Legality Modified Controllers?

[TheJelly]

So, whats the general consensus on modified controllers? I'm not talking about any "turbo" buttons or multishine modifications, but more so things like: custom control sticks (I personally have one stock controller, and one with the c stick swapped out for a control stick) shield drop notches, etc.

Are these controllers legal in tournament?

 

[Synnett]

This is something that was never really addressed... and not something anyone wants to discuss it seems lol.

But yes, those are currently legal, but it really depends on the TO of the event.

 

[Pauer]

This topic was talked about for quite a while after Kadano started selling his controller mods publicly.
The discussion thread can be found here.

As far as I know, all major tournaments except for Genesis 3 allowed the kind of mods Kadano offers. Locally, it will depend on your TO, though I most people seem to be fine with most mods. There are a few specific mods where people's opinions split.

Turbo buttons, macros and button remaps are almost universally banned of course.

 

[Synnett]

I was trying to find which big tournament didn't allow modded controllers, so it was Genesis 3.

The main issue currently is the availability of those controllers. Not everyone has them, and Kadano is the only one making them right now. It gives an edge over everyone else for those who own them.

I personally think they are alright, even tho the firefox angles mods are a bit of a cheat lol.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Swapping the c stick out for the control stick isn't a very heavy mod and I'd be surprised if anyone challenged you on that. Out of curiosity did you switch the stick boxes themselves or just the cap?

 

[Synnett]

Swapping the c stick out for the control stick isn't a very heavy mod and I'd be surprised if anyone challenged you on that. Out of curiosity did you switch the stick boxes themselves or just the cap?

It's just the cap, as both c-stick and control stick stickboxes are the same.

 

[-ACE-]

It's just the cap, as both c-stick and control stick stickboxes are the same.

One may shield drop or backdash better than the other, so for those that know how to switch them it can potentially be a good mod.

Most people don't mind minor mods. As you can tell from the old thread, I pretty much hate all modifications purposely made to either octagon gate, aside from shield drop notches, which I only dislike (I at least understand the reasoning behind adding shield drop notches). And yeah obviously turbo is wack lol.

 

[Synnett]

One may shield drop or backdash better than the other, so for those that know how to switch them it can potentially be a good mod.

Most people don't mind minor mods. As you can tell from the old thread, I pretty much hate all modifications purposely made to either octagon gate, aside from shield drop notches, which I only dislike (I at least understand the reasoning behind adding shield drop notches). And yeah obviously turbo is wack lol.

Well, it's pretty much random. Shield drops were a feature in the game, and they expected it to work by moving the stick down on the diagonal notches. But they kinda messed up and the angle to do it is just slightly above the notch on most stickboxes, so it never works. Shield drop notches are alright since they fix this issue in my opinion. Hell, it's a miracle if you find one that can shield drop correctly.

 

[-ACE-]

Hell, it's a miracle if you find one that can shield drop correctly

Quite an exaggeration. At this point I've used about 30 different controllers, and all the ones that sucked at shield dropping via the axe method were still capable of doing it. I guess if you consider 1 in 4 a miracle (odds in my experience for finding a smash 4 controller that shield drops well), then ok, but that's better odds than rolling a die. JP white controllers are better than sm4sh in general for shield dropping also. As for the old school controllers, yes it's a mixed bag, but every now and then you find a great one. The very first used silver controller I bought from eBay for $17 was a shield drop monster, I've had miom top 100 players offer $40 for it. I have a 2001 black controller that shield drops perfectly also. Used to have a purple that worked perfectly too but sold it.

As for the controllers that suck at it.... If you have one that likes to spot dodge, obviously the stick is going too low, so try putting your thumb on the side of the stick when you go go the notch, giving the stick sideways influence as you hug the gate. Conversely, if your controller likes to stay in shield, put your thumb on the top of the stick when you go to the notch, giving it downward influence as you hug the gate. Find the right speed going from notch to notch and your shield drop success rate will escalate quickly.

 

[Vorde]

I'm sorry if this shows my ignorance about the situation, but I am curious; how would having a turbo button make the game any easier, or techniques any better? Maybe Ness's dtilt or pikachu's neutral A would be better, but that's the only things that come to mind.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm sorry if this shows my ignorance about the situation, but I am curious; how would having a turbo button make the game any easier, or techniques any better? Maybe Ness's dtilt or pikachu's neutral A would be better, but that's the only things that come to mind.

Luigi recovery, rabid jabs (would make gentleman impossible), aerial'ing out of stun would require no timing, just hold the button and be fp, you could almost buffer any input without timing skill.

 

[Vorde]

All those make sense. Thanks for shedding some light on it

 

[TheJelly]

Swapping the c stick out for the control stick isn't a very heavy mod and I'd be surprised if anyone challenged you on that. Out of curiosity did you switch the stick boxes themselves or just the cap?

On this controller, only the sticks. I haven't personally noticed enough impact in switching stick boxes out.

 

[Synnett]

On this controller, only the sticks. I haven't personally noticed enough impact in switching stick boxes out.

They are actually the same... it's just that most of the time the c-stick is less damaged, more stiff.

 

[Onmitsu]

I honestly don't see the problem with customized controllers, other than turbo stuff and whatnot. That's like in table tennis saying you can only play with the store bought paddles instead of buying a custom one to use.

 

[-ACE-]

That's like in table tennis saying you can only play with the store bought paddles instead of buying a custom one to use.

It would be different if melee allowed it since day 1, but it's always been one particular way. The standard configuration is therefore the inherent standard for competition. To me it's weird introducing certain new things to gain a competitive advantage simply because there's no specific written rule against it, when there have never really been any concrete rules regarding controller modifications (at all). In sports, there are concise rules outlining what is allowed and what isn't. You might be able to bring a custom paddle to a table tennis tournament, but you can't use a corked bat in baseball. I just look at intent of the player, how much of an advantage it could potentially give them, and whether or not it goes against a competitive standard or rules. In this case I think the biggest problem is the lack of a clear and concise ruleset.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm of the opinion that any controller should be allowed, provided that no turbos or custom macros are present. If someone wanted to use a fight stick or keyboard, that should be okay. If a gamecube controller user wants to put notches on their control stick gate, thats okay too.


On another note, banning controller notches is a difficult rule to enforce. People only know my controller is notched after I tell them. Very rarely does anyone look that closely at my controller, and I find it unlikely the staff has time to check and verify all competitor's controllers.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Not a fan of mods. There are two main arguments in their favor I see whenever this topic comes up.

1. They help people get past technical barriers.
2. Good controllers are rare.

Being technically proficient is one of the skills tested in competitive Melee. I think it's ridiculous that people these days can bypass certain skills that others have to work for. Shield drops are the most common example. But there's a lot of other crazy **** you can do. You can raise the b button to make multi shines easier. You can add perfect wavedash notches and notches for specific angles.

This is about the point people like to bring up the economic and controller scarcity points. The thing is, there are still plenty of good controllers on the market. Smash 4 controllers are still in production, and your odds of getting a good one are fairly high. You might have to buy three or four at the most to find one that shield drops well. I've used about ten controllers so far and have played around with countless. I have yet to find one I couldn't shield drop on. What it all comes down to is that if you have the money to mod your controller, you have the money to find a decent controller.

Also you could enforce rules on controller mods by making it standard for TOs to inspect controllers during registration. Wouldn't be asking too much.

 

[Spak]

(In addition to what Pauer posted, here's another discussion on modded controllers from a few months ago.)

 

[-ACE-]

banning controller notches is a difficult rule to enforce. People only know my controller is notched after I tell them

You're not the first to say this, but I can't help but find it comical. It's very easy to see.

What is more important, and what makes the decision regarding legality much easier, is the fact that a notch isn't just a notch. A Kadano notch doesn't provide the same assistance as someone who puts gouges into the gate at ideal spots for specific angles. And you absolutely can't say "only Kadano notches are allowed", that would be ludicrous. But currently, everything is sort of allowed (according to what blur said on the g3 stream most major TO's want them banned, but most TO's overall either don't care or don't understand why the decision to allow notches disturbs the "even playing field" a competitor expects when he or she enters a tournament). It would be MUCH harder to regulate and enforce specific notch shape and size than it would be to outright ban notches. Of course, the easiest route is to allow everything, but I don't think that's the best course of action for competition when there is (was?) an inherent 14 year standard in place (octagon).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont know why a historical argument is valid in any way. Have people not had the ability to notch their controller from day 1?

20XX TE wasn't around when the game was released, but we use it in tournament. There has been a lot of discussion about bringing lagless setups to tournament. The greater community is definitely okay with improving hardware capabilities.

 

[Onmitsu]

I just have mine completely round and the rumble taken out

 

[-ACE-]

I dont know why a historical argument is valid in any way. Have people not had the ability to notch their controller from day 1?

Like I said, the problem lies in not having concise rules. This should have been banned from day 1, but no one had the foresight to predict that people would try to make wavedashing and other technical maneuvers easier instead of practicing. So we are now seeing the consequences of not specifically banning things that common sense should designate as unacceptable. How lovely.

Notches make an extremely technical game less technical, and thus, easier to play. Technical ability, physical stamina, certain aspects of game knowledge, and one's ability to mentally and physically multitask aren't tested for in tournament nearly as much if you have outside assistance aiding your ability to execute technical maneuvers. You have to remember, we're talking about competition. Some people practice, and some people would rather alter their controller to achieve similar results to the player who practiced, because they weren't good enough to achieve these results with a standard controller. Fairness does matter; an inconvenient truth for some.

Making any competitive game or event easier has the potential to take away from the game's depth. Those who are for notches are proposing that we test for a different skill set in tournament altogether.

Sveet, since day 1, people have had the option to put large gouges in the octagon gate to make perfect wavedashes and specific angles unmissable. Why do you think no one really does it?

A) No one has ever thought of it, and this ACE guy is a genius of innovation.

B) They feel it is unethical from a standpoint of fairness in competition.

C) They feel others would frown upon the obvious attempt at gaining a competitive advantage instead of practicing.

D) They don't understand melee well enough to see how deep notches would help their game.

What do you think?

Another thing about your "enforcing a ban on notches is too difficult" argument: Think about that pichu player that hacked the game to buff his character. I'd say that was, and still is, pretty damn hard to enforce. But he got caught. Food for thought.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't see how it makes it less technical, notches don't move the control stick for you. You still have to do all the inputs, notches just allow you to be confident in your control stick positioning.

What do you feel about changes to the gate that occur through normal use? I've seen plenty of people that have rounded control stick gates, simply from playing the game. Is that change "illegal"? If I created a notch using just the control stick and friction, is that ban worthy?

 

[-ACE-]

I don't see how it makes it less technical, notches don't move the control stick for you. You still have to do all the inputs, notches just allow you to be confident in your control stick positioning.

What do you feel about changes to the gate that occur through normal use? I've seen plenty of people that have rounded control stick gates, simply from playing the game. Is that change "illegal"? If I created a notch using just the control stick and friction, is that ban worthy?

Intent matters, and no natural wear will ever result in the player gaining an advantage similar to deep gouges cut into ideal locations for specific inputs.

How can you not see that it makes the game less technical? Have you never experimented with homemade deep notches? You can literally just slide the stick along the gate until it falls into place! You can make perfect wavedashing back and forth with luigi just as easy as dash dancing; you literally can't miss. The result is any luigi player capable of wavedashing being faster than top level Falcons on the ground.

It replaces knowledge of the location of the dead zone, your ability to find the perfect angle right next to the dead zone or any other angle, really the sky is the limit here. You can focus on more things since something that normally requires a relatively high amount of skill and focus is now guaranteed. Keep in mind, a notch isn't a notch. If you allow Kadano notches, you allow all modifications to the octagon gate. Being precise (while being fast) with the stick is the most prominent skill in melee, and deep notches dumb it down considerably.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well shield drop notches are just a fix for a factory mistake. Every controller should be able to shield drop at the 45° notches, but the vast majority are misconfigured. I could find a way to correct the same mistake without using sandpaper or a file, and instead use the control stick itself. It would take longer to create the notch, but obviously its possible to do.

What technical ability does it remove? Notches don't allow anything to occur that couldn't occur before. You still need to move your fingers at the same timings. Giving a notched controller to someone doesn't change their skill level at the game. In fact, most people need to practice with the notched controller before it is any use to them.

At best, notches make certain tasks marginally easier. If you learned it without notches, you know how to do it. If someone learned with notches, they know how to do it. This just seems like an argument of, "I had to learn it the hard way, so all the new players should have to do it the hard way too!" Who cares? Are you also against people who take the spring out of their trigger to make powershielding and lcanceling easier?

 

[-ACE-]

I never said anything about shield drop notches, not sure why you brought that up.

How are you using the "you'd still have to practice with a notched controller" argument when you have to practice with ANY controller regardless of configuration? You still have to practice sports if you take steroids and they're still banned. NOTHING makes you magically better. If you're entering a high jump competition, and your bar is lowered 3 inches compared to everyone else's, you still have to practice, and it's still unfair. This argument is a joke.

L-canceling is easy as ****. Powershielding still takes a large amount of skill regardless of the spring situation. Being precise with the stick though, is a much more important skill than these in the grand scheme of things. I guess you haven't experimented with homemade deep notches. Can you address any of my points instead of steering the argument in another direction? There is no relevant example that compares, so I don't fault you for failing to provide one (L-canceling and PS don't even come close). I seem to be able to address all of your points.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How are you using the "you'd still have to practice with a notched controller" argument when you have to practice with ANY controller regardless of configuration?

Thats my point. You say there is some sort of technical depth being lost, but there isn't.

Players still have to practice, and they still have to have the same knowledge of the game. Its not much different than making powershielding "easier" by taking the spring out. Notches do not make you any better at the game.

 

[-ACE-]

Thats my point. You say there is some sort of technical depth being lost, but there isn't.

Players still have to practice, and they still have to have the same knowledge of the game. Its not much different than making powershielding "easier" by taking the spring out.

When perfect wavedashing back and forth becomes as easy as dash dancing, you don't have to practice nearly as much. Having to practice much less (and get incredible results) is a huge advantage. The "you still have to practice" argument applies to anything, including macros, turbo, etc. Even that hacking pichu player had to practice, lol. There is no relevance.

How do people have to know the same knowledge of the game? Instead of having to know the perfect wavedash angle, something tells you where it's at! LOL! Then it guides you into the spot, and keeps you there! Even if you have no accuracy with the stick whatsoever, are super nervous and have shaky hands, you're fine! You'll be able to move the stick faster, knowing that you'll successfully hit the angle due to the deep notch. How does making powershielding slightly easier even compare to having more speed and accuracy with the control stick? Simply put, it doesn't.

Notches do not make you any better at the game

So are you saying they make you worse? Is that why so many people wanted (and paid upwards of $180 for) a Kadano controller? LOL. Don't kid yourself. It's a substitute for practice. And homemade deep notches are much worse.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In the game of being the first to execute 100 perfect wavedashes, a notched controller is ban worthy. However that isn't the goal of the melee, and executing a perfect wavedash is basically irrelevant to winning.

Game knowledge isn't knowledge of your controller. Game knowledge is knowing how your character works, how the opponent's character works, how the stages work. If I played a Luigi who perfect wavedashed every time, that wouldn't change the outcome of our match because I expect him to perfect wavedash anyways.

Overcoming your controller isn't a skill we test in tournament. Players are welcome to bring any configuration they want, provided there aren't turbos or macros. Players can use playstation controllers, keyboards, and even the new fight sticks they are developing for smash. None of these have the same deadzone issues that effect gamecube controllers, and none of these players will have to learn the same finger motions we had to learn on a gamecube controller.

Having notches does not make you a better player, any more than removing the trigger spring makes you a better player. These are just configuration preferences that exist on a player-to-player basis.

 

[-ACE-]

In the game of being the first to execute 100 perfect wavedashes, a notched controller is ban worthy. However that isn't the goal of the melee, and executing a perfect wavedash is basically irrelevant to winning.

Notches can be made deep enough to make the perfect wavedash unmissable. As in, better success rate than top players. You must really not understand this game if you think something has to give you a free win to be ban worthy. You should really think of some arguments that don't also apply to turbo, macros, and hacking. Obvious cheating doesn't guarantee a win either.

Game knowledge isn't knowledge of your controller. Game knowledge is knowing how your character works, how the opponent's character works, how the stages work. If I played a Luigi who perfect wavedashed every time, that wouldn't change the outcome of our match because I expect him to perfect wavedash anyways.

Call it what you want. Players that don't use notches have to learn the angle right next to the dead zone for maximum length wavedashes. Players with a deep notch don't need to learn this. In fact, they don't even need accuracy, and thus, they can be much faster. It eliminates the need for knowledge of the location, accuracy, speed, and the ability to keep the stick in that location. I can tell you have no experience with what I'm speaking of, which is comical considering your confidence on this issue.

Overcoming your controller isn't a skill we test in tournament.

YES, it absolutely is. The dead zone is a great example, that even Kadano has described as a nuisance or a hurdle. It is an issue you must learn to overcome, or you can create something that will do it for you.

Players can use playstation controllers, keyboards, and even the new fight sticks they are developing for smash

Where? I've been active in NC, FL, SoVA, and MD/VA. I've attended several nationals, countless tournaments, and I've never seen this. I don't agree with it either.

Having notches does not make you a better player, any more than removing the trigger spring makes you a better player. These are just configuration preferences that exist on a player-to-player basis.

No. It's apparent that you don't understand that being fast and accurate with the control stick is more important than being able to hit R a tenth of a frame sooner. News flash, there is no comparison between the two. You conveniently ignore most of what I have to say anyway. It's just too bad you're a TO.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Obvious cheating doesn't guarantee a win either.

What cheat? The player must still execute 100% of the inputs. No inputs are done for the player. At worst they are using "training wheels".

Overcoming your controller isn't a skill we test in tournament.

YES, it absolutely is. The dead zone is a great example, that even Kadano has described as a nuisance or a hurdle. It is an issue you must learn to overcome, or you can create something that will do it for you.

You can only claim that is true if we allowed absolutely 0 mods. Spring removal, button shortening, etc. Those things all count as controller barriers, and serve to make the game "easier" to execute. The community seems to already have made a stance on them.

And I still hold that notches are gradually created on a controller due to regular use. After doing 1000 wavedashes, your control stick gate will be worn in where you wavedash, creating a comfortable groove that you will consistently hit. Thats why using a brand new controller feels weird: even though your thumb knows where to move, the controller isn't worn in that position yet.

Where? I've been active in NC, FL, SoVA, and MD/VA. I've attended several nationals, countless tournaments, and I've never seen this. I don't agree with it either.

Look it up, its happened a number of times this year. This is a new product that is coming out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM-NKXS1m2I

It's apparent that you don't understand that being fast and accurate with the control stick is more important than being able to hit R a tenth of a frame sooner. News flash, there is no comparison between the two. You conveniently ignore most of what I have to say anyway. It's just too bad you're a TO.

Your entire issue with notches is that you learned the hard way, and don't like that new players don't have the same hurdles to overcome.

 

[-ACE-]

What cheat? The player must still execute 100% of the inputs. No inputs are done for the player. At worst they are using "training wheels".

In that sentence I meant any obvious cheat. I was pointing out the main flaw of your argument of "it isn't an automatic win, so it isn't ban worthy" (paraphrased)

You can only claim that is true if we allowed absolutely 0 mods. Spring removal, button shortening, etc. Those things all count as controller barriers, and serve to make the game "easier" to execute. The community seems to already have made a stance on them.

Some tournaments don't allow notches and there are no written rules. That's why it gets discussed.

And I still hold that notches are gradually created on a controller due to regular use. After doing 1000 wavedashes, your control stick gate will be worn in where you wavedash, creating a comfortable groove that you will consistently hit

No. LOL. 1000? Did you mean 100,000+? Come on man, the plastic doesn't get worn that easily. When you wavedash, the stick is pressed against the gate, there is very little friction compared to sliding the stick along the gate. I've owned way too many controllers, some for 5+ years. This just doesn't happen. Extreme cases carry little relevancy.

Look it up, its happened a number of times this year. This is a new product that is coming out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM-NKXS1m2I

Interesting. That certainly makes some things easier also, but at least it would require a good amount of practice.

Your entire issue with notches is that you learned the hard way, and don't like that new players don't have the same hurdles to overcome.

No. I don't like it because it takes certain aspects of this game and dumbs them down. I don't like the intent behind the making of the changes: to make the game easier in order to achieve a competitive advantage, because standard melee was just too hard. No one has ever provided me with a good reason why free perfect wavedashes are legitimate. At least there is actual reasoning behind shield drop notches. And it is just sad to me that most people can't understand the magnitude of the advantage deep notches can give, and don't have the foresight to understand the slippery slope of legality. Hey, nice try though.

 

[>Metα<]

Changing the c-stick to another control stick shouldn't be too bad.

Shield drop notches? A bit questionable..

It really depends on the tournament and the TO's view and rules on controller modifications.

 

[Zargasaurus]

Changing the c-stick to another control stick shouldn't be too bad.

Shield drop notches? A bit questionable..

It really depends on the tournament and the TO's view and rules on controller modifications.

IDK about whether the players would be alright with something like that, but good points...
I personally would not agree with a different kind of controller with different/extra buttons and the like on it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Interesting. That certainly makes some things easier also, but at least it would require a good amount of practice.



No. I don't like it because it takes certain aspects of this game and dumbs them down. I don't like the intent behind the making of the changes: to make the game easier in order to achieve a competitive advantage, because standard melee was just too hard. No one has ever provided me with a good reason why free perfect wavedashes are legitimate. At least there is actual reasoning behind shield drop notches. And it is just sad to me that most people can't understand the magnitude of the advantage deep notches can give, and don't have the foresight to understand the slippery slope of legality. Hey, nice try though.

There is no competitive advantage. Notches do not allow you to do anything that you couldn't do without notches. It is a personal configuration choice, no different than shorting your Y button to make multishines easier or removing the spring for a quicker trigger press.

If you allow alternate controllers (keyboards, fight sticks, classic controller), then I don't see how you justify not also allowing non-macro modifications to gamecube controllers.

it is just sad to me that most people can't understand the magnitude of the advantage deep notches can give

For one, its equal access. Anyone is welcome to configure their controller in the way they see best. If you think its the absolute best thing to do, then do it. Go win a tournament if you think it is so unfair that you will surpass better players with it. My bet is that you will beat the same people and lose to the same people.

 

[Onmitsu]

I still relate it to customizing a table tennis paddles. If pips are legal, custom controllers should be too. If you don't know what pips are, they basically make it to where you don't need to worry about another players spin.

 

[-ACE-]

There is no competitive advantage. Notches do not allow you to do anything that you couldn't do without notches.

Again, you do not have any experience with homemade deep notches, but you say they should be allowed. When they make the success rate of executing perfect wavedashes unmissable (saying "virtually" just seems inaccurate), that is a super-human success rate. If you make the notches correctly, and you are average at wavedashing, everyone on Earth will miss more perfect wavedashes than you. It's literally just as easy as dash dancing. This argument doesn't work. Not all notches are the same.

It is a personal configuration choice, no different than shorting your Y button to make multishines easier or removing the spring for a quicker trigger press

Are steroids a personal nutrition choice? Remember, everything that has ever been achieved by an athlete on steroids can also be achieved by a clean athlete. Is this a solid argument for steroids being fair?

In a vacuum, I don't agree with the shortened button mod either, as it is also a substitute for practice, and was created with the intent of achieving a competitive advantage. But IRL, in game, that is far less of an advantage compared to instantly achieving increased accuracy (which ultimately leads to increased speed) with the control stick. The difference will be obvious to anyone that understands this game.

If you allow alternate controllers (keyboards, fight sticks, classic controller), then I don't see how you justify not also allowing non-macro modifications to gamecube controllers

Agreed. At this point we are starting to test in tournament for one's ability to alter controllers and make the game less technical more than ever before. We are introducing the idea "why work hard to strengthen my weaknesses, when I could alter my controller to hide them?" No one will use a configuration that makes the game more difficult. They want to make the game easier for them to play in order to gain an advantage. This may seem harsh or extreme, but it's true.

For one, its equal access. Anyone is welcome to configure their controller in the way they see best.

All pitchers in baseball have access to Vaseline, but putting it on the ball before a pitch in order to give the batter a disadvantage is illegal. Remember, my initial statement was that the biggest issue is a lack of clear-cut rules. This is why we discuss this issue. Not everyone knows how to properly notch a controller, nor does everyone have the money to spend on a notched controller. Now, entering a tournament and competing on an even playing field requires either some controller knowledge and the skills to properly modify one, or the extra money necessary to buy one. Even if you don't buy one, you will have to purchase tools, and hope you don't ruin your controller front piece on your first try. The "equal access" argument is not exactly accurate because of this issue.

Go win a tournament if you think it is so unfair that you will surpass better players with it. My bet is that you will beat the same people and lose to the same people.

After all these years, do you still not realize that melee is like the butterfly effect? Have you not figured out that landing ONE extra grab because you were able (and had the confidence due to your newfound success rate) to land that perfect wd oos can win games and sets? How about if you can land several more? What if you can limit SD's from virtually never missing Firefox angles? Do you not realize that SD's often change the outcome of games and sets? Do you not realize that perfect wavedash back vs non-perfect wavedash back is often the difference between being hit in neutral vs being safe? There are tons of examples. To people that understand this game, it's no secret that making small improvements in one's game can yield significantly better results. But this is irrelevant. If you cheat on a test and get a D+, you're in just as much trouble as the guy who got an A by cheating. Whether the unearned advantage gives you the win or not, it should still be banned.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Again, you do not have any experience with homemade deep notches, but you say they should be allowed.

Again, you make this claim that isn't true. At this point I wonder if you have read any of my posts at all.

When they make the success rate of executing perfect wavedashes unmissable (saying "virtually" just seems inaccurate), that is a super-human success rate. If you make the notches correctly, and you are average at wavedashing, everyone on Earth will miss more perfect wavedashes than you. It's literally just as easy as dash dancing.

Missing the angle is practically impossible (though still happens occasionally), but that doesn't guarantee a person the perfect wavedash. They still must jump, move their control stick to the proper position, and then airdodge on the first airborne frame. The controller notch does no work for the player, it only acts as a guide.

Are steroids a personal nutrition choice? Remember, everything that has ever been achieved by an athlete on steroids can also be achieved by a clean athlete. Is this a solid argument for steroids being fair?

To people that understand this game, it's no secret that making small improvements in one's game can yield significantly better results. But this is irrelevant. If you cheat on a test and get a D+, you're in just as much trouble as the guy who got an A by cheating. Whether the unearned advantage gives you the win or not, it should still be banned.

You keep calling it a cheat without any argument to classify it as a cheat. All the comparisons you make are bad analogies. If you want to compare to something, compare it to what is banned by the FGC or what is banned in Smash.

In smash there are currently two groups of mods:

Group 1, Legal:
Anything purely cosmetic, stick box swapping, button shortening, trigger modifications, controller notches*.

Group 2, Banned:
Turbos, macros.

The only reason a mod/feature is currently banned is if it performs multiple inputs for the player. Quality of life mods are not banned, and being an abritrarily stronger QoL improvement is not enough reason to move controller notches to Group 2.

Agreed. At this point we are starting to test in tournament for one's ability to alter controllers and make the game less technical more than ever before. We are introducing the idea "why work hard to strengthen my weaknesses, when I could alter my controller to hide them?" No one will use a configuration that makes the game more difficult. They want to make the game easier for them to play in order to gain an advantage. This may seem harsh or extreme, but it's true.

The game exists beyond the controller barrier. Surprisingly, the most technical player in the world is not the #1 ranked player. Strategy, patience, dedication, persistence, perseverance, creativity, hard work ... these are things that matter in terms of winning the game.

And I have to point out that the industry trend is towards customized pads and fight sticks. If those custom controllers are legal, then controller notches are a no-brainer.

Not everyone knows how to properly notch a controller, nor does everyone have the money to spend on a notched controller. Now, entering a tournament and competing on an even playing field requires either some controller knowledge and the skills to properly modify one, or the extra money necessary to buy one. Even if you don't buy one, you will have to purchase tools, and hope you don't ruin your controller front piece on your first try. The "equal access" argument is not exactly accurate because of this issue.

All of that information exists and is public. There are tutorials on youtube created by Kadano himself. You can purchase the service from an expert if you are unable to do it yourself. Is playing a technical Fox not "equal access" because newbs haven't figured out how to deal with it or copy it? Is it cheating to pay an expert for 1on1 lessons?

 

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At this point I wonder if you have read any of my posts at all.

I have literally responded to every one of your points in every post individually....

The only reason a mod/feature is currently banned is if it performs multiple inputs for the player.

A notch prevents you from sliding up along the gate as well as sliding down along the gate. If it is deeper you can be quite shakey, pressing on the stick in several directions and the stick won't move from the ideal spot. Therefore, it does several things for you. This is easy to see. Your own analogy of training wheels isn't far off really, accept falling off a bike is much more rare than making one of the mistakes in melee that deep notches prevent.

The game exists beyond the controller barrier. Surprisingly, the most technical player in the world is not the #1 ranked player. Strategy, patience, dedication, persistence, perseverance, creativity, hard work ... these are things that matter in terms of winning the game.

Utterly irrelevant.

All of that information exists and is public. There are tutorials on youtube created by Kadano himself. You can purchase the service from an expert if you are unable to do it yourself. Is playing a technical Fox not "equal access" because newbs haven't figured out how to deal with it or copy it? Is it cheating to pay an expert for 1on1 lessons?

It's just bull**** that you have to go buy tools and do research to alter your controller just to keep things fair nowadays. Even if you find the holy grail, a controller that can shield drop and backdash with 119% consistency, you're at a disadvantage going into a tournament because people have controllers that DO THINGS FOR THEM. How you miss the point is beyond me.