt then Dair.


I usually save the jump. Just me.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Um...DIing down is bad for a horizontal attack, it makes you move farther horizontally. If you DI up, you slow your horizontal momentum. You just have to learn which is better for which attacks.

 

[Khanxay]

Um...DIing down is bad for a horizontal attack, it makes you move farther horizontally. If you DI up, you slow your horizontal momentum. You just have to learn which is better for which attacks.

The physics in that is sooo wrong.

 

[Zylar]

How?
Not DIing makes you go in a straight line.
DIing up makes you curve up.
DIing down makes you curve down.
Which is easier to get back onto the stage?
Up.

It's not so much slowin but making the distance traveled longer.

Unless I'm wrong about something, the physics hold.

 

[K 2]

The physics in that is sooo wrong.

You are very confused...

 

[Khanxay]

How?
Not DIing makes you go in a straight line.
DIing up makes you curve up.
DIing down makes you curve down.
Which is easier to get back onto the stage?
Up.

It's not so much slowin but making the distance traveled longer.

Unless I'm wrong about something, the physics hold.

I wasn't talking about that. I was referring to "DIing down is bad for a horizontal attack, it makes you move farther horizontally. If you DI up, you slow your horizontal momentum
" DI-ing up or down shouldn't affect your horizontal momentum.


Also it's my personal preference to recover low. Pikachu has rather limited options when someone's directly below.

 

[K 2]

I wasn't talking about that. I was referring to "DIing down is bad for a horizontal attack, it makes you move farther horizontally. If you DI up, you slow your horizontal momentum
" DI-ing up or down shouldn't affect your horizontal momentum.


Also it's my personal preference to recover low. Pikachu has rather limited options when someone's directly below.

DI'ing up allows you to have more options when returning to the stage, since you are higher up. Pikachu can airdodge if someone is below him...

You momentum is only affected by momentum cancelling moves, like SB and jumping.

 

[Zylar]

What K2 said.
DI doesn't affect momentum, but distance and posistion

 

[Khanxay]

Pikachu can airdodge if someone is below him...

That's a lot of options.

You momentum is only affected by momentum cancelling moves, like SB and jumping.

I "canceling" is the wrong word for this... But still, you sure DI does nothing?

 

[K 2]

DI affects trajectory. If you DI correctly, it makes your flight path longer (distance) and it puts you higher up (a better position). The farther distance allows you more time to uair and jump/SB to cancel your momentum, allowing you to live longer.

Edit: DI does NOT affect mometum, it only affects the direction you are sent.

 

[Zylar]

That's a lot of options.

I "canceling" is the wrong word for this... But still, you sure DI does nothing?

You can QA if your close enough.
Airdodge in any direction (what K2 said)
Attack first, like nair or dair.
Skull bash away. Depends on how far below you they are.
Jump > whatever. (If you didn't use it.)
Footstool. Hard, risky, but rewarding.

DI does nothing to momentum yes.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

DI doesn't effect momentum, but it makes a longer path until you die. If you fly straight to the left you will die quicker than if you fly up-left. The amount of knockback is the same, but it is a longer path before you die.

 

[Khanxay]

O RLY? Dang. I didn't know. Thanx. Will sort of some-what start to some-what sort of try.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Oh drat... I just posted a collaborative finding on Aerial recovery in the PBR. I guess i'll just repost here.
One of the vids have been posted here already. The other is just confirmation on Jump vs. Aerial for knockback (vid with marth).

Hope this helps.

***Quote... Don't know how to do that here yet, I pasted this from Scotu's Thread On Physics***
*** http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155409***

Unfriendly Momentum

Escaping Aerial Hitstun
Different actions break out of hitsun at different times. The order for these is First the Air dodge, then an aerial, then a special, then a double jump.

Ideally, the fastest way to regain control out of aerial hitsun is usually to do your characters least duration attack. Regardless that the air dodge will break out first, a fast aerial will almost always end before an air dodge would.

Vid by Kizzu-Kun

Fast Falling
Once you've regained control after breaking out of hitstun, if dying over the top is a concern, you can fast fall (even on the way up) to rapidly slow how fast you rise vertically.

Momentum Canceling Specials
If you still have unfriendly momentum when you break out or regain control, using almost every (normally) momentum stopping special attack will result in that special actually giving you're unfriendly momentum a boost. This makes something like Fox's shine one of the worst things you can do for survival.

However, for whatever reason, several momentum stopping specials do not adhere to this mechanic, and actually will stop your momentum (including vertical). These specials are Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket (down-b), Donkey Kong's Up-b, and Yoshi's Side-B. The most effective way to use one of these momentum stopping specials to prevent death is to break out of hitstun with that character's shortest lasting aerial attack, and then use their momentum stopping special to halt all momentum.

Vid by Infzy

***Quoted from Scotu

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu, LDPK, still a fledgeling smashboards'er

 

[KayLo!]

Momentum Canceling Specials
If you still have unfriendly momentum when you break out or regain control, using almost every (normally) momentum stopping special attack will result in that special actually giving you're unfriendly momentum a boost. This makes something like Fox's shine one of the worst things you can do for survival.

However, for whatever reason, several momentum stopping specials do not adhere to this mechanic, and actually will stop your momentum (including vertical). These specials are Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket (down-b), Donkey Kong's Up-b, and Yoshi's Side-B. The most effective way to use one of these momentum stopping specials to prevent death is to break out of hitstun with that character's shortest lasting aerial attack, and then use their momentum stopping special to halt all momentum.

Vid by Infzy

***Quoted from Scotu[/COLOR]

Sooo.... by this logic, using Skull Bash would bad and it would be better to do your double jump? I suppose it would depend on how this penalty for using a special compares to the penalty for using a jump that Stealth mentioned.

Has anyone tested to see if Skull Bash is one of these unique specials that doesn't follow the general rule? I don't think that it is, but it would be pretty great if it was.