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Mini Mafia Game Thread | Newbies are welcome! | Town wins Gheb's game | Zen next to host!
- Thread starter ~ Gheb ~
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I hate alignment conversions....but I wanna try a cult set-up.
/in.
/in.
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
And then the cultist is lynched D1.
I know the concept has it's flaws lol, but I would like to try it once for better or worse. A mini is the perfect setting.
It'll be an open setup and people know it going in so that eliminates a small amount of the "ugh alignment changing" hopefully.
I've just got to run the numbers real quick to see how many people makes for the most reasonable game.
It'll be an open setup and people know it going in so that eliminates a small amount of the "ugh alignment changing" hopefully.
I've just got to run the numbers real quick to see how many people makes for the most reasonable game.
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
Max players allowed - 2 vt
1 town cult identifier
1 cultist
That's what I think would be best. The cult identifier would be cultable too. Must lynch all cult members to win.
No matter what you're gonna have some ****ed numbers for town cuz of the max cap for minis being small.
1 town cult identifier
1 cultist
That's what I think would be best. The cult identifier would be cultable too. Must lynch all cult members to win.
No matter what you're gonna have some ****ed numbers for town cuz of the max cap for minis being small.
I'm thinking it will either be a pretty vanilla setup with a comparison cop and townies vs a cult leader (6v1) and we all just admit that it'll be a little wonky numberwise for cult at the start as usual
OR
we can go whole hog and try something experiment-y where potentially the cult starts with two members and recuits every other night but lynches don't kill town only cult (which will probably make for a fairly high number of days to the game)
Yo' folk's choice of how much you want to put up with, I've got flavor to match for both styles.
OR
we can go whole hog and try something experiment-y where potentially the cult starts with two members and recuits every other night but lynches don't kill town only cult (which will probably make for a fairly high number of days to the game)
Yo' folk's choice of how much you want to put up with, I've got flavor to match for both styles.
Well how does the setup you suggested work exactly then, how does the mafia roleblocker play into it
I've actually put some thought into the second one and it isn't as bad as it sounds, important part being there is no leader to speak of so any cult can recruit every other time as long as they're alive, it basically just makes the game "hit two cultists in a row at some point to win" with a temporary clear when you miss on the alternate days. But there's no D1 solution of killing the only cultist. (calculations pending)
It's honestly that sort of non-kill mechanic that I wanted to get a balance feel for by running a cult mini to decide if a concept I have for a DeathNote Lie Detector-like experimental in the future is sound or not
EDIT: Doing the math, it's actually more like "three strikes you're out" for town. If at any time they choose incorrectly three times overall they've lost. Town can win in as little as two phases if they're amazing, otherwise the game will drag out and require them to hit cult an additional time for every failure, capping at 4 correct choices total versus 3 mistakes.
It might be balanced with a comparison cop or shrink to help get the game started on the right foot early, otherwise it's probably an exhausting battle against probability that's too much to ask for out of a town.
I would fault no one for telling me to shove it on that setup idea, but it would be interesting to me personally so I had to at least voice it as a possibility. I have no qualms running either the 6v1 or the 5v1v1 Gheb variant assuming that's of proven better balance.
I've actually put some thought into the second one and it isn't as bad as it sounds, important part being there is no leader to speak of so any cult can recruit every other time as long as they're alive, it basically just makes the game "hit two cultists in a row at some point to win" with a temporary clear when you miss on the alternate days. But there's no D1 solution of killing the only cultist. (calculations pending)
It's honestly that sort of non-kill mechanic that I wanted to get a balance feel for by running a cult mini to decide if a concept I have for a DeathNote Lie Detector-like experimental in the future is sound or not
EDIT: Doing the math, it's actually more like "three strikes you're out" for town. If at any time they choose incorrectly three times overall they've lost. Town can win in as little as two phases if they're amazing, otherwise the game will drag out and require them to hit cult an additional time for every failure, capping at 4 correct choices total versus 3 mistakes.
It might be balanced with a comparison cop or shrink to help get the game started on the right foot early, otherwise it's probably an exhausting battle against probability that's too much to ask for out of a town.
I would fault no one for telling me to shove it on that setup idea, but it would be interesting to me personally so I had to at least voice it as a possibility. I have no qualms running either the 6v1 or the 5v1v1 Gheb variant assuming that's of proven better balance.
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For the record If people go for the complex idea, it'd likely be:
Comparison Cop
4 VTs
vs.
2 Even Night Cultists
Lynches can only kill cult members.
It's damn complicated mafia majority math behind the setup though, so be my guest on checking my work.
Once again, up to run vanilla cult or 5v1v1 if people truly hate the idea; so tell me what you think and we'll go with what the majority is comfortable playing.
Comparison Cop
4 VTs
vs.
2 Even Night Cultists
Lynches can only kill cult members.
It's damn complicated mafia majority math behind the setup though, so be my guest on checking my work.
Once again, up to run vanilla cult or 5v1v1 if people truly hate the idea; so tell me what you think and we'll go with what the majority is comfortable playing.
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#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
- Joined
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- 3,739
So do I have to say "/in to host" if I want to host?
#HBC | Nabe
Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
/in Dietzy
Kk, I'd like to hear them.Will post my thoughts on the setups later.
I simply want to run a cult game of any variety as best I can in a 7 man really.
Suggestion #1: 1 Cult Leader vs 1 Comparison Cop & 5 Vanilla Townies
A vanilla-heavy approach is alright but I feel like the absence of a mafia faction [and therefore of the NK] makes this game lame and unfun because the ideal play for townies would be to wait and get recruited. Coparison Cop is also not very interesting in this setup because two factions isn't that much and doesn't require a lot of deduction. I greatly dislike the fact that a setup of 7 players can possibly end on the very first day.
Suggestion #2: 2 Even Night Cultists vs 1 Comparison Cop & 4 Vanilla Townies
Has nearly the same issues as suggestion #1. The comparison cop is somewhat more interesting but the setup just doesn't make sense as a whole. Two recruiters of the same alignment yet in opposing factions? How is an endgame scenario supposed to work? Which Cult will endgame the other? What if both cult leaders target the same player? What if the cult leader recruits the cult member of the opposing cult faction?
Suggestion #3: 1 Mafia RB vs 1 Cult Leader vs 1 Comparison Cop, 1 Shrink, 1 Doctor, 2 Vanilla Townies
At least one mafioso is a must-have imo. I chose roleblocker because he can limit the cult leader's recruitment choice and mess with the town PRs. Shrink is also highly recommended as town would get torn apart without him. Doctor and Comparison Cop are both good roles to have in this setup and synergize well with the powers of the Mafioso and the Cult recruiter.
Ultimately, this is all my personal opinion based on years of experience. I approve of the attempt to implement a Cult and want the setup to be as good as possible with 7 players. I think anybody who wants to join the game should feel free to voice their opinions as well.
A vanilla-heavy approach is alright but I feel like the absence of a mafia faction [and therefore of the NK] makes this game lame and unfun because the ideal play for townies would be to wait and get recruited. Coparison Cop is also not very interesting in this setup because two factions isn't that much and doesn't require a lot of deduction. I greatly dislike the fact that a setup of 7 players can possibly end on the very first day.
Suggestion #2: 2 Even Night Cultists vs 1 Comparison Cop & 4 Vanilla Townies
Has nearly the same issues as suggestion #1. The comparison cop is somewhat more interesting but the setup just doesn't make sense as a whole. Two recruiters of the same alignment yet in opposing factions? How is an endgame scenario supposed to work? Which Cult will endgame the other? What if both cult leaders target the same player? What if the cult leader recruits the cult member of the opposing cult faction?
Suggestion #3: 1 Mafia RB vs 1 Cult Leader vs 1 Comparison Cop, 1 Shrink, 1 Doctor, 2 Vanilla Townies
At least one mafioso is a must-have imo. I chose roleblocker because he can limit the cult leader's recruitment choice and mess with the town PRs. Shrink is also highly recommended as town would get torn apart without him. Doctor and Comparison Cop are both good roles to have in this setup and synergize well with the powers of the Mafioso and the Cult recruiter.
Ultimately, this is all my personal opinion based on years of experience. I approve of the attempt to implement a Cult and want the setup to be as good as possible with 7 players. I think anybody who wants to join the game should feel free to voice their opinions as well.
You misunderstand the intention of having 2 cultists to begin with in the second setup. They're aligned and working together for the same cult faction, there simply isn't a leader system for recruitment: instead the concept is any remaining cult can recruit during Even nights as if it were a mafia nightkill in a pool of goons. (That being to prevent the game from literally stopping once the cult leader is killed, as it'd be impossible to mislynch under the mechanics I proposed)
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
1 mafia cult leader 
I'm still not impressed because it's hardly an improvement compared to the first setup and I still consider the absence of a mafioso to be problematic.
It prevents cult from losing D1 while not making it unwinnable for town. That's the entire intent of that variation really. Comparison cop simply because I find a straight "Yes or no" cult finding role lame.I'm still not impressed because it's hardly an improvement compared to the first setup and I still consider the absence of a mafioso to be problematic.
Ok but there has to be a reasoning for that. What makes the cultists acting as a alignment changing body instead of a killing force as town's obstacle change the fundamentals of the game versus a game where a mafia is also present in the mix. The most I can see from it is it's disheartening knowing it's possible to personally win without finding anyone due to an alignment change whereas with a mafia they at least have one hurdle to overcome either way, is that what you're saying?
I mean I'm literally running this as a reason to explore cult mechanics and decide if they'd ever be workable in an experimental or if they should be left to the realm of non-serious games, so this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to discuss.
I mean I'm literally running this as a reason to explore cult mechanics and decide if they'd ever be workable in an experimental or if they should be left to the realm of non-serious games, so this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to discuss.
Fwiw, my next small game in the "official" queue is a semi-open setup with a cult in it. It's definitely not a joke.
Can't explain though why it doesn't work without a mafia. I've never really thought about it because it wasn't needed. All I can say about it is that it greatly limits the motivation of players - mainly the townies - to actually do anything.
Can't explain though why it doesn't work without a mafia. I've never really thought about it because it wasn't needed. All I can say about it is that it greatly limits the motivation of players - mainly the townies - to actually do anything.
Yeah, that's about what I could see for drawbacks. Just checking in case you had some other insights on why that would be. Also best of luck on that cult inclusive game
Pretty much it's up to the motivations of the group who signs up, I'll run either. If they think they can keep motivated and not play intentionally anti-town with straight Town vs Cult then I'm up for it, otherwise we can run the mafia inclusive style.
Pretty much it's up to the motivations of the group who signs up, I'll run either. If they think they can keep motivated and not play intentionally anti-town with straight Town vs Cult then I'm up for it, otherwise we can run the mafia inclusive style.
So... my computer died. Posting from a new one.
Disappointed how the last game ended. I would like to think that the fact I was pressing for Ran to vote would have given him enough to tilt the vote in my favor, but alas and alack, it was not meant to be. The take away for me is something I've known about my mafia play for a long time: Even when I have enough evidence to convict someone, I have trouble getting people to follow me. Not sure if I need to change my play somehow or just wait around for people to figure out that I'm trustworthy.
As far as the cultist game goes... eh... I've never played one to see how it would turn out, but I see the inherent flaws in the setup. A basic rule for designing mafia games is that the number of lynches for town victory should equal the number of mislynches for a town loss. So if it takes 1 lynch to win the game, then it should take 1 mislynch to lose. If it takes 2 lynches to win, then it should take 2 mislynches to lose.
The trick with cultists is that you can increase the number of required lynches while decreasing the number of required mislynches. I think the even-night mechanic definitely helps tip the balance back in town's favor, but it still creates a situation where it could easily take 3 correct lynches for a town win, but only 2 mislynches for a town loss.
Disappointed how the last game ended. I would like to think that the fact I was pressing for Ran to vote would have given him enough to tilt the vote in my favor, but alas and alack, it was not meant to be. The take away for me is something I've known about my mafia play for a long time: Even when I have enough evidence to convict someone, I have trouble getting people to follow me. Not sure if I need to change my play somehow or just wait around for people to figure out that I'm trustworthy.
As far as the cultist game goes... eh... I've never played one to see how it would turn out, but I see the inherent flaws in the setup. A basic rule for designing mafia games is that the number of lynches for town victory should equal the number of mislynches for a town loss. So if it takes 1 lynch to win the game, then it should take 1 mislynch to lose. If it takes 2 lynches to win, then it should take 2 mislynches to lose.
The trick with cultists is that you can increase the number of required lynches while decreasing the number of required mislynches. I think the even-night mechanic definitely helps tip the balance back in town's favor, but it still creates a situation where it could easily take 3 correct lynches for a town win, but only 2 mislynches for a town loss.
I did the math, and it's always 3 mislynches for a Town loss in the Even Night, no townkill setup. Town can win in as few as 2 lynches if they get lucky early, but for every mislynch they attempt they need another correct lynch in total to win due to cult recruitment. (so if they miss twice off the bat they have to lynch correctly 4 times overall to pull out the win, which is a bit tough but doable. If they miss once, they have to succeed three times overall. It's hard but they have a cop and a one day clear every time they miss on odd days. Most importantly to me though the setup stops cult from losing D1 no matter what. Whether that sounds too hard to people or not I'll leave to you guys to decide)
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Ah, I was missing the no townkill part. I'm not sure how I'd feel about having no killing abilities in the game at all. What exactly happens to people who are correctly lynched? Are they cured? Can they be recruited again?
I could see a game like that running way too long and encouraging players to just wait out recruitment for victory.
I could see a game like that running way too long and encouraging players to just wait out recruitment for victory.
Gova
I'm goin' for it!
Yeah, I'd advise against a cult game.
That's exactly what happened in Hentai Mafia 2.
That's exactly what happened in Hentai Mafia 2.
Cult members would die, town members would be cleared and not die (until such a time cult could recruit them).
And yeah that's the problem we're discussing atm, the potential lack of motivation if people just wait for recruitment.
And yeah that's the problem we're discussing atm, the potential lack of motivation if people just wait for recruitment.
Hentai II was kind of a troll game though and doesn't represent how to balance a game with a Cult in it. Hando's Getting Schooled Mafia is a much better example, though not quite perfect. Had the presence of the Cult been known from the start and had a Shrink been in the game then it would've been a well balanced affair. I definitely think Dietz should go for it.
#HBC | ѕoup
The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 6,865
I think we'll most likely go with the 5v1v1 suggestion and I'll reserve things like the no-kill mechanic for an experimental where that can be number and role balanced better than it can be in a 7 man (calculations on worst case scenarios for 5v1v1 pending)
I suppose I will /in
Awesome! That's 3 so far I think. And we'll probably get more now that we have the setup more solidified
1. Red Ryu
2. Nabe
3. Xatres
4.
5.
6.
7.
@
#HBC | Gorf
: Personal message from me to you: you're gonna want to be in on this one for flavor alone
1. Red Ryu
2. Nabe
3. Xatres
4.
5.
6.
7.
@
#HBC | Gorf
: Personal message from me to you: you're gonna want to be in on this one for flavor alone- Status