Social Mii Swordfighter Social: Guide Hype

[Pegasus Knight]

@ Trieste SP I have completed the data you requested. Please note I do not have a large enough sample to determine fractional damage so these values may not be perfectly accurate but they are close enough to be a starting point.

EDITED later same day: Training Mode was used for all the data below.

Spoiler

Lab Controls:
Version - 1.0.8 Wii U, NTSC/North America build
Mii Used - Guest Mii, so presuming 50% height and weight by default
Opponent - Mario
Stage - Gaur Plain Omega Version.
Equipment/Items - None

Damage:

Jab 1 - 4%
Jab 2 - 3%
Jab 3 - 5%

Dash Attack - 6% (Sourspot) / 10% (Normal). Sourspot is Tip of Sword for this attack, everywhere else is Normal!

Forward Tilt - 12%
Up Tilt - 7%
Down Tilt - 8%

Forward Smash - Uncharged 14% (Normal) / 15% (Sweetspot 1) / 16% (Sweetspot 2). Charged 19% (normal) / 21% (Sweetspot 1) / 22% (Sweetspot 2). Normal is most of the blade. Sweetspot 1 is very slightly behind the tip. Sweetspot 2 is the extreme tip.

Up Smash - Uncharged 17% (as 4%, 3%, 3%, 7% for 4 hits). Charged 23%. This attack has a blindspot contrary to animation! U-Smash will NOT hit Mario if he is Standing behind you on level ground, even though the sword's animations make it look like he would be hit.

Down Smash - Attacks front, then rear; opponent unlikely to be hit by both. Uncharged 12% (Front) or 15% (Rear). Charged 16% (Front) or 21% (Rear).

Neutral Air - 8%

Forward Air - 11% (as 3%, 3%, 5% for 3 hits)

Back Air - 14%

Up Air - 16%

Down Air - 9%. Some tests infrequently yielded 10% instead but could not reliably reproduce this. (Multiple weak hits, then a stronger finishing hit. I've lost the exact numbers on this, sorry)

Pummel - 3%

Up Throw - 5%

Forward Throw - 6%

Back Throw - 6%

Down Throw - 4% (as 2%, 2% over two hits)

Final Smash - Approx 48% to 54% (across many, many projectiles that do approx. 8% each. Precise damage hard to obtain even in lab conditions)

Gale Strike - Multiple hits, each dealing approx. 2% damage. Damage Varies By Distance, Losing Damage Over Distance Traveled. Average damage varies by character (Knockback may toss them out of additional hits). Mario tends to take 4-6%, while Bowser tended to take 6 to 11% due to being heavier and thus taking extra hits.

Shuriken of Light - Damage Varies by Distance, GAINING Damage Over Distance Traveled. Maximum is 8.5% (displasy as 8. Determined by 2 max-distance hits causing 17% damage instead of 16% as would be the case with two 8.0% hits), Minimum is 1% and NO HIT STUN at point-blank distance.

Blade Fury - Charge-capable move. Lowest charge does 9%. Fully charged does slightly above 23% (many very weak hits followed by 16% finisher, but doing 2 of these inflicted 47% damage to Mario so it's slightly more than 23% but not quite 24% either.).

Airborne Assault - Charge-capable move, damage variable but author unable to determine what causes the variation. Typically gets 7% uncharged, but has gotten 10% a few times. Typically gets 16% fully charged.

Slash Launcher - Charge-capable move. Uncharged does 6%. Fully charged does 10%.

Chakram - Has variable firing modes, a single-hit 'smash toss' or a 'hovering boomerang' multi-hit. Both do approx. slightly more than 6%, seems to be 6.5% (multiple hits of any combination of these two firing modes caused 13%, though individual uses of the move displayed 6%.)

Stone Scabbard - 13% (as 5%, 3%, 5% over 3 hits).

Skyward Slash Dash - Multi-hit move, damage varies by placement. Typical damage was 10% (over multiple 1% hits followed by a 5% finishing hit).

Hero's Spin - Chargeable move. 14% uncharged. 19% fully charged.

Hero's Spin (Air) - 14% if all hits connect, as 4%, 2%, 2%, 2%, and a 4% finishing hit.

Blade Counter - Counter, Minimum damage is 8%. Multiplier is approx. 1.2x to 1.21x. (Methodology: Minimum determined by Countering a point-blank Fox laser, multiplier determined by countering an uncharged Bowser f-smash and comparing to an uncountered one. Uncharged Bowser Fsmash at point blank did 23% to Swordfighter, Countered one did 28% to Bowser.)

Reversal Slash - 6% and Projectile Reflect (Multiplier 1.48x) and Opponent Turned Around (akin to Mario's Cape). (Methodology on Multiplier: Reflected a Samus FULLY CHARGED Charge Shot and compared it to an identical Charge Shot that was allowed to hit. Swordfighter took 25% when hit, Samus took 37% from reflected shot.)

Power Thrust - Damage varies by distance, losing damage over distance traveled. Max range hit is 8%, close range hit is 10%.

End of data

 

[Trieste SP]

Wow, thanks!

I'll be comparing these to the ones I got.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Sure thing. There are probably minor variations in the damage... I tested these moves 3-4 times, but I probably do have decimal values somewhat wrong. Still, these are close enough that if your data comes even close to these you can be pretty sure you're accurate.

 

[Trieste SP]

Alright, I've checked out the data and it checks out. It's relatively accurate other than some values that are changed in the recent patches.

I'll be compiling all the data into the table but for now I'll be making one for default Swordfighter. I'll be making the thread later on.

Now, the only thing left is to clean up some of the clutter these boards have like I've noticed there's too many stickied threads, some threads that need some updating for clarity and some other minor stuff.

Oh, one last thing I need to do is find a way to attract more people to this place. The Mii's generally don't have many mains but I know there's a lot of people out there who is interested in this character. Like learning the MU's and moveset data that I'm making.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Tournament inclusion is holding us back in that regard. Nobody's particularly interested in a character that, Trela aside, has shown few results and few venues to GET those results in. Anther's Ladder restricts us to 1111, and Stone Scabbard is straight up awful. Tornado is matchup specific. I would much rather have the Quick Draw Side B over the current default Aerial Assault.

Still, 1.0.8 made our character decent. Not good, I don't believe that, but decent. You're no longer losing at the select screen for picking Swordfighter. If we can just get the character's design opened up to allow full move lists in competitive venues, things will be going quite well for us.

 

[GS3K]

@ LiteralGrill here's how far I got on the swordfighter drawing.

Didn't forget, just extremely busy with filling out paperwork/preparing for college and still have a lot to go through. This isn't completely finished, all I have to do is add some shading and fix a few things.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Actually, no. Let me amend my earlier remarks: "Also, bad players who are bad and should feel bad have been influential in crying enough to get the Miis placed under very heavy restrictions and this drives away people who might play them."

If one can't deal with optimized Swordfighter or Gunner, one might just suck at Smash in general. If you can't deal with optimized Brawler... well, I completely understand but Zero Suit Samus does all the same crap he does and in some cases does it even better so I'm not sure this is a valid reason to get rid of him. Especially not when one of the more prominent players of Brawler volunteered for and requested a less optimized version of the character to be tournament legal just to make things more fair.

I really wish more tournament organizers and ladder maintainers had told them to go kick sand when they cried about this sort of thing. It's frustrating to watch how Amazing Amarphos (sp?) and JohnNumbers worked so hard with us to get the logistical problems solved, and now so-called 'competitive players' can't cope with three more matchups to learn for some stupid reason.

 

[GS3K]

*sigh* I'm going to go on a long winded rant, but I kinda need to in order to get it all out of my system before I take off from here.

If the miis or customs get banned/limited post-evo, I might have to call it quits. People tried to make it as easy as possible to make sure they don't take long to set up only for it to be tossed away because of some BS honor code ("Miis shouldn't be allowed to use anything besides 1111 customs off because that would give them an unfair advantage and would be giving them preferential treatment") and people too lazy to take the time to actually learn the matchup (mii brawler jank complaints). The reason being is I can't bother to try and switch mains again only for them to either not be legal or nerfed to uselessness in the future, and lately sm4sh has been the source of many headaches for me, so a break is going to be necessary.

They were designed to be used with customs, otherwise they would have been given the Palutena treatment and restricted to 1111 in everything by the game and not as a ruling. The amount of time it takes to set up one isn't even that long, so what gives?

Again, the only thing I see holding them back is this stupid sense of "honor" and "fairness". So what they have an option nobody else has, it's not like they become Shiek/Diddy/Rosalina/ZSS slayers or anything because they have access to their best moves. Hell, this wouldn't even be an issue if everyone had their customs from the get-go in the first place. Mii brawler is janky because of helicopter kick? Learn to combat it instead of complaining about it, and for the love of everything sacred, don't go to smashville. Swordfighter gets some improvements, as does gunner, but nobody cares about that, they only care about brawler killing everyone at 50% with one move. They don't care that the miis aren't dominating customs-on tournaments, they only care about helicopter kick killing at 50%.


Like everyone else with janky customs, he's not an "I win" button and only those who play him enough know how to properly use him will win.

That brings me to another point, customs aren't even that bad and it disappoints me that people are quick to jump the gun and want them banned after evo. If you don't like customs, fine, you're free to dislike them. I'm indifferent towards them, but don't be one of those people that looks at an "infinite" or zero to death video performed in training mode on an unmoving ai and think that customs are busted and must be banned for that reason. They don't become "I win" buttons and fraud players will not get far with them. Can't we just wait for things to unfold before we jump to conclusions?

Maybe I'm not getting something, but that's where I stand.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Man, if Helicopter kick was all it is then they could just ban Helicopter Kick. This still leaves Piston Punch, which is at least a decent move. Not great, but decent and playable. I say this as someone who used to run mid-mid Brawler: I would be willing to accept a ban on Helicopter Kick so long as I get Piston Punch. If "kills at 50%" is that big a deal, ban Helicopter Kick and ban Zero Suit Samus on the same basis.

Otherwise let it rock.

 

[Antonykun]

Man, if Helicopter kick was all it is then they could just ban Helicopter Kick. This still leaves Piston Punch, which is at least a decent move. Not great, but decent and playable. I say this as someone who used to run mid-mid Brawler: I would be willing to accept a ban on Helicopter Kick so long as I get Piston Punch. If "kills at 50%" is that big a deal, ban Helicopter Kick and ban Zero Suit Samus on the same basis.

Otherwise let it rock.

tbh i would wish helicopter kick to get its knock back nerfed while also giving brawler less knockback growth on down throw and a few more knockback buffs on moves like smash attacks or Back air that way Helicopter kick is still a good damage converter but not the lengendary "EW this guy won't let me play on smash ville!!!1"
it really sucks that APEX Brawler is almost a decent character with that mobility but he lacks a lot of things namely safe combos and kill options that don't reach the real of "Why aren't I playing Duck Hunt?"

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

I've noticed that stone scabbard is pretty a pretty effective kill move if you use near the edge, you'll be able to grab the ledge, but you opponent wont. just a tip from me.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Smashville either needs to be burned to the ground or needs better music. I am damn tired of hearing it, and at this point would favor the rise of any character that stops us from taking every single match ever to that infernal stage. When I want to listen to what may as well be Minecraft music, I have a copy of Minecraft and will simply play that.

I've been participating in an argument (It doesn't deserve the dignity of being called a 'debate') with others in another thread about whether Miis should be allowed their full move list options in a Custom Moves Off environment. Some of the arguments presented against it blow my mind. One person said Miis have default moves since an Event Mode stage forces them to use 1111... nevermind that Miis ignore Custom Moves OFF rules switch in multiplayer modes. If we're going to use single-player modes to glean insight on multiplayer, then I want Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and the entire Master Fortress stage legalized for tournaments. I want the Evo 2015 Grand Finals determined by who gets a better score in Trophy Rush. Yes, this is Reductio Ad Absurum but when your opponents in the argument are grasping that far for straws... well.

The latest is some nonsense about an 'incomparable advantage.' No duh. Nearly every character on the roster has some kind of incomparable advantage. Rosalina gets a puppet. Robin gets a 'combo breaker/grab rescue' from discarded books and swords. Wii Fit Trainer gets to heal herself by attacking and can attack both sides of herself simultaneously with most of her moves. Little Mac gets armor on his smashes. Mega Man can move while using certain projectiles. Miis get tweakable move lists. Somehow it is only the last of those gimmicks that is such a problem to them.

It angers me that we're probably not going to make much headway on this character competitively so long as people like them, willing to go to such extreme lengths to stop others from having fun, have their way.

 

[Antonykun]

Smashville either needs to be burned to the ground or needs better music. I am damn tired of hearing it, and at this point would favor the rise of any character that stops us from taking every single match ever to that infernal stage. When I want to listen to what may as well be Minecraft music, I have a copy of Minecraft and will simply play that.

I've been participating in an argument (It doesn't deserve the dignity of being called a 'debate') with others in another thread about whether Miis should be allowed their full move list options in a Custom Moves Off environment. Some of the arguments presented against it blow my mind. One person said Miis have default moves since an Event Mode stage forces them to use 1111... nevermind that Miis ignore Custom Moves OFF rules switch in multiplayer modes. If we're going to use single-player modes to glean insight on multiplayer, then I want Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and the entire Master Fortress stage legalized for tournaments. I want the Evo 2015 Grand Finals determined by who gets a better score in Trophy Rush. Yes, this is Reductio Ad Absurum but when your opponents in the argument are grasping that far for straws... well.

The latest is some nonsense about an 'incomparable advantage.' No duh. Nearly every character on the roster has some kind of incomparable advantage. Rosalina gets a puppet. Robin gets a 'combo breaker/grab rescue' from discarded books and swords. Wii Fit Trainer gets to heal herself by attacking and can attack both sides of herself simultaneously with most of her moves. Little Mac gets armor on his smashes. Mega Man can move while using certain projectiles. Miis get tweakable move lists. Somehow it is only the last of those gimmicks that is such a problem to them.

It angers me that we're probably not going to make much headway on this character competitively so long as people like them, willing to go to such extreme lengths to stop others from having fun, have their way.

well i ca hear tortimer's island medley on smashville so i'm fine with the music myself though Smashville is a pseudo walkoff so i try to avoid that stage as my characters
as for the mii argument the naysayers are ridiculous on what **** they'll hide behind to avoid dealing with Miis

BAN*MII cuz they have customs
no those are alternate moves not variations of moves like customs
BAN*MII cuz Helicopter Kick
why not just ban Helicopter Kick or better yet not play on smashville
BAN*MII cuz muh MU
now you're being lazy
BAN*MII cuz Event Mode
BAN*PALETUNA cuz trophy rush
BAN*MII cuz this is our game and we should be making the interface decisions
[facepalming intensifies]

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Pretty much. It still stuns me the kind of mental gymnastics they're going through in order to avoid dealing with this.

The characters are on the select screen, easily enabled, and ignore the Customs Off rule. This ought to be the end of the matter and they should have to grow up and learn the match-ups.

Some of us have tried to address concerns of 'fairness' by voluntarily adding a nerfed Brawler to the Custom Moves Project build list. Like Dapuffster, I agree that Tiny Brawler with Helicopter Kick is kind of ridiculous (no more so than Zero Suit Samus' early kills, mind you). So I played along and moved to 50-50 size Brawler. Even took it a step further and switched to Piston Punch instead of Helicopter Kick. Still not good enough for them, they'd rather hide behind nonsense like 'purity' and saying that making the Miis stop being absolute garbage is a 'incomparable advantage.' If Helicopter Kick is truly a problem, I am willing to compromise and ban Helicopter Kick (but I want problematic Custom Moves on other characters banned too, if we're going that route).

Whatever. I plan to keep arguing this in any venue I can. Anther's Ladder needs to go back to open design. I'd play on the Nintendodojo ladder but their website won't let me sign up for some bizarre technical reason. Tournaments need to open up to new ideas rather than restricting more and more options.

Watching people trot out debate rules for the argument about Miis is pathetic. This isn't academia, it's a damn video game. Let me have fun playing as not-nerfed Professor Layton the Mii Swordfighter, even in optimized form he's not a problem to decent players.

 

[Antonykun]

welcome to the complaining about mii restrictions thread
I just want to be in a world where i can grenade launch without getting banned

 

[Trieste SP]

welcome to the complaining about mii restrictions thread
I just want to be in a world where i can grenade launch without getting banned

This reminds me so much of the time I first used Mii Swordfighter in tournament. People were johning left and right.

Back then even I wasn't sure how to use him and somehow I placed decently with him. After that day people were more interested in Miis. One person even switched mains to Mii Brawler. It was probably my doing that made people more interested in customs. Although, they don't really keep up with how the metagame is at the west. But that is a life I'll probably never live again since I went to college.

Back to topic, Miis really shouldn't be restricted because it can really limits their potential in tournament play. That is never a good thing IMO.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It would be wonderful if everything in Smash was decided by logic and reason, however politics and personal feelings often decide a lot more. Perhaps it would be worth really hunting down the largest TOs who host majors and get them all sign an agreement to not limit the Miis in play. Convincing the folks who really make the big decisions (since everyone copies the big events) would go a long way towards seeing Miis not cut down.

A word of caution though, don't hope for variable sized Miis. The ultimate smash 4 ruleset poll showed how intensely people want Miis to be a default size. Considering guest Miis are also far easier logistically I'd say if we get the chance to use all of their moves at majors we should accept the compromise.

 

[Trieste SP]

It would be wonderful if everything in Smash was decided by logic and reason, however politics and personal feelings often decide a lot more. Perhaps it would be worth really hunting down the largest TOs who host majors and get them all sign an agreement to not limit the Miis in play. Convincing the folks who really make the big decisions (since everyone copies the big events) would go a long way towards seeing Miis not cut down.

A word of caution though, don't hope for variable sized Miis. The ultimate smash 4 ruleset poll showed how intensely people want Miis to be a default size. Considering guest Miis are also far easier logistically I'd say if we get the chance to use all of their moves at majors we should accept the compromise.

Ah, Capps how are you doing today?

People who have major influences like top players or TOs really can help people change the way they perceive some hot topics. Although, we may never see many or at all any of these people defending Miis because so little people actually play or even bother with them.

If Mii Sizes are the compromise than I'm fine with it. I can totally understand why people want the Miis to be default size. Although, I'd prefer it to not be that way.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well I'm doing okay @ Trieste SP , managed to survive the 4th of July despite lighting up tons of stuff and even breathing fire. YAY EXPLODING THINGS!

But yeah, some major TOs and top players could really do some tyhings for Miis, and it'd be awesome to see some folks lobby to them to try and make sure Miis don't end up suffering and players can actually start investing in Miis more as a main.

 

[Antonykun]

It would be wonderful if everything in Smash was decided by logic and reason, however politics and personal feelings often decide a lot more. Perhaps it would be worth really hunting down the largest TOs who host majors and get them all sign an agreement to not limit the Miis in play. Convincing the folks who really make the big decisions (since everyone copies the big events) would go a long way towards seeing Miis not cut down.

A word of caution though, don't hope for variable sized Miis. The ultimate smash 4 ruleset poll showed how intensely people want Miis to be a default size. Considering guest Miis are also far easier logistically I'd say if we get the chance to use all of their moves at majors we should accept the compromise.

tbh now that i see the design of each character i am fine with no size modifications if it means all moves are allowed for the miis
Brawler already has a good mobility, Swordfighter is basically a fatty (even though he's incredibly floaty for a fatty), and gunner is designated around keepaway and the only character to be designed like that and have bonkers mobility is Toon Link

 

[Pegasus Knight]

SmashCapps, that's a fairly good idea. Who do we reach out to? I'm willing to reach out with polite, reasonable letters asking for their help and understanding.

As far as variable size goes... that's what the Custom Moves Project is for. There are QR Codes you can use to get the community's ideal size enabled very quickly. I would like to keep at least that; 25/0 Size Swordfighter is notably better than 50/50 Swordfighter.

Still, if I had to I could probably live with 50-50 size but free move selection as a compromise.

I just want something resembling the proper form of these characters. They're one of the things I enjoy most about Smash 4 and it hurts to realize I can't use them in most venues, even online ladder play, due to this 1111 garbage.

(EDIT: Actually I'll do one better and write up that letter now. With minor changes, it can be used to reach out to your TO of choice. People can use it as they see fit, thus.)

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'm double-posting, just this once, because I have specific new content to add and want to make sure Mii players see it; I'm soliciting feedback for a letter we might be able to use to ask TOs to let us have more freedom with Miis.

This comes in two versions, a letter for physical-location TOs and another for online ladder/event hosts. Pick whichever one is appropriate for who you're contacting. Be sure to replace a few words in this, or you'll submit an embarrassing letter with mistakes like "(your name here)" left unfilled!

(Edited at 9 PM CST of July 5 2015 to remove a 3DS related paragraph)

Tournament - Physical Location version

Spoiler

Hello (organizer name here),

I'm (username here), and contacting you to ask for help and consideration on a matter at your event. Specifically, the details of how to allow Mii Fighters in play. They have much to offer the game and would be a fun addition to your tournament, but in order to make it happen we, the Mii Fighter players, would have to come to some understanding with you. Could you look over the following points, based on discussions among the Mii Fighter mains on Smashboards?

Our Goal: We want to be able to play as Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner at your event with a reasonable amount of freedom in how they are created. This can be done without harming game balance, and without undue strain on tournament logistics. This message is meant to lay out things we would consider acceptable, what advantages your event gains from it, and our attempt to resolve common concerns about the Miis. If after reading this request you are open to the idea, we invite you to stop by our character forums (links at the end of this message) and talk with us, or even offer an open declaration in your tournament rules that you will permit the Miis.

Special Move Selection: Currently, many events force all three Miis to stick with a '1111' movelist, which is the first selectable move for each category of special move. On the surface this sounds fair, 'if nobody else can have customs, why should you', but this misses important points. The game outright allows Miis to keep their chosen moves even if the Custom Moves rules-switch is set to Off, showing that they are not meant to be considered 'Custom Moves', but rather 'selectable moves' on a character that can best be described as "Build To Order."

This is, in fact, their unique point. Where Rosalina gets a puppet character (Luma), Mega Man gets a projectile he can use while moving, and Little Mac gets Armor on his Smash Attacks... the Miis' special trick is that they are straightforward fighters whose exact fighting style is up to their player. If they want a little less recovery in return for a little more kill power, or vice versa, they can have that. If they want to focus on vertical kills instead of horizontal ones, that is their option. As these characters otherwise fight in recognizable ways, this ability to tweak the Mii Fighter to your tastes remains a fair option and is in no way unfair; tweaking is their unique advantage just as the characters mentioned above have their own special gimmick that makes them memorable and exciting.

On Balance Concerns: Even in their optimized forms, Miis are not disruptive to play. Even the best Swordfighter and Gunner builds possible have nothing truly abusive to them. Mii Brawler's 'One Inch Punch' kill-move glitch has been patched out, and while it is true that Brawler can score early horizontal KOs around 70% with proper move and stage selection... Zero Suit Samus can do the same thing vertically, and ZSS has not proven to be a problem in tournament play so far. The Miis are fair characters now and their inclusion will attract fans of these three to your event, encouraging more variety in character selection.

On Logistics and Character Size: We're sympathetic to the idea that enabling Miis can add a little more time taken up in an already busy event. Mii players aren't here to make your event run over-schedule, and we have done extensive research to make sure we can get our character activated on any tournament station with minimal disruption. We even have multiple methods of doing it to best suit your event's needs!

If your event is willing to accept content from the Custom Moves Project ( http://smashboards.com/threads/official-custom-moveset-project-summer-2015-edition-evo-sets.395721/ ), then we have QR Codes you can scan in to each tournament system that provide ready-made Miis for each class of Mii Fighter. This requires a few minutes of pre-tournament setup to scan the codes on to each system, but once that's done we can make a Mii Fighter in under 30 seconds. That's less time than some 'button checks' or 'hand warmers' take. This half a minute isn't even a 'per round' thing... once we have our characters on that tournament station, we'll use them for the duration of the event. In other words, our time spent on Mii Fighter logistics comes closer and closer to zero as the tournament progresses! We won't cause your event to go off-schedule, and will do our best to hurry through the Mii Fighter creation menus.

If you're not open to using the pre-made Miis (which admittedly vary in size by class; Gunner and Swordfighter mains prefer 25% Height/0% Width, and Brawlers prefer either 50-50 or 0-0), we're willing to use Guest Miis to go with the default 50% Height/50% Width size the game provides. This is not our ideal solution since 25/0 Miis are notably more fun for Swordfighter/Gunner and the Brawler community is split on which size to use, but we are willing to accept this compromise so long as we're allowed to do Special Move Selection freely; getting away from '1111 Moves only' rules is vital to us, since Miis limited to 1111 simply aren't tournament viable, utterly lacking in design synergy and cohesion; they have terrible recovery, terrible kill moves, and bad projectiles because their move lists were never meant to stick to '1111' unless the player truly wanted that.

While this message tries to address the most common concerns, we'd love to talk with you if you have other questions! We enjoy our Mii Fighters, and want to be sure you're truly comfortable adding them to your event. Please visit us at the following forum links if you have something to ask, and we'll work things out!

Swordfighter: http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-swordfighter-social-a-little-more-bairable.401541/

Brawler: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...u-and-mii-can-talk-mii-fighter-social.324305/

(The Brawler thread used to be the 'all three Miis' thread, so don't mind the odd labeling on the first page.)

Gunner: http://smashboards.com/threads/gunner-style-discussion.357770/

I realize this is a little extra work to do in an event that has already taken up so much of your effort, but hope that you will hear us out. We're all devoted fans of our Mii Fighters, and truly want to play them at your tournament. Would you be willing to work with us to come up with a fair arrangement?

Thank you for your time!

- (Username here)

Online play/ladder version

Spoiler

Hello (online play host/ladder organizer name here),

I'm (username here), and contacting you to ask for help and consideration on a matter in your (tournament/ladder, select whichever applies to who you're speaking with). Specifically, the details of how to allow more freedom for the Mii Fighters in play. They have much to offer the game but in order to make it happen we, the Mii players, would have to come to some understanding with you. Could you look over the following points, based on discussions among the Mii Fighter mains on Smashboards?

Our Goal: We want to be able to play as Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner with a reasonable amount of freedom in how they are created. This can be done without harming game balance, and since we're playing online they won't be a drag on how long it takes to play; we already have the characters made on our system in whatever variations are needed! This message is meant to lay out things we would consider acceptable, what advantages your (tournament/ladder) gains from it, and our attempt to resolve common concerns about the Miis. If after reading this request you are open to the idea, we invite you to stop by our character forums (links at the end of this message) and talk with us, or even offer an open declaration in your rules that you will permit the Miis.

Special Move Selection: Currently, many events force all three Miis to stick with a '1111' movelist, which is the first selectable move for each category of special move. On the surface this sounds fair, 'if nobody else can have customs, why should you', but this misses important points. The game outright allows Miis to keep their chosen moves even if the Custom Moves rules-switch is set to Off, showing that they are not meant to be considered 'Custom Moves', but rather 'selectable moves' on a character that can best be described as "Build To Order."

This is, in fact, their unique point. Where Rosalina gets a puppet character (Luma), Mega Man gets a projectile he can use while moving, and Little Mac gets Armor on his Smash Attacks... the Miis' special trick is that they are straightforward fighters whose exact fighting style is up to their player. If they want a little less recovery in return for a little more kill power, or vice versa, they can have that. If they want to focus on vertical kills instead of horizontal ones, that is their option. As these characters otherwise fight in recognizable ways, this ability to tweak the Mii Fighter to your tastes remains a fair option and is in no way unfair; tweaking is their unique advantage just as the characters mentioned above have their own special gimmick that makes them memorable and exciting.

On Balance Concerns: Even in their optimized forms, Miis are not disruptive to play. Even the best Swordfighter and Gunner builds possible have nothing truly abusive to them. Mii Brawler's 'One Inch Punch' kill-move glitch has been patched out, and while it is true that Brawler can score early horizontal KOs around 70% with proper move and stage selection... Zero Suit Samus can do the same thing vertically, and ZSS has not proven to be a problem in competitive play so far. The Miis are fair characters now and their inclusion will attract fans of these three, encouraging more variety in character selection.

On Character Size: Unsurprisingly, changing a Mii's size has a significant effect on how good a character they are. As this can affect play balance, we are open to a few different ideas on this.

If your event is willing to accept content from the Custom Moves Project ( http://smashboards.com/threads/official-custom-moveset-project-summer-2015-edition-evo-sets.395721/ ), then we have QR Codes that provide Miis of specific sizes tuned to what each Mii's fans thinks are the best. Specifically, Swordfighter and Gunner players want Miis that are 25% Height and 0% Width, while Brawler mains are split on 50/50 (default Mii size) or 0/0. These codes would let you quickly see what we're hoping for as an ideal form of each class. We think you'll find them fun, without being overpowered.

If you're not open to using variable-size Miis, many of us are willing to accept 50-50 (Guest/Default size) Miis as a compromise so long as we can have free special move selection. It's not ideal, but we consider custom size far less important than the freedom to pick our own special moves. These characters are designed around the very premise of being 'build to order' to fit their player's specific needs and desires, and limiting them to '1111 Specials' guts the entire point of the Mii Fighters. As mentioned above, other characters have unique tricks (puppets, armored normals, etc.); flexible fighting style design is the Miis' trick.

While this message tries to address the most common concerns, we'd love to talk with you if you have other questions! We enjoy our Mii Fighters, and want to be sure you're truly comfortable adding them to your venue. Please visit us at the following forum links if you have something to ask, and we'll work things out!

Swordfighter: http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-swordfighter-social-a-little-more-bairable.401541/

Brawler: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...u-and-mii-can-talk-mii-fighter-social.324305/

(The Brawler thread used to be the 'all three Miis' thread, so don't mind the odd labeling on the first page.)

Gunner: http://smashboards.com/threads/gunner-style-discussion.357770/

I realize this is a little extra work to do for something that has already taken up so much of your effort, but hope that you will hear us out. We're all devoted fans of our Mii Fighters, and truly want to play them in your venue. Would you be willing to work with us to come up with a fair arrangement?

Thank you for your time!

What do you think?

(EDIT: For what it's worth I'm not sure if my 3DS transfer paragraph adds much to this proposal, and might cut it in order to trim length.)

(EDIT Again: I'm also increasingly unconvinced 50-50 Swordfighter is viable. Or maybe I'm being too harsh on them... hmm. Worth more testing.)

(EDIT 3: Went ahead and removed the 3DS paragraph to make this proposal shorter for TOs to read. Anyone have any proofreading or feedback to offer? I would like to get this finalized so we can bring it to them soon. I might even edit it into an Open Letter to all TOs and just ask people to link them to the post once it's ready.)

 

[LimitCrown]

The Mii Swordfighter's moveset table in the Smash Wiki site has accurate damage values. Most of the damage values in the moveset table were added by me.

 

[Antonykun]

The Mii Swordfighter's moveset table in the Smash Wiki site has accurate damage values. Most of the damage values in the moveset table were added by me.

well i don't see anything wrong with it

 

[Trieste SP]

The Mii Swordfighter's moveset table in the Smash Wiki site has accurate damage values. Most of the damage values in the moveset table were added by me.

Huh, I didn't know this but thanks anyways.

I'm going to take it into consideration.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Alright. What I'm probably going to do is revise the above into a single 'open letter' we can point TOs and venue/ladder hosts to and hope we can get them here for a discussion. At the risk of stating the obvious, we'd need to be on best behavior and be patient. Some of them will be afraid of losing players, after all. People have gotten very, very touchy about Brawler due to the 'One Inch Punch', and now Tiny Brawler's Helicopter Kick combos. We're going to have to be ready to answer concerns like that many times for many different people, but these are the folks we need to truly convince, not a minority of hold-outs using crazy reasoning in an argument thread.

 

[Unknownkid]

All these rants... Ahh, good to be home again. How is everyone? I went to the AX last weekend for the first time and rekt some people with Butter Knight. Feels good, man. It feels really frickin' good.

 

[Trieste SP]

All these rants... Ahh, good to be home again. How is everyone? I went to the AX last weekend for the first time and rekt some people with Butter Knight. Feels good, man. It feels really frickin' good.

I'm fine thanks for asking!

Haven't seen you around here for a while glad you remembered to check back. I'm currently working on some data collecting for Swordfighter. I must admit the progress is slow but It'll be done when it's done.

 

[GS3K]

All these rants... Ahh, good to be home again. How is everyone? I went to the AX last weekend for the first time and rekt some people with Butter Knight. Feels good, man. It feels really frickin' good.

I'm trying to take time off this game so I don't kill myself from stress. Mario kart is normally not a good thing to play if you're trying to avoid stress (it's notorious for being the game that ruins friendships along with Mario party), but my face is stuck in this trollface grin from playing it.

Also still slightly salted swordgliding isn't a thing anymore

 

[Antonykun]

All these rants... Ahh, good to be home again. How is everyone? I went to the AX last weekend for the first time and rekt some people with Butter Knight. Feels good, man. It feels really frickin' good.

i have been playing DeSu2 3DS and its fun as heck

 

[Pegasus Knight]

i have been playing DeSu2 3DS and its fun as heck

Someone has good taste. (Make Mii Fighters of the DS2 cast, it's fun!)

 

[Antonykun]

Someone has good taste. (Make Mii Fighters of the DS2 cast, it's fun!)

the desire of making Daichi a tiny Brawler with helicopter kick to simulate multi hit is overflowing

 

[GS3K]

the desire of making Daichi a tiny Brawler with helicopter kick to simulate multi hit is overflowing

That picture terrifies me

 

[Unknownkid]

Glad to hear all. Dat picture Antonykun tho!

 

[GS3K]

I was under tornado warning yesterday because Kansas.

 

[Quickhero]

the desire of making Daichi a tiny Brawler with helicopter kick to simulate multi hit is overflowing

The skin tone is way too bright! 0/10

 

[Unknownkid]

I was under tornado warning yesterday because AirBender Kong.

Fix that for you. Didn't you know - he is on his way to EVO.

 

[Macchiato]

WHAT HAS ANTONY DONE TO ME? WHY AM I USING BUTTERKNIFE? WAT?

 

[Antonykun]

WHAT HAS ANTONY DONE TO ME? WHY AM I USING BUTTERKNIFE? WAT?

I'm still mad you killed me with raw Aerial assault

 

[Unknownkid]

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!!!