Middle Cup Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

Source: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77117

So in a nutshell, Middle Cup involves level 50 playing with Pokemon that are in the "middle" or their evolutions. A Middle Cup Pokemon has to have had evolved from something, and will evolve into something. In short, Pokemon without evolutions and Pokemon with a single evolution are out of the question. Pokemon like Rhydon, Monferno, and Kakuna would be examples of viable Middle Cup Pokemon, and there's a list provided in the Smogon link. Also, similarily to Little Cup, a Pokemon can only use moves allowed before level 50, moves that any previous evolution would learn before level 50, breeding moves, TMs, HMs, and Tutor moves

Knowing that, what do you guys think about Middle Cup? Does it sound appealing to you? What sounds bad? What type of metagame do you think Middle Cup would develop into? This thread can be for all discussions and possible theorymon about Middle Cup.

I'll contribute with my own opinions later.

 

[Gates]

Sounds awesome.

The only minor problem I can think of is that any non-rain weather strategy is totally shut down, and like I said, it's really minor.

I also don't really like that Chansey is allowed. Hello stall.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Sandstorm and Hail are completely removed as weather possibilities, unless you really want to run Sand Rock or Icy Rock on something, haha.

I can see Rhydon and Chansey being extremely popular, since they function great in UU. Rhydon would just tank physical hits while Chansey tanks special ones.
Another thing I realized was that Sleep Powder becomes the most accurate sleep-inducing move since Spore is out and Sweet / Lovely Kiss is as well.

I'll try to think a bit more about Middle Cup and come back later.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Chansey, Dusclops, Magneton, Porygon2, Kadabra, Rhydon, Metang, Electabuzz, Piloswine, Haunter, Golbat, and Pikachu will be the ones we see most frequently in this. None the less, this appears to be very amusing.

 

[IceArrow]

This would make a cool tournament. Rhydon would be used a lot too.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Pikachu would be great. It has great base Speed, and Light Ball just wrecks everything. Dusclops and Rhydon would be premier defensive Pokemon.

I think you're forgetting Shelgon, Gabite, and Grovyle too. Shelgon would need a couple Dragon Dances to be a more powerful threat, and Gabite seems to be a good Choice Scarf user. Grovyle would be the fastest Leech Seeder, and has a good movepool to supply itself as well.

 

[Wave⁂]

I certainly like the name "Middle Cup" more than "Not Entirely Evolved."

 

[Fuelbi]

Man Tery, I actually had this in mind for one of my tourney ideas but dropped it when I ultimately thought that this wouldn't work because well...

I just thought it wouldn't work out and that it was too ludicrous idea so I dropped it.

But it's nice to know that people are actually taking an interest in this tourney so I think I'll keep this on my list of ideas on that

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Yeah, I think a Middle Cup Tournament would be something worth initiating to spark interest and our own grip on the metagame.

 

[Chill]

Moving to battle tower.

The first pokemon that came to mind when I read this was the already mentioned Chansey. Porygon-2 seems like another great candidate for a metagame like this.

 

[mood4food77]

outside of thsoe already mentioned, we still got haunter, magneton, monferno (suicide lead possibly?), and even piloswine to play with

 

[The Real Gamer]

Due to the fact that a lot of "Middle Cup" Pokemon have low defenses and the more popular ones will have higher speed (Haunter, Pikachu, Gabite, etc.), I could see Trick Room teams becoming a lot more dangerous.

In fact, just looking through the list of Middle Cup Pokemon, a very select few of them would be able to stand up to a Machoke under Trick Room.

 

[Wrath`]

Sounds interesting, but I just hate EV spreads when not at lv100, cause I truly do not understand how it works under lvv100.

None the less I would enter this if it became a tournament.

 

[Circa]

Dude you guys are all wrong. Clearly the top dog in this cup is mother****ing Kakuna.

With its biggest nemesis in Steelix gone, it'll rip through teams like a fist through wet paper.

 

[Gates]

When I was doing some Little Cup stuff a while ago I actually calculated out the formula for EVs in relation to level. I derived that formula thusly:

At level 100, 4 EVs = 1 stat point
At level 5, 80 EVs = 1 stat point
100*4 = 400
5*80 = 400

Therefore, we can conclude that the amount of EVs required to increase a stat point by one is inversely proportional to the level of the pokemon and the product of those two numbers is equal to 400. Or, to put it formulaically:

E = 400/L

Where E is the amount of EVs required to raise a pokemon's stat by 1 and L is that pokemon's level. For level 50 pokemon, the formula we get is this:

E = 400/50 = 8

Therefore, at level 50 it takes 8 EVs in a stat to raise that stat by 1 point.

 

[Wrath`]

Wow that helps immensely Gates, we should add that to the "competitive Thread" we have.

 

[Circa]

However, there is a slight oddity in it. Your stat's first raise will actually happen at 4 as opposed to the 8 you expect. It then raises up every 8 after that though, so it's 4, 12, 20, 28, etc.

AND. If the stat you are trying to EV up happens to be the one you lowered (for instance, if you tried to put EVs into Speed when you're running a Quiet nature), it takes 12 before it raises up by one point at the start. It then follows the same every 8 rule though. So it'll be 12, 20, 28, etc. as opposed to the normal 4, 12, 20, 28, etc. This rule only applies to even-numbered base stats though, it seems.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the max EVs you'll need for max is still 252. It's not weird stuff like it is in LC. Just thought I'd point that out as well.

EDIT2: Even-numbered IVs only raise up every 8, starting at 8. So it runs along a line of 8, 16, 24, 32, etc. and caps at 248 as opposed to the odd-numbered 4, 12, 20, 28, etc. and capping at 252. Remember that when using the various Hidden Power types you might use, as it could possibly make a difference.

EDIT3: When doing the above thing on an even-numbered IV when also using an even-numbered base stat that was lowered via Nature (see the original portion of this post to understand wtf I'm talking about if you're lost), it takes 16 to reach your first stat boost as opposed to 8. Everything else follows the same after that though.

I hope SOME of this actually makes sense. :\

inb4fueldoesn'tunderstand

 

[B_T]

Ah, I love this tier.

In two words: Substitute Rhydon. NOTHING truly counters this for what I am aware. Rhydon has a Base 105 HP Stat, enough to achieve 204 HP and 51 HP Substitutes, ubreakable by a Dusclops Night Shade. Dusclops's 4 Atk Earthquake also fails to break the Sub on average - it does around 22%-26% iirc. I think there are only checks to this set, and those usually require to take a hit before hitting it due to it's Substitute, which is impossible to a great deal of them.

Also, Chansey isn't that broken as it seems. The Pokemon she is used for - Haunter and Kadabra, all have means to win one-on-one. Both have Taunt, Haunter has Pain Spilt and Kadabra has Recover, not to mention that outside of Seismic Toss Chansey is a weakling and can barely break a Haunter sub; in fact, all Haunter needs is 124 HP EVs to never get it's Sub broken by a 4 SpA Chansey Ice Beam / Flamethrower. It can proceed to torture it from there, though it admittedly needs Taunt to truly beat it one-on-one without PP stalling it to death.

Dusclops is good but weaker than you think; even Pokemon it seems to do well against have means to beat it. A simple 4 HP Magmar with no additional Defensive Investment can WoW it and proceed to Fire Blast it for the 2HKO (WoW damage insures this), while Earthquake does a pathetic ~35% damage. Rhydon can sub. It admittedly does well against the likes of Electabuzz and Machoke, but it still falls to standard Pokemon that see it as set-up bait. Roselia has a field trip for a while (again, Dusclops actually has a 70 Atk Stat, much worse than Dusknoir's 100) with the needed defensive investment, while Pokemon like Magneton can Magnet Rise / Substitute on it's face assuming they predict the right move. Even Chansey beats it with Toxic unless it runs ResTalk, which imo it can't afford since it needs WoW, Earthquake and Ice Punch as well just for those pesky Golbat.

Speaking of Golbat, I haven't really thought much about it yet, but I'll get to it eventually.

Is there anyone else interested in testing some teams then? After all, it IS the best way to learn. All I've said here is without playing ONE MC match before, so I'd like some practice as well to see if I'm that accurate ; )

 

[Gates]

BT I'll play you later tonight.

IceArrow and I played a MC match last night and it was fun. You're right in that Dusclops is not that good but it still provides a fighting immunity for teams with Chansey.

 

[IceArrow]

I already made 4 teams for this. B_T ill play you so I can test my teams.

 

[Wave⁂]

Full list:
Ivysaur, Charmelion, Wartortle, Pigeotto, Nidorina, Nidorino, Pikachu, Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Golbat, Gloom, Poliwhirl, Kadabra, Machoke, Magneton, Weepinbell, Graveler, Rhydon, Haunter, Chansey, Seadra, Electabuzz, Magmar, Dragonair, Bayleef, Quilava, Croconaw, Togetic, Flaaffy, Marill, Skiploom, Piloswine, Porygon2, Pupitar, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp, Lombre, Nuzleaf, Kirlia, Vigoroth, Roselia, Loudred, Lairon, Dusclops, Vibrava, Sealeo, Shelgon, Metang, Grotle, Monferno, Prinlup, Staravia, Luxio, Gabite

Mostly useless:
Metapod, Kakuna, Silcoon, Cascoon

OU of Middle Cup:

Gabite, Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, Scyther, Vigoroth, Dusclops, Magmar, Electabuzz, Seadra, Rhydon, Porygon2, Dragonair, Piloswine, Roselia

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Wouldn't Machoke be very used as well? It has a healthy base Attack stat for using Dynamicpunch under No Guard, and Guts variants would also thrive.

 

[Circa]

OU of Middle Cup:

Gabite, Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, Scyther, Vigoroth, Dusclops, Magmar, Electabuzz, Seadra, Rhydon, Porygon2, Dragonair, Piloswine, Roselia

You forgot Golbat and possibly Pikachu (something tells me it'll be used a lot at first and then fall off), but other than that I agree.

 

[IceArrow]

OU: Gabite, Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, Vigoroth, Dusclops, Magmar, Electabuzz, Seadra, Rhydon, Porygon2, Dragonair, Shelgon, Monferno, Piloswine, Roselia, Metang, Golbat, Machoke, Pikachu, Marshtomp, and Magneton.

UU: Nuzleaf, Luxio, Grotle, Weepinbell, Skiploom, Lairon, Grovyle, Kirlia, Gloom, Staravia, Combusken, Quilava, Crocanaw, Ivysaur, Poliwhirl, and Graveler.

NU: Charmeleon, Wartortle, Pidgeotto, Nidorino, Nidorina, Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Bayleef, Togetic, Flaaffy, Marill, Pupitar, Lombre, Loudred, Vibrava, Sealeo, Grotle, Prinplup, Metapod, Kakuna, Silcoon, and Cascoon.

If I missed a pokemon tell me.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Unless we're all just having fun theorymoning and predicting I think it'd be better to wait on tiering ideas until after we've actually played and experimented with Middle Cup, haha.

 

[IceArrow]

Ok ill start testing. Ill be in Machamp's Pants a lot today testing. Can someone else come in to help me test?

Do they have to learn a move before lvl 50?

 

[Gates]

Unless we're all just having fun theorymoning and predicting I think it'd be better to wait on tiering ideas until after we've actually played and experimented with Middle Cup, haha.

This.

Ok ill start testing. Ill be in Machamp's Pants a lot today testing. Can someone else come in to help me test?

I'll head on in soon.

Do they have to learn a move before lvl 50?

Yes. Only moves allowed before level 50, moves that any previous evolution would learn before level 50, breeding moves, TMs, HMs, and Tutor moves.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Yes. Only moves allowed before level 50, moves that any previous evolution would learn before level 50, breeding moves, TMs, HMs, and Tutor moves.

That's a good point. I'm going to add this to the OP just in case.

 

[Gates]

Someone should make a list of illegal moves or move combinations for this tier also.

NOT IT.

 

[IceArrow]

NOT IT. lol

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Or instead of playing not it, we could wait until someone on Smogon creates the list because we're just that group of lazy bums, haha.

 

[B_T]

Why wait for Smogon? We don't really need a list for OUs, UUs, ect., and besides, Smogon's playerbase for this is pretty **** small for it to get anywhere soon. P2 and Rhydon are some solid suspects, though, as Rhydon wrecks absolutely everything and P2 hits a lot harder than you'd expect, 2HKOing almost everything with Tri Attack that doesn't resist it, although even 4 HP Magnezone takes around half from it. And if P2 has outlived it's usefulness as an extremely reliable Scarfed Revenge Killer, it can Trick an incoming Chansey it's item. Very, very underrated.

I might be on the PO server later as well.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We weren't referring to the tiering, we were referring to illegal combinations and stuffs.

 

[Circa]

UU: Ivysaur

NU: Grotle

Wtf are you smoking.

Comparitively, Grotle is actually better than Ivysaur. Or at least imo. They're about even at worst.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Ivysaur gets Swords Dance and Sleep Powder, while Grotle gets Crunch and Curse.

Grovyle is where it's at, though. Fast Leech Seed, you can run Thunderpunch freely without worry since Marshtomp isn't switching in anytime soon.

IceArrow's Dragonair works great as a lead. Shed Skin is really awesome, especially on a Pokemon like Dragonair.

 

[B_T]

Weepinbell is really underrated. STAB Seed Bomb in combination with great Base Attack, Sleep Powder, Swords Dance and Sucker Punch makes for a very potent sweeper once the proper Pokemon has been brought to sleep (like Magnezone / Metang).

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I think you meant Magneton. Anyway I've been liking how effective Choice Scarf Gabite has been working. Getting locked onto Outrage may be unfortunate but it's still a potent revenge killer with Earthquake / Outrage / Shadow Claw / Stone Edge.

 

[IceArrow]

Ya gabite is just like garchomp. I found a better lead then dragonair but i still will use dragonair as a lead sometimes.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Monferno does nicely as a lead with Fake Out / Mach Punch / Flare Blitz / Shadow Claw. Great coverage backed by Life Orb.

I can now classify myself as a UnderUsed / Middle Cup player. :3

 

[Gates]

I still think Golbat is a nice lead eh taunts and has good stab and doesn't afraid of anything.

Scarf Gabite can actually kill ghosts and psychics fine by using Dragon Claw instead of Shadow Claw. Shadow Claw will only do about 5% more to Dusclops than Dragon Claw and all the other psychics and ghosts are too frail to take any kind of physical hit (except Metagross who you'd want to hit with Earthquake anyway).

Seadra is also really good in this format. Same speed and special attack as Kingdra at the cost of bulk and attack. DD Seadra will probably be rare, but Agility Seadra will be the ****.