Midnight Ops Mafia: Game Thread. Game Over!

[Rajam]

Double-checked and didnt find any change. I thought Zen was voting me

I'm gonna eat something and then I'll be back

 

[Xivii]

Z25 Trisscar Malakandra ExLight someone unvote por favor

 

[Chaco]

I almost wanna meta the mod though with Rajam replacing Jackrito... replaceduring night phase.
it’s interesting. Probably nothing and impossible to confirm.

Scum partner down and inactive partner force replaced?

 

[Xivii]

Rajam signed up to replace before the Night phase, but UP didn't replace Jack until Day start.

 

[Chaco]

Okay cool. Thanks for the clarification there.

Xivii thoughts on laser Lynch?

 

[Z25]

Unvote

I didn’t know that was close to hammer

 

[Z25]

Z25 Trisscar Malakandra ExLight someone unvote por favor

Done, my bad I didn’t know it was close to hammer I thought Rajam was at 2.

I almost wanna meta the mod though with Rajam replacing Jackrito... replaceduring night phase.
it’s interesting. Probably nothing and impossible to confirm.

Scum partner down and inactive partner force replaced?

I honestly think that makes a lot of sense. No scum at night would throw off game balance and would actually probably tip the scale in scums favor, if scum is forced to kill. A no kill because of an inactive team would mean no kill and a wasted night where town learns nothing. Then come into day 2 and bam, scum could cause way more confusion and throw everything off for the rest of game.

 

[Chaco]

Well there’s confirmed 3, so that wasn’t what I was going at. Other partner could order kill most likely if that was the case.

It was more of a Jack showing no signs of replacing, and everyone else posted in thread to replace. Regardless of being night or not, no one saw it coming. That’s more what I was looking at.

 

[Rajam]

I almost wanna meta the mod though with Rajam replacing Jackrito... replaceduring night phase.
it’s interesting. Probably nothing and impossible to confirm.

Scum partner down and inactive partner force replaced?

I dont really know what you're up to but this definitely comes from town mindset

 

[Xivii]

Chaco, I am in the middle of a reread, but I will let you know once I'm finished.

From what I recall of that argument, Ran was the only person who seemed to think you were playing different or over reserved, while you and everyone else thought you were playing normally, so I chose to believe the majority there.

I don't think this is true. I'm trying to empathize and see things from your perspective here, but it really does seem like a stretch. This is how I am seeing it:

In addition to discounting Ranmaru's assessment, you also discounted your slots previous head's assessment of my play:

You're more humorous and slightly hyperactive than usual, but right now you're playing a pretty standard town Xivii from the little I've seen.

Proactive is definitely the word I would assign to your town play. You tend to be one of the earliest participants in any game, you ask a lot of questions, and generally tend to be an active part of the scumhunt conversation. You do also usually take on a more serious tone, though this time around you come across a bit more laid back.

 

[Rajam]

You thought Xivii was cleared by the lynch in #1016. What does it matter if his claim was real or fake? Yeeting mafia is a stronger Towntell. Can you explain what benefits you see in scum!Xivii outing himself D2, especially compared to doing so near EoD1 where he might have disrupted the Frozen wagon (and doubly so in traitor!Xivii scenario)?



That was not clear from context, but okay.



I don't disagree that this was a dubious play. But Bad Town is still Town. What bothers me about this whole sequence is that I don't get the feeling you actually believe Xivii is scum here. My feeling is that you believe he's Town, but want to yeet him regardless.



Again, the irony here is that you aren't basing your association based on the FF flip. You're basing it off of Xivii's claim and ignoring how he behaved in the Frozen lynch.



Why does traitor bus his buddy D1? Why does he recant D2?



I don't really feel that scum typically micromanage their buddies in the manner you describe, and I also don't feel that there's anything overly objectionable to your play from the point of view of a scummate.

The good thing from this here is that Laser flipping scum 100% clears Zen

 

[Z25]

Well there’s confirmed 3, so that wasn’t what I was going at. Other partner could order kill most likely if that was the case.

It was more of a Jack showing no signs of replacing, and everyone else posted in thread to replace. Regardless of being night or not, no one saw it coming. That’s more what I was looking at.

I see, it’s also possible that the other scum wasn’t answering in time, thus the need for a fast replacement. Although you’ve got a good point on jack showing no signs. It’s rare but scum can definitely do that to shake up a game.

Chaco, I am in the middle of a reread, but I will let you know once I'm finished.


I don't think this is true. I'm trying to empathize and see things from your perspective here, but it really does seem like a stretch. This is how I am seeing it:

In addition to discounting Ranmaru's assessment, you also discounted your slots previous head's assessment of my play:

Aw you made a chart about me, I feel special lol.

 

[Z25]

Anyway I have a little bit more to do on my assignment but I’ll look over when I’ve done.

 

[Xivii]

Z25 boi, I'm dirty dan not you

 

[Xivii]

Why such a different start? You usually come across as quite confident rather then speculative and don’t really draw attention to yourself unless in a debate with someone and bring attention to your content from there.

1) What gave you the impression that I was being speculative?
2) I brought attention to myself in Token mafia, did I not? By joke claiming every post and making rainbow readlists without much to go on?

 

[Rajam]

The more I read, the more of a headache Z25 becomes *scratches head*

Not super happy that hammer went before I had the chance to come back to the game. Just for the record in case I haven't said this before but I basically can only post in the evenings, aside maybe from the odd phone post, on Saturdays/Sundays. So you get the analysis in a couple of giant posts instead.

Wagon analysis:

Spoiler

Final wagon

[6] BoomFrog: Z25, Fontisian, Chaco, Darkpit54, Rajam, Xivii
[3] Chaco: ExLight, Trisscar, LaserGuy
[1] Rajam: Malakandra

Not voting: BoomFrog


This is the reconstructed Chaco/Rajam wagons on page 45ish. There's no VC nearby so hopefully I got everyone's votes correct.

[1] BoomFrog: Z25
[4] Chaco: ExLight, Xivii, Trisscar, LaserGuy
[5] Rajam: BoomFrog, Malakandra, fonti, Dark, Chaco
[1] Z25: Rajam


This is the wagon I reconstructed at the time of the accidental hammer.

[2] BoomFrog: LaserGuy, Z25
[1] Chaco: ExLight
[6] Rajam: BoomFrog, Malakandra, Xivii, fonti, Dark, Chaco
[1] ExLight: Trisscar
[1] Z25: Rajam

Early Rajam wagon from 1219

[4] Rajam: Xivii, Fonti, Laser, Mala
[1] ExLight: Trisscar
[1] Chaco: ExLight
[1] Boomfrog: Rajam

Not voting: Z25, Fontisian, Dark, Chaco

The very early Rajam wagon (Xivii, Fonti, Laser, Mala) and the later one (BoomFrog, Malakandra, fonti, Dark) both look very good to me. Mala and Rajam are unlikely buddies here. Mala had a chance to move to Chaco wagon just before it was disbanded (right near the bottom VC) and didn't. Scum can't really afford to bus so I imagine scum!Mala jumps onto the Chaco in the event of scum!Rajam. Conversely, Mala and Chaco are more likely buddies because Mala didn't. Same analysis applies to Darkpit. Reverse applies to Exlight (possibly with Rajam, unlikely with Chaco). I'm unsure on z25. On the one hand, they're a swing vote and could arguably have pushed this either way, but also pushing a third option on a soft target is something scum might be able to get away with rather than immediately committing to voting on the main wagons even if they're mafia. So I think scum!Rajam clears Mala and Dark; scum!Chaco clears Exlight and possibly z25.

I'm kind of leaning toward a possibly Rajam/Chaco or Rajam/Exlight scenario at the moment.


D1 wagons

Spoiler

Earlier VCs quoted in 1043
[3] BoomFrog: Xivii, Fontisian, LaserGuy
[2] LaserGuy: NonSpecificGuy, JackritoRajam
[2] Xivii: BoomFrog, Chaco
[1] Somitomi: #HBC | FrozenFlame

Not voting: Z25, Trisscar, Darkpit54, Exlight, Malakandra

[4] FrozenFlame: Fonti, Pit, Triss, Xivii
[3] Xivii: BoomFrog, Chaco, Malakandra
[1] BoomFrog: LaserGuy
[2] LaserGuy: NonSpecificGuy, Rajam
[1] SomitomiExlight: #HBC | FrozenFlame

[7] #HBC | FrozenFlame: Fontisian, Darkpit54, Trisscar, Xivii, LaserGuy, Malakandra, z25
[3] LaserGuy: NonSpecificGuy, Rajam,ExLight
[2] Xivii: BoomFrog, Chaco
[1] ExLight: #HBC | FrozenFlame

Not too much change here with the addition of Town!Boom. Rajam, Exlight, Chaco all a little dubious for being on counterwagons to mafia. z25 and Mala as possible bus votes.

Considering BoomFrog's insistence, I've thought a lot about Xivii's position here. As I said earlier, I think it would probably be quite unusual for Xivii to bus a buddy here and encourage others to vote the wagon without an escape plan, both as traitor or as full mafia. There's a few scenarios I could maybe envision for this to happen, but it would be a bit of a stretch.

Cross-referencing EoD1 with EoD2, Rajam and Chaco voting off-wagon against mafia EoD1 and z25 is very late; all on a Town wagon EoD2. Not a great look.

Other stuff...



Talk to me about this. Why were you so insistent that we push for Boom and end the day early? What happened to Rajam = claimed scum?






Quoting this for posterity so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle. Boom has good instincts and his analysis on z25 looks very plausible.

Rajam seems very weirdly chill about being almost hammered here. Unsure how to read this so I'm just noting it for now.

The speculation in this post by Rajam bothers me. I'm on the fence as to whether it is pure speculation or extremely informed speculation. What is more interesting, IMHO, is that he doesn't mention Mala at all in this scenario even though they also fit. My wagon analysis says Mala and Rajam probably not buddies, but maybe Mala just busses habitually as mafia and Rajam is really talking about the scenario he and Mala found themselves in during N1.




z25 is not the traitor.




But could be mafia.

These is Laser setting up his next target after my mislynch (or if my lynch doesn't proceed toDay). Read #2000 + #2003 fully for a better comprehension of the progression

 

[Rajam]

Can we lynch Laser today?

Malakandra, you in?
Z25, you in?
ExLight, you in?

 

[Rajam]

these laser posts look great
I guess I could shove him into a scum-null lean rather than a scumread

I would've expected a more radical shift with that impression you got

 

[Xivii]

This seems unlikely to come from scum Zen.

I also actually sort of agree here even if your other posts were odd. Laser pushing NSG when he is still newish and even alludes to this in his post, is a very odd post. One I don’t think looks good.

Scum Zen doesn’t push the very obvious newbie NSG when he knows NSG is new.

If your push was successful, a lynch on NSG when you had very little to go off of, you would look very bad and likely go next.

So here you town read me for pushing NSG because if he flipped town it would look bad on me. But in the same post you're scumreading LaserGuy for the same thing. How does that make sense?

Vote: Z25

And wanting Rax, someone who is likely not on the same team as you( but you could both be town), you shouldn’t be trying to figure out how they are going to play. It sounds like your trying to plan around whatever they may be trying to do.

Why wasn't Rax likely on the same team on me based on content from 1 page into the game? And we weren't on the same team, why wouldn't town!me want to know the scum!Raxxel's strategy?

 

[Xivii]

Everyone should switch to Smashboards Sapphire

 

[Xivii]

Z25 what was your reasoning on Frozen before the end of the day? At the end, you stated you were ok with Frozen or Zen. Why Frozen?

 

[Trisscar]

Swamped irl with rearranging my house so floors could be Re done

Fun! May I inquire if damage was the cause and what you're replacing it with?

trisscar needs to come in and step up his/her game. Has been too naive so far and a non-presence. Sorry if this comes as a bit rude. If anything, listen to dead people, specially fontisian

*raises eyebrow* Bit of an interesting request if you think I'm a PR.

wife’s birthday is Friday

Please wish her a happy birthday and many merry returns.

Everyone should switch to Smashboards Sapphire

I happen to like my eyes enough to use the darkmode version. XD

 

[Z25]

Z25 boi, I'm dirty dan not you

lol my bad I thought that was meant for me qt

1) What gave you the impression that I was being speculative?
2) I brought attention to myself in Token mafia, did I not? By joke claiming every post and making rainbow readlists without much to go on?

You just answered this very question. There’s quite a lot of posts in games where you don’t play seriously. Why the post reads list and reasonings were odd, it felt more like wacky antics from you then being serious.

Rainbow or not, no one is coming post one with a serious reads lis. As you said it’s random speculation usually based around nothing, or its a joke.

Can we lynch Laser today?

Malakandra, you in?
Z25, you in?
ExLight, you in?

I do think Laser can be scum so I’d consider it. But I want to review his scum plays again.

So here you town read me for pushing NSG because if he flipped town it would look bad on me. But in the same post you're scumreading LaserGuy for the same thing. How does that make sense?

Vote: Z25

Why wasn't Rax likely on the same team on me based on content from 1 page into the game? And we weren't on the same team, why wouldn't town!me want to know the scum!Raxxel's strategy?

We’ve been over this but fine.

Laser immediately went to vote NSG.

Look at 14 and tell me how the hell that justified an actual scum read when NSG literally mentions he’s only played a couple times.

That’s not a town POV by Laser, it feels more like scum trying to get an easy day one bus.

Also wtf are you talking about I scum read laser for it in the same post?
509 doesn’t even mention laser.

Do I bring it up later yes, but under different circumstances. My point on the laser vote is the immediate voting of the NSG slot. You did not, you may he tried to push him but not until later.

But your looking from the wrong perspective.

If Laser is scum he was pushing a townie. That post I made mentions how’s scum zen would not do that and bus a teammate.

So if you have an issue with that it doesn’t add up.

Town Zen would push that as he wouldn’t be aware of NSG’s alignment. Scum Zen doesn’t not go after mates, he helps them out.

Town Laser could push NSG a newbie, but makes no sense to vote him right away when scum Laser focused on gimmicks to gain reactions previously and argued how he would still try that as town.

So why didn’t he here? Instead he immediately went after a very obviously new player. You could argue scum wouldn’t do that as it would look bad, but scum also do go for easy yeets day one because they can get away with it. So it could go either way. But that behavior felt more scummy to me then your actions. Thats why he got a scum lean from me early on.

 

[Rajam]

ExLight's not posting like a wolf. And Rajam's Jester-like-wifom is making me suspect that we don't yet have the correct solve. There's been a number of things nagging me about Chaco throughout the game:

• His but no I'm not lurking statement page 1 biggest reach. Lurking page 1, really?
• His attempt to associate me and boom together early on How early? this can barely be taken seriously as the game was just building up
• Gunning for me when Fonti had laid out a solid case for why I was town and believing that Fonti could be cleared which would have essentially "cleared" me. When was this? Depending on timing you have to admit your claim caused a lot of paranoia, to say the least
• Promoting a no lynch If numbers make sense, why not? in the games I've played, the few times people propose No Lynch, those people have always been town
• Failing to join the frozen train while pushing a town counterwagon.
• Attempt to get PRs to claim NUMEROUS TIMES. I don't think we can ignore this any longer. On Day 1, he danced around trying to get the Neap to claim early. Today he advocated for masons claiming when it was completely unnecessary. And just now he tried to verify that I was VT. I don't think he pushed that hard. Was more on the tone 'I support claims' and that's it.
• If you look at his play throughout today, you'll see that he's been awkward around Rajam and his wagon. There was a post where he said something to the like of "oh Rajam before boom?" like he was caught off guard with the push. He's been hard pushing Boom over Rajam and supported my statement that they aren't partners, coming off to me like he's positioning himself for the future when one of them flips town. You're assuming I'll flip scum here

 

[Z25]

I want to kill this. Frozen is saying "very good catch," "really solid take here," and "very clean analysis," about terrible takes. He's apparently very experienced, and should probably know better. It's also just way to positive, this feels like scum egging on town to kill town.

Vote: FrozenFlame

Z25 what was your reasoning on Frozen before the end of the day? At the end, you stated you were ok with Frozen or Zen. Why Frozen?

The above post really sold me, that and the pocketing of chaco was a lot more evident as I was re reading and seeing how I felt on the last few slots.

Fun! May I inquire if damage was the cause and what you're replacing it with?



*raises eyebrow* Bit of an interesting request if you think I'm a PR.



Please wish her a happy birthday and many merry returns.



I happen to like my eyes enough to use the darkmode version. XD

Nothing like that, just that the floors haven’t been done in awhile so they got a new look as we plan to sell next year.

 

[Z25]

Why quote this if your looking at Laser today?

 

[Z25]

EBWOP: apparently this post didn’t show up but please answer the above

 

[Trisscar]

Nothing like that, just that the floors haven’t been done in awhile so they got a new look as we plan to sell next year.

Ahhh fair. Whaddya have before and whaddya replacing it with?

 

[Xivii]

This seems unlikely to come from scum Zen.

I also actually sort of agree here even if your other posts were odd. Laser pushing NSG when he is still newish and even alludes to this in his post, is a very odd post. One I don’t think looks good.

You did mention Laser in the same post. You say I'm town for pushing NSG in the green here. But in the red you say Laser is scum for pushing NSG. It isn't consistent.

And you clarified that you were indeed talking about the same thing here:

Scum Zen doesn’t push the very obvious newbie NSG when he knows NSG is new.

 

[Z25]

Ahhh fair. Whaddya have before and whaddya replacing it with?

It was some darkwood flooring and now it’s oak wood, but that’s a bit irrelevant to the game.

 

[Xivii]

The color didn't show up:

This seems unlikely to come from scum Zen.

I also actually sort of agree here even if your other posts were odd. Laser pushing NSG when he is still newish and even alludes to this in his post, is a very odd post. One I don’t think looks good.

 

[Z25]

The color didn't show up:

what post number are you quoting? I am blind or is Laser actually in the below quote, the 509 you seemed to be talking about.

Bold of you to assume ninja is scum when he is a slot who unfortunately is very newbie and doesn’t defend themselves regardless of alignment.

Anyway you don’t start with reads and you have more confidence in games outside of this be, relentless stating your points as fact.

Scum Zen doesn’t push the very obvious newbie NSG when he knows NSG is new.

Jack’s tone and behavior line up almost exactly with his previous ones.

And wanting Rax, someone who is likely not on the same team as you( but you could both be town), you shouldn’t be trying to figure out how they are going to play. It sounds like your trying to plan around whatever they may be trying to do.

Because I think I can see pretty clear

 

[Xivii]

Dude I'm referring to #494:

You state me pushing NSG is unlikely to come from scum Zen.
You state Laser pushing NSG is doesn't look good.

It's inconsistent.

 

[Z25]

It’s only page one and zen has taken me for a ride lol.

Why such a different start? You usually come across as quite confident rather then speculative and don’t really draw attention to yourself unless in a debate with someone and bring attention to your content from there.

Why Would you want Rax to reveal this? Sounds like fishing.


Sort of touched upon it upon but your not playing as confident and I suppose simple as before where you leave a question or opinion and sit back a bit. However:

This seems unlikely to come from scum Zen.

I also actually sort of agree here even if your other posts were odd. Laser pushing NSG when he is still newish and even alludes to this in his post, is a very odd post. One I don’t think looks good.

But onto the next page.

Dude I'm referring to #494:

You state me pushing NSG is unlikely to come from scum Zen.
You state Laser pushing NSG is doesn't look good.

It's inconsistent.

ok, but my previous post literally answers this. It’s not in your meta to push a newbie or scum mate.


Laser’s meta would make more sense based on his play style.As scum he looked for people with bad reactions to his bit day one to oush them

AKA he baited townies he thought would be viewed as weaker or scummy into reacting to him. Here we see him targeting a very obvious newb town player.

Tell me how that’s anywhere near your play? Not every slot has to function on the same merits, the same way no one is going to read every slot the same. Meta and behavior varies from player to player and that’s how you determine scum behavior between players, not by applying the same logic to everyone.

 

[Xivii]

But how is it not in my meta? You've seen me play as scum twice:

-The first time I pushed you because you were an easy ML.
-The second time I pushed Hando because he was an easy ML.

How is it not in my meta?

 

[Xivii]

• His but no I'm not lurking statement page 1
  biggest reach. Lurking page 1, really?
  This isn't relevant to my point. My point isn't that he was lurking on page 1. My point is that he reacted to me joking about him lurking as if it were serious. Do you maintain this is a reach?
  
  
• Gunning for me when Fonti had laid out a solid case for why I was town and believing that Fonti could be cleared which would have essentially "cleared" me.
  When was this? Depending on timing you have to admit your claim caused a lot of paranoia, to say the least. Fonti laid out how as scum I couldn't have known if there was a Chocolate in the game or not at the time when I claimed. And since there were still people who had not yet posted, scum!me couldn't have know if I would have been counterclaimed. Despite this argument, Chaco pushed me as the play. Do you maintain that this is a reach?
  
  
• Promoting a no lynch
  If numbers make sense, why not? in the games I've played, the few times people propose No Lynch, those people have always been town
  Please layout how the numbers made sense.
  
  
• Attempt to get PRs to claim NUMEROUS TIMES. I don't think we can ignore this any longer. On Day 1, he danced around trying to get the Neap to claim early. Today he advocated for masons claiming when it was completely unnecessary. And just now he tried to verify that I was VT.
  I don't think he pushed that hard. Was more on the tone 'I support claims' and that's it.
  He pushed for claiming on multiple occasions. And he essentially asked me if I were a VT. Even if you don't agree with this, how is it a reach?

 

[Z25]

But how is it not in my meta? You've seen me play as scum twice:

-The first time I pushed you because you were an easy ML.
-The second time I pushed Hando because he was an easy ML.

How is it not in my meta?

I and Hando were not newbie players. I don’t remember the later b it for the former I still put up a fight. It’s still very different then trying to miss yet a newbie.

I get yeeted day one quite often so it really wasn’t a stretch for you to take advantage of that or pull it off. That doesn’t mean I’m not experienced though. I still argue that’s Avery different scenario.

 

[Xivii]

You were still easy misyeets. I don't at all get where you're getting the idea that I wouldn't push a newbie player. What is something specific in my games that gave you that impression?

 

[Malakandra]

Chaco, I am in the middle of a reread, but I will let you know once I'm finished.


I don't think this is true. I'm trying to empathize and see things from your perspective here, but it really does seem like a stretch. This is how I am seeing it:

In addition to discounting Ranmaru's assessment, you also discounted your slots previous head's assessment of my play:

You're not taking in the amount of paranoia you can cause. I wasn't going to missclear you after: A whole game of flip flopping around on your slot last game, getting pocketed by you at endgame and losing because of it, multiple people say you are a super strong player.

I don't see how its that hard to see how I believed a majority of people talking about your play, over one other person. Even if that person was right about your alignment, playstyle would be a thing I'm inclined to think more people recognize. As for my slot, I didn't know how recently/ how often they had played with you.

I just think this is something we are going to disagree on. I get its hard to see the worry and distrust you cause from your perspective, but its there. The simple truth is I did bypass the good faith solution, because I did not have faith in you to be on the simple option. I think that opinion is justified by your crazy play with the chocolate, you do crazy things, I'm definitely rethinking how those crazy things you do relates to your alignment, but back then I saw you doing things and got worried.

 

[Xivii]

There's a difference between misclearing and simply finding it null. If it were null, that would be reasonable, but you were scum reading me for it. And again, no one in Sumting said that my standard town play was being reserved.

Edit: added the word 'in'