mindgames?

[DuKe™]

i need real help on mindgames with marth especially against captain falcon or fox can anyone help me, i need something insane

 

[Shai Hulud]

I like to mix up wavedashing with dashdancing in various ways to make Marth move in unpredictable patterns. You can also vary the length of your wavedash, foxtrot away only to turn around and launch a FAIR to someone's face, etc.

This is a ridiculously expansive topic =\

 

[Dark Sonic]

Mix up your approaches. Start off with something that seems repetative and immediatly change when you see you're opponent catching on. Dashdance => Pivot => F-tilt? WTF was that OMG did he just tilt me? Then you can mix it up and grab them because they're more likely to sheild or spotdoge to compensate for your supposed style (which should be really hard for them to figure out if you're doing it right.) I really can't give you that many examples because mindgames should be more spontanious and change depending on the mindset of the opponent. Just play normally and pay more attention to your opponent than yourself. You should learn you're opponents style and ajust yours to match, or in this case counter, it.

 

[Schweppes]

Lol, DuKe.

 

[leviathan_]

Make your own mindgames. I recommend making a list of them, for yourself of course. Don't just wavedash and dash-dance mindlessly. Try to fake your opponent into a lag as well. Mindgames are strategy, not simply random movement.

Mindgames don't always come in the form of movement. They are also empty SHFFLs and attacks too. Seriously, there is a mammoth amount of combinations you can form to create mindgames. Try them out.

 

[Pariah]

I mindgame by being random.
Not mindgaming seems to be a great mindgame, actually. Be random.

 

[AS Money]

OMG for capitan falcon once you realize that the knee is an electrical attack switch mains to pikachu because the electrical attack will be not very effective

 

[Brightside6382]

Get close but not to close then F-smash and at the same time scream "MINDGAME!". The louder you scream "MINDGAME!" the better your mindgames will be.

 

[shadydentist]

Mindgames? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seriously, though, mindgames is just kind of a way of saying "play smart." You don't need mind games, what you need are some techniques that are effective against those characters.

Chainthrow fox. Use dtilt and fsmash to keep him from coming back to the edge. Upthrow to fsmash works at around 60 percent. Spacing is very important, because his close-range moves (shine) is faster than anything Marth has.

Against falcon, take advantage of his horrendous recovery. Um... try not to get stomped, or grabbed, or forward-B'd because those tend to lead to knees.

If all else fails, wavedash backwards to forward smash works sometimes.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Mindgames? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seriously, though, mindgames is just kind of a way of saying "play smart." You don't need mind games, what you need are some techniques that are effective against those characters.

Chainthrow fox. Use dtilt and fsmash to keep him from coming back to the edge. Upthrow to fsmash works at around 60 percent. Spacing is very important, because his close-range moves (shine) is faster than anything Marth has.

Against falcon, take advantage of his horrendous recovery. Um... try not to get stomped, or grabbed, or forward-B'd because those tend to lead to knees.

If all else fails, wavedash backwards to forward smash works sometimes.

You have no idea how stupid you sound.

In high level play,everyone has technical skill,and it comes to the point in which technical skill doesn't determin the victor...it's mindgames that do.

Mindgames are more than just playing smart.It is reading the opponent,predicting,and spontainiaty.

What use use having technical skill if you cannot predict your opponents movements or even land an attack,because without mindgames,you are preety much runing right into the opponent who can easily shield grab you.

I think I will call this"Technical>Mindgames" argument the "Zelgadis Effect".

 

[shadydentist]

The main gist of my above post was that the term "mindgames" is often misused. It's useless to tell someone "you need more mindgames" or "mindgames > technical skill." In both cases, the statement is vague and unhelpful. You can't tell someone "use more mindgames," you need to give advice that will hopefully help them realize what they were doing wrong.

I don't need to hear the speech about why mindgames are important. I realize that being able to read your opponent and avoiding predictability is key to winning games. But technical skills allow you more freedom in your game, and places fewer restrictions on your style of play.

Please, I'm only trying to help. Perhaps you should do the same.

 

[Brightside6382]

You have no idea how stupid you sound.

In high level play,everyone has technical skill,and it comes to the point in which technical skill doesn't determin the victor...it's mindgames that do.

Mindgames are more than just playing smart.It is reading the opponent,predicting,and spontainiaty.

What use use having technical skill if you cannot predict your opponents movements or even land an attack,because without mindgames,you are preety much runing right into the opponent who can easily shield grab you.

I think I will call this"Technical>Mindgames" argument the "Zelgadis Effect".

Wow I gotta admit this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Wtf tell me how the term "mindgame" and "playing smart" are any different. Both are vague as hell and have no tangible definition. Predicting, reading, and spontaneity all easily fall under the category of "playing smart".

Shadydentist actually said something pretty smart and you shot him down with stupidty, gj sir.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wow I gotta admit this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Wtf tell me how the term "mindgame" and "playing smart" are any different. Both are vague as hell and have no tangible definition. Predicting, reading, and spontaneity all easily fall under the category of "playing smart".

Shadydentist actually said something pretty smart and you shot him down with stupidty, gj sir.

Can you tell me anything else I said wrong rather than a comparison to to "Mindgame" and "Playing Smart".

And FYI.Mindgames really have no solid definition what-so-ever,so they do have their obvious diffirences,so comparing it to"Playing Smart" Contradicts your arguement.

By the way,I was trashing him for saying that you don't need mindgames,which is false.

 

[shadydentist]

I'm sorry, it seems I was unclear. When I said you don't need mindgames, I meant that asking someone for mindgames is vague and unhelpful. What he should have been asking for is strategies against those characters. I did not mean to imply that mindgames were unimportant. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm sorry, it seems I was unclear. When I said you don't need mindgames, I meant that asking someone for mindgames is vague and unhelpful. What he should have been asking for is strategies against those characters. I did not mean to imply that mindgames were unimportant. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I understand,I apologize as well.You are correct,there are not standard mindgames(Dash Dacing?Lol),trying to copy others mindgames really isn't effective at all.

 

[Cactuar]

You don't need mindgames. Just swing your sword. And abuse your ridiculous grab range. You will do just fine.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You don't need mindgames. Just swing your sword. And abuse your ridiculous grab range. You will do just fine.

I have a feeling that you are serious. XD

 

[Switchblades]

Might just be me, but does anyone else have trouble mindgaming a laser happy Falco? -_-

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Falcos do give me a hard time, but they're not impossible.
Dash attacking at the right distance can catch them in the middle of their SHL animation, and you slide right under the shot, leading to up tilts, a grab, aerials, or possibly even an Fsmash, depending on how they DI the hit.
Chain grabs work wonders, and if you can't follow their DI, try and predict their tech/roll if they miss their tech. After you throw them, if you miss the catch, try running after them and shielding right in front of them. If they attack as they get up (pressing A to get up) you can shield grab them. If they're smarter and they just stand up (pressing L or R to get up w/o a direction) then you may get punished for trying a grab, so be sure you watch for it.
Other than that, edge guarding is EVERYTHING. D-tilts over the ledge while you crouch, c-stick to an Fsmash if they come up too high, and always be ready to hop up and spike if they come back close and F-Fox.
A lot of it is reading your opponent, and that comes easier if you play predictably for a while, then start to switch it up. Nothing throws someone you play often with for a loop more, than if you deviate from your favored style of play.
I.E., if you LOVE to D-air spike, and always go out for it, your opponent may expect you to try and edge guard them that way, and will consequently DI their recovery to try and sweetspot the ledge. To follow up this mindgame, wait on the ledge and short hop to make them think you're lining up to intercept with a spike, then as they approach, short hop and b-air so you turn around, fall to the ledge and edge-hog.
This is of course, just a suggested example of mindgames, in the case of how to play a falco. My strats aren't perfect, so if I suggested something incredibly stupid please ignore it.
=D

 

[Cactuar]

I have a feeling that you are serious. XD

Why wouldn't I be? That's pretty much what I do, and I do very well with it... *points at North-East Rankings*

As for that whole bit of vs Falco: If they are over the edge and try to recover, just stand there. And swing your sword.

If they are out kinda far, they will either
A1) Fb to the ledge, or over you. If you see they are going over you, it's best to just crouch or spot dodge, then chase their lag with a grab -> whatever grab stuff you are comfortable with. If they go for the ledge, just jab. They will drop, and you can go for a dair or fsmash. Fsmash is the better choice, just sit there and start a charging fsmash when they start their Upb, and you will have time to react to them either riding the stage up or going straight up. Jab is god vs Fb.

A2) They could do a shortened Fb to the ledge, and your jab will miss. Retreat and reapproach. If you see they get into a habit of doing shortened Fbs, you can adapt your strategy as you see fit.

B) Drop and Upb to the stage. Most Falco players try to reserve this option for when it is needed, rather than just doing it. When they start doing this instead of Fb to the stage, whenever you knock them off stage, run off the stage and aerial them. Marth can recover from very far away, so it's not hard to just gimp a falco player most of the times you knock them away from the stage.

B2) You could just stand at the edge and Fsmash it over and over, but this will give them the option to ledgetech and return to the stage, as they can reach the ledge using fb immediate after teching faster than you recover from fsmash (or fb through you while you are stuck in lag).


If they are good, they will double jump sweet spot the edge, and it's pretty safe for them. Don't make yourself vulnerable by trying to fsmash the edge. As they jump up, do a dtilt in case they mess up and go too high, then immediately wavedash back into tipper range of the ledge, but don't actually fsmash, as that leaves you vulnerable to ledgehop double lasers into whatever. Upon them reaching the ledge via either a well sweet-spotted Up-b or a sweet-spotted DJ to the stage, vs Falco just reverts back to an on-stage fighting game. Until you swing your sword and knock them off again that is.


Basically: Just swing your sword. And abuse your ridiculous grab range. You will do just fine.

Edit: I'll update later with a very simple version of what I do vs lasers later if you guys want.

 

[Adi]

Your entire argument is based around the fact that falco is off the edge. I'm sure no half-decent marth player has trouble edge-guarding anyone. Getting the falco off the edge is the trouble though ;D

 

[Cactuar]

Your entire argument is based around the fact that falco is off the edge. I'm sure no half-decent marth player has trouble edge-guarding anyone. Getting the falco off the edge is the trouble though ;D

What arguement? He posted something about his edgeguard vs Falco. I posted my edgeguard vs Falco.

 

[Adi]

My bad I'm sick and I'm practically falling asleep as I'm typing this. Sorry if I came off as an ***.

 

[Cactuar]

It's cool duder.

 

[Hydde]

thos lasers are a real trouble.

IMO against Falco you need to be patient and wait for an openning or a mess up. The key here is to survive the onslaught until he messes up, if you go recless , u can get *** kicked in no time.

Look for a grab, a chainthrw... and when u have the falco over 60% , upthrw and chase him to whatever direction with a nair... always works. After that, cross ur fingers and get him out the stage ASAP.

 

[ArcNatural]

I am curious to your strategies against lasers Cactuar. I recently played players that have played in MLGs and were simply much better than I was. When you play people who are much better in approaches it is easy to see how fast your tech skill breaks down. When I play my brother's Falco its pretty easy to either chaingrab him or any other type of variation. But I played a very techical retreating laser Falco that made it very hard for me to keep my approach against him. It was because of them I learned how good waveshielding was, which in turn made me a better player. It is just a pity I can't play them more often. So please let me know your strategies to dealing with a Falco who constantly will do retreating rshl then reapproach.

 

[Cactuar]

Okay. Just a heads up, my vs laser strategy involves PSing and aggressive shield advances. You won't be able to just read this and use it unless you play against a decent Falco to practice it, as the computer will not help you.

When I first explained this to M2K a few months back, he said it was too hard to use realistically. But he has recently started using it :D

Some basic things to learn before using this:

Running powershields: Very useful, not that difficult.

Standing powershields: Gives you time to start moving and build momentum.

Learn the shield stun of a laser. You need to know this by heart. The smaller the time you are stuck in your shield after it gets hit with a laser, the better.

Learn to WD out of your shield immediately after getting hit by a laser.

Learn basic spacing. This sounds stupid, but I'm serious. You are going to want to spend most of your time within about 2-3 sword lengths of Falco.

Smash DI: It's good for you.


OK.



A lot of this strategy has to do with abusing Marth's approach speed and pressure game.

First off, get in proper spacing. Sometimes, depending on the counterpicked level, this will be easy or hard. That's your problem

I spend most of my time vs Falco about 2-3 Full Dash SHL's distance away. Being this distance gives you time to react to quick approaches from the Falco, and maintains decent pressure on them.

When you move, you will probably be getting lasered. Use that timing you've been working on to try to PS lasers, if you can't, it doesn't matter. You should be WDing out of the hit lag and keeping your movement fluid.

If the Falco likes to retreat and SHL, you can follow by using that WD out of shield thing I mentioned earlier. WD out of your shield and immediately dash. You can shield out of dash instantly, so as soon as they laser, try to PS the laser. If you don't get the PS, don't worry about it. They will see that you have approached and:

1) Retreat and SHL again. Whatever, reapproach. Marth's objective vs Falco is to get them closer to a side of the stage.

2) SH and try to do something (aerial, laser). Immediately jump out of your shield and fair them. Keep good spacing and you won't take a hit from anything.

3) Full Jump and try to do something (aerial, laser, escape). Immediately jump out of your shield and fair them. Falco can't do too much from standing that close to you.

4) They stand there and shield. Immediately jump out of your shield and fair them. You will hit the shield. But you have good spacing, so you won't get shield grabbed. Or, if you are good with timing, do a late fair hitting them with the hilt of the sword. This will bait a shield grab, but you have enough time after L-cancelling to run through them before the grab's hitbox will come out, letting you DD back and grab them. If they start doing this a lot, you can WD out of the laser instead and go straight to grab.

5) They stand there. Maybe they will try to jab you? Whatever. Adapt to this however you like.




If the Falco is aggressive, you are doing pretty much the same thing to them, aggressively push into their lasers with your shield.

I'm writing this in a hurry, so I've definitely missed a lot. Ask questions so I can address them.

 

[RCD]

if someone could help me i have a real problem against fox and i can never beat him, any time i want to start something he just sidesteps and grabs me and starts u airing the crap out of me im not to worried about getting out of the uair because usually i DI out of it, i dont want to approach the fox at all like Ijust try and shuffle fairs untill he come up to me but he just lasers and before i know it i have liike 40 extra damage, i dont know what to do? Cactuar or anyone can someone HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Adi]

Just ignore fox's lasers and rush to him, when you get close enough fake him out (Wavedashing, dashdancing, ect..) and then punish him. If you know his first reaction is sidestepping just wait it out and then punish him as he gets out of his dodging animation. Fox's SHL isn't a big deal just beware of the drillshine O.O

 

[Anomic_Punk]

When you get grabbed and U-thrown, most often Fox will go up for the U-air, right?
Marth's F-air solves the problem, when timed right, and you're already DI-ing away from it anyways, you said.
I like using the tactic from the Mission Briefing video, wavedashing out of your shield and using neutral A to rack up some damage, and perhaps get a grab. If you are pressuring Fox with neutral A's directly in front of him, he's likely to shield. Grab! ^_^
Chain throws rock fox's socks. When he starts to DI out of them, either chase his DI and grab again, or u-tilt him. when he finally gets away from you (assuming you can chain throw for a while and u-tilt a few times) he should have somewhere from 40-70 damage, easy KO bait for a tipper.

</3 Drillshines

 

[JustOwninDaFINALBOSS]

Get close but not to close then F-smash and at the same time scream "MINDGAME!". The louder you scream "MINDGAME!" the better your mindgames will be.

Stop revealing our midwest secrets!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Try diffrent Dancing Blade techniques. Most of the time, you tend to use one sort of patern for the move. Avoid that. Counter at times, and use diffrent types of grabs and moves. That's basically what mindgames are about... You can't learn them by reading a forum, you must learn them yourself.

 

[TGM]

Duke, you have seen me play and u actualy have played me. do what i do=TGM combo!!!


WAHAHAHHAHAHA


but seriously, chain grabs to tilt or smash is needed. OVER B combos are needed and countering on ledge is needed(it works,,,,,,trust me).



spacing is by far the most important.