Mewtwo's worst Matchup?

[Master Raven]

Mewtwo definitely isn't easy to play at high level. In fact, no character is. Learning curves only affect low to mid level play. I don't like when people are discredited of their wins because their character is apparently easy to play. Try doing that against good players who know the matchup. I promise you it isn't easy. Plus you have to realize that PM as of 3.0 is a relatively new game with a lot of new players who aren't that proficient in their Smash fundamentals (no offense to these players, but PM is pretty unorthodox for a Smash game), so people who already have experience and smarts like Emukiller (who, btw, not only plays Melee but also used to play Brawl) are going to be able to exploit how powerful characters like Mewtwo are against a lot of inexperienced Smash players.

I do agree that Mewtwo has some unbalanced attributes going for him (mainly his tail) but don't go off thinking he's a newbie-friendly character just because he's so kinda busted. The gaps in his matchup spread are recently beginning to close, and that's because people are learning how to fight the character, although I still think he is the best character in the game.

 

[xSTx]

Mewtwo isn't as hard to use as other characters, that's all I'm saying. He has so many good tools that there is no way to shut him down, he always has an option.

There are like 50 threads on here about using teleport, and the woop thread is practically the most important one. You don't even have to use his new tools to win, watch mew2king.

The sodium is high here.

EDIT : Last thing I'm saying, before somebody tries to make an excuse and tries to back up that he's not easy to use.

 

[Master Raven]

Having many good tools and options does not automatically make a character easy to use. Look at Fox in Melee. Also M2K is not the best representation of M2 and only wins with him because he's better than 99% of players and doesn't even use him in every match anyway.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

There are like 50 threads on here about using teleport, and the woop thread is practically the most important one.

So, what, do you just go around picking arguments in every single one? Your first comments weren't even related to the OP. I can only guess at your true intentions, and from what it looks like, you just want to wrassle.

Look, if you don't understand a character, there are far better ways to deal with it than lashing out at the people who enjoy playing him. You can either keep losing to Mewtwos and get ticked off because you don't understand why you're losing, or you can man up (or 'woman up,' I don't know you) and practice. Heck, I will gladly spar with you and give you tips and be your best bro if that's what you're really looking for. Just stop taking it out on everyone else.

 

[leekslap]

@ EmuKiller some more input on bad MUs after having some more expierience

 

[EmuKiller]

Mewtwo still has no bad matchups just hard matchups!

Roy is NOT HARD. I was crazy and got hit by stupid stuff. You have a bigger sword, really easy time edgeguarding, and combo the crap out of him when he's in the air above you.

Pikachu is still pretty hard when you get hit, but mewtwo definitely can avoid getting hit by pikachu. Pikachu is like.. a worse lucas xD.

Toon Link, Link, ZeRo, and Diddy are probably what I struggle with the most but realistically you'd have to get outplayed to lose. Lucas Sonic and Metaknight might be really really hard but I haven't lost to any lucas/sonic/metaknight recently, so not much matchup experience. I think mewtwo goes even with (or even beats) Pit but I can't even come close to beating ZeRo and well I haven't played any other pits than him and that one set vs armada.

I could go into details as why toon link, link, and diddy are hard but it's late, maybe I'll edit the post or write a guide. Basically Link's boomerang is really good, toon link's bombs are really good, and mewtwo physically can't have good banana usage. Like frame data and how high up a banana is thrown at just mean you can't do ANYTHING cool with a banana. Maybe I still need to work on it but.... yeah I dunno I'm ranting now :D

Otherwise hmm.... falcon hits hard so that can be tough if you get hit. I can't really think of any other characters though! Pretty much the entire cast you can either edgeguard with back-air or combo really hard so realistically you just gotta not get hit, and mewtwo has the tools to not get hit.

 

[leekslap]

Mewtwo still has no bad matchups just hard matchups!

Roy is NOT HARD. I was crazy and got hit by stupid stuff. You have a bigger sword, really easy time edgeguarding, and combo the crap out of him when he's in the air above you.

Pikachu is still pretty hard when you get hit, but mewtwo definitely can avoid getting hit by pikachu. Pikachu is like.. a worse lucas xD.

Toon Link, Link, ZeRo, and Diddy are probably what I struggle with the most but realistically you'd have to get outplayed to lose. Lucas Sonic and Metaknight might be really really hard but I haven't lost to any lucas/sonic/metaknight recently, so not much matchup experience. I think mewtwo goes even with (or even beats) Pit but I can't even come close to beating ZeRo and well I haven't played any other pits than him and that one set vs armada.

I could go into details as why toon link, link, and diddy are hard but it's late, maybe I'll edit the post or write a guide. Basically Link's boomerang is really good, toon link's bombs are really good, and mewtwo physically can't have good banana usage. Like frame data and how high up a banana is thrown at just mean you can't do ANYTHING cool with a banana. Maybe I still need to work on it but.... yeah I dunno I'm ranting now :D

Otherwise hmm.... falcon hits hard so that can be tough if you get hit. I can't really think of any other characters though! Pretty much the entire cast you can either edgeguard with back-air or combo really hard so realistically you just gotta not get hit, and mewtwo has the tools to not get hit.

I actually think M2 is one of my toughest MUs lol What about ZSS, Ivysaur, Falco, and Mario? Are they tough?

 

[EmuKiller]

mewtwo destroys all of them. ZSS can't kill if you avoid down-smash, ivysaur dies early and has trouble comboing but realistically I haven't played vs many ivysaurs. Falco gets 0-KO'd and plus you have a godlike powershield so he can't laser, and finally up-air beats most of what mario has, plus he can't recover vs back-air.

 

[internetmovieguy]

mewtwo destroys all of them. ZSS can't kill if you avoid down-smash, ivysaur dies early and has trouble comboing but realistically I haven't played vs many ivysaurs. Falco gets 0-KO'd and plus you have a godlike powershield so he can't laser, and finally up-air beats most of what mario has, plus he can't recover vs back-air.

I know he's your main and all but your going to make him more reasonable right? please have mercy on this cast of Emus

 

[InfinityCollision]

It goes without saying that Mewtwo will be nerfed in 3.5, the question is how hard and how it will affect his playstyle and depth of play.

 

[leekslap]

mewtwo destroys all of them. ZSS can't kill if you avoid down-smash, ivysaur dies early and has trouble comboing but realistically I haven't played vs many ivysaurs. Falco gets 0-KO'd and plus you have a godlike powershield so he can't laser, and finally up-air beats most of what mario has, plus he can't recover vs back-air.

I actually meant to say that as a MK player M2 is one of my hardest MUs so I thought it was funny that you thought the opposite.

 

[biggus_dicus]

I've yet to beat a Bowser with Mewtwo.

 

[Master Raven]

vs Bowser is basically whiff punishing his attacks with side B and then you combo the **** out of him and repeat until he's dead. Edgeguard with bair/shadowball/dsmash. take him to medium and large stages as he likes small spaces (but then again so do you, but he will benefit hard from a couple reads since he can kill you super early). don't just mindlessly teleport nair in this matchup against smart bowsers because they'll read and kill you with basically any attack. don't take him to Warioware. I'm ok with fighting him on every other stage although you may want to avoid Yoshi's Story and/or Green Hill Zone if you feel uncomfortable on those.

imo 70/30 adv for Mewtwo

 

[StriderAaron360]

Guys how about Ike?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Ike moves fast with QD tech, but he's very linear. Mewtwo shuts him down at basically any range. If you get some space you can harass him endlessly, and when he tries to approach he has to play a guessing game regarding which direction you'll respond from and how you'll attack. Mewtwo also gimps him pretty easily.

 

[Darkoness21]

Anyone mind telling me the matchup against Sheik and stages good against her?

 

[chaosmasterro]

Any idea on Zelda that spams din's fire and uses Nayru's love when you get close. It's not hard but it slows down my momentum to play her game.

 

[Boiko]

Emukiller will disagree with me but I think MK has one of the best MUs on M2 along with Tink and Link and maybe Diddy. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it's positive, but it's definitely not bad.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Emukiller will disagree with me but I think MK has one of the best MUs on M2 along with Tink and Link and maybe Diddy. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it's positive, but it's definitely not bad.

Link and mk lose hard to mewtwo. Diddy probably slightly loses, tink I think is even. Lucas, pit, diddy, and tink I think are the only ones really capable of calling it close to an even matchup.

 

[leekslap]

Link and mk lose hard to mewtwo. Diddy probably slightly loses, tink I think is even. Lucas, pit, diddy, and tink I think are the only ones really capable of calling it close to an even matchup.

MK kills Mewtwo really early with his up b and can outprioritize Mewtwo and cover options with things like nair. MK is also one of the few characters who can destroy floaties. Please explain Link tho. I really want to know.

 

[foxygrandpa]

MK kills Mewtwo really early with his up b and can outprioritize Mewtwo and cover options with things like nair. MK is also one of the few characters who can destroy floaties. Please explain Link tho. I really want to know.

Mk's combo weight is simply too exploitable by Mewtwo. Up air strings are easy, and he's easy to kill too because of his weight. Up b will hardly come into play unless the mewtwo is bad, as it's difficult to combo mewtwo into it because of his weight and floatiness. If you're above anyone getting combo'd by mewtwo, you're probably doing something wrong. Edgeguards are free, and mewtwo outspaces him hard with tail range. That on top of all of mewtwo's better neutral options make it a losing matchup.

In the link matchup, the punish game is skewed in M2's favor by a lot because of combo weights. It's true that link can wall him out better than some characters, but in the end M2 has so many options that it doesnt make a difference. Approaching with bair will beat out the boomerang, coupled with the fact that M2 is the one who really decides when he wants to attack because of his ridiculous neutral options. Also, the only stage where link actually does well against M2 is final destination, and even that's arguable. On all platform stages, M2 pretty much dominates everyone.

Toon link is the best character at destroying floaties in my opinion. That character is slept on.

 

[leekslap]

Mk's combo weight is simply too exploitable by Mewtwo. Up air strings are easy, and he's easy to kill too because of his weight. Up b will hardly come into play unless the mewtwo is bad, as it's difficult to combo mewtwo into it because of his weight and floatiness. If you're above anyone getting combo'd by mewtwo, you're probably doing something wrong. Edgeguards are free, and mewtwo outspaces him hard with tail range. That on top of all of mewtwo's better neutral options make it a losing matchup.

In the link matchup, the punish game is skewed in M2's favor by a lot because of combo weights. It's true that link can wall him out better than some characters, but in the end M2 has so many options that it doesnt make a difference. Approaching with bair will beat out the boomerang, coupled with the fact that M2 is the one who really decides when he wants to attack because of his ridiculous neutral options. Also, the only stage where link actually does well against M2 is final destination, and even that's arguable. On all platform stages, M2 pretty much dominates everyone.

Toon link is the best character at destroying floaties in my opinion. That character is slept on.

You clearly don't know **** about MK. First of all, there's this thing called DI that helps you escape combos and survive hard hits both of which Meta Knight has a tool that makes it better like his multiple jumps/unbeatable priority and fastfalling speed respectifely. And his recovery is among the best in the game. Loop slides, down b mixups, up b's amazing movement, free high recovery with neutral b, the list goes on and on. "Edgeguards are free" pfffthahaha. What superior neutral? Shadow Balls and Teleports? Didn't I mention that nair beats Teleport and that MK has extra jumps that can help against M2's relatively puny projectile? And rollercoasters are guarenteed if you keep hitting with the center of up air and his up b kills Mewtwo at like, 40% and likely less. Don't believe me? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_VHkB-7Ewg two of the best of each character. Kaos does go Bowser in the second match but switches back in the third.

 

[DMG]

MK puts up a fight compared to other characters, but he still seems to lose to Mewtwo. If there was a rating stronger than 55:45, but weaker than 6:4, I'd say that's Mewtwo's advantage. 58:42 or something lol

 

[foxygrandpa]

You clearly don't know **** about MK. First of all, there's this thing called DI that helps you escape combos and survive hard hits both of which Meta Knight has a tool that makes it better like his multiple jumps/unbeatable priority and fastfalling speed respectifely. And his recovery is among the best in the game. Loop slides, down b mixups, up b's amazing movement, free high recovery with neutral b, the list goes on and on. "Edgeguards are free" pfffthahaha. What superior neutral? Shadow Balls and Teleports? Didn't I mention that nair beats Teleport and that MK has extra jumps that can help against M2's relatively puny projectile? And rollercoasters are guarenteed if you keep hitting with the center of up air and his up b kills Mewtwo at like, 40% and likely less. Don't believe me? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_VHkB-7Ewg two of the best of each character. Kaos does go Bowser in the second match but switches back in the third.

Look at the match. Tyrant is choosing better options most of the time. He is playing well. One set by 2 players does not determine the matchup.
Right, because this magical DI of yours can apparently escape every combo, especially with a fast faller like MK.
His recovery is not the best in the game. It is exploitable and easy to stuff. That's only if you're good though, so you may not be familiar with how to edgeguard it. All mewtwo has to do is back air it. There's no getting past it if you follow him far enough.
Nair beats teleport, that's good to know. But so does every other attack in the game if they start first.
Because everytime mewtwo teleports I have so much time to react anyway. Teleport is such a useless tool.
You've clearly never played a good mewtwo, or are good in general. Lose the condescending tone, it takes away from your already weightless argument.
As for the link, you've only further proved that you don't know how to determine a matchup. Look at the match. The MK is choosing better options most of the time. He is playing well. One set by 2 players does not determine the matchup, even if they are good. If you think that's how this game works, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

 

[leekslap]

Look at the match. Tyrant is choosing better options most of the time. He is playing well. One set by 2 players does not determine the matchup.
Right, because this magical DI of yours can apparently escape every combo, especially with a fast faller like MK.
His recovery is not the best in the game. It is exploitable and easy to stuff. That's only if you're good though, so you may not be familiar with how to edgeguard it. All mewtwo has to do is back air it. There's no getting past it if you follow him far enough.
Nair beats teleport, that's good to know. But so does every other attack in the game if they start first.
Because everytime mewtwo teleports I have so much time to react anyway. Teleport is such a useless tool.
You've clearly never played a good mewtwo, or are good in general. Lose the condescending tone, it takes away from your already weightless argument.
As for the link, you've only further proved that you don't know how to determine a matchup. Look at the match. The MK is choosing better options most of the time. He is playing well. One set by 2 players does not determine the matchup, even if they are good. If you think that's how this game works, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

So you are saying that MK has a bad matchup against Mewtwo is he plays bad? Cuz that really is what it sounds like

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

I'd say Toon Link, the boy is really good against floaties.

 

[Boiko]

So you are saying that MK has a bad matchup against Mewtwo is he plays bad? Cuz that really is what it sounds like

FTR, Foxy is wayyy good as is his brother, Killa Cubs, who plays Meta Knight and has wins over Animal, DJ Nintendo, Gallo. So I'm pretty sure he knows the character very well.

 

[leekslap]

FTR, Foxy is wayyy good as is his brother, Killa Cubs, who plays Meta Knight and has wins over Animal, DJ Nintendo, Gallo. So I'm pretty sure he knows the character very well.

wut lol
EDIT: Just understood your post. If he knows the character so well, why is he saying so much misinformation? And what gives him the right to judge me without ever playing me or watching me? I used to think Mewtwo was the MK killer, and I always lost against the local Mewtwos. But then I theory crafted, and practiced, and looked in the forums and LEARNED the matchup. Isn't that a sign of a good player? He may say I played bad Mewtwos, but if he thinks MK loses to M2 then no offense, but he's played a bad MK. His brother may know MK but my parents are both doctors and I don't know **** about treating patients. I don't care how good he is, I won't respect someone who doesn't respect me. My fundementals are near perfect and I'm among the best in my town. I've also learned a lot about MK by reading the forums, watching videos, and taking notes. I may not be the best, but I want so badly to be the best.

 

[foxygrandpa]

FTR, Foxy is wayyy good as is his brother, Killa Cubs, who plays Meta Knight and has wins over Animal, DJ Nintendo, Gallo. So I'm pretty sure he knows the character very well.

thanks for the back up. I hear you have an impressive ness btw, and I look forward to fighting it some time soon.

 

[Boiko]

wut lol
EDIT: Just understood your post. If he knows the character so well, why is he saying so much misinformation? And what gives him the right to judge me without ever playing me or watching me? I used to think Mewtwo was the MK killer, and I always lost against the local Mewtwos. But then I theory crafted, and practiced, and looked in the forums and LEARNED the matchup. Isn't that a sign of a good player? He may say I played bad Mewtwos, but if he thinks MK loses to M2 then no offense, but he's played a bad MK. His brother may know MK but my parents are both doctors and I don't know **** about treating patients. I don't care how good he is, I won't respect someone who doesn't respect me. My fundementals are near perfect and I'm among the best in my town. I've also learned a lot about MK by reading the forums, watching videos, and taking notes. I may not be the best, but I want so badly to be the best.

Knowing MK and his tools against M2 is still only half the battle. I'm not doubting that you're a good player by any means. I'm just verifying the foxy and Killa Cubs are good players with proven results. Also, sorry, but the parent analogy is terrible, LOL. You don't go to work with them! He trains with his brothers!

FWIW I don't think MK is particularly bad against M2. I think it's only mildly in M2's favor simply because his punish game is much harder and he has an easy time with MK's recovery. But MK definitely has the tools in the neutral.

Also, "near perfect fundamentals" is a bold claim.

 

[InfinityCollision]

No character beats 3.02 Mewtwo, and I'm yet to be convinced that anyone goes even with him anywhere except maybe FD or GHZ.

Whether or not one person playing a certain character can beat another person playing 3.02 Mewtwo is a slightly different story.

My fundementals are near perfect

Nobody believes you.

I'm among the best in my town.

Don't you live in some tiny ass town? Regardless, this has no bearing on the validity of your assertions. Player skill only loosely correlates with being knowledgeable. Even M2K spouts nonsense from time to time.

 

[leekslap]

No character beats 3.02 Mewtwo, and I'm yet to be convinced that anyone goes even with him anywhere except maybe FD or GHZ.

Whether or not one person playing a certain character can beat another person playing 3.02 Mewtwo is a slightly different story.


Nobody believes you.


Don't you live in some tiny *** town? Regardless, this has no bearing on the validity of your assertions. Player skill only loosely correlates with being knowledgeable. Even M2K spouts nonsense from time to time.

My fundementals are good, and I'm starting to think you are a jerk. This is why I don't even want to bother argueing anymore cause its like a back-and-forth attack on each other. I was never argueing that Meta Knight beats Mewtwo, I was argueing Mewtwo doesn't beat Meta Knight. You are not even argueing with logic, you are attacking me and being condescending ( which btw no hard feeling right foxy? real talk sorry ). It seems like I always have the unpopular opinion. I'll stick to the character forums if this continues. I'm sorry ok? I'll stop posting insensitive jokes and arrogant opinions. You are really starting to hurt my feelings now. I always counter pick Mewtwo to Green Hill Zone btw.

 

[InfinityCollision]

My fundementals are good

You didn't say "good", you said "near perfect". Here's the thing about fundamentals: they're the last thing you master, if you can say that one ever truly masters them. I'm reasonably confident that you're nowhere near that level.

I'm starting to think you are a jerk.

When need be, yes.

I was never argueing that Meta Knight beats Mewtwo, I was argueing Mewtwo doesn't beat Meta Knight.

And that would still be wrong. Mewtwo has all the tools he needs to beat MK. Noncommittal and nigh unpunishable movement in neutral, stellar combos, strong kill options in all directions, and he's one of the few characters that can actually gimp MK yet MK cannot effectively gimp Mewtwo. MK's small frame, high mobility, good frame data, and good range keep things somewhat in check, but Mewtwo ultimately still holds the advantage.

Now if you're just talking MK vs telehovernair then yeah, MK might go even. But as I've been saying for months now, that only scratches the surface of what Mewtwo is actually capable of. Given sufficient time we'd see 3.02 Mewtwo move beyond that plateau, but nerfs are coming and 3.5 could be a very different ballgame for the genetic pokemon.

There are very few characters that I think command respect from Mewtwo when both are played optimally. While MK does have a lot going for him relative to what most of the cast can do against Mewtwo, I'd still put it at no less than 60-40 in Mewtwo's favor.

It seems like I always have the unpopular opinion.

Think less about the fact that it's unpopular and more about why it might be unpopular. Is there some factor you haven't considered or that you don't fully understand? Take the opportunity to explore the discrepancy.

I always counter pick Mewtwo to Green Hill Zone btw.

Tell your Mewtwos they should be striking it, they shouldn't be letting you take them there in the first place outside of a Bo5.

 

[leekslap]

You didn't say "good", you said "near perfect". Here's the thing about fundamentals: they're the last thing you master, if you can say that one ever truly masters them. I'm reasonably confident that you're nowhere near that level.


When need be, yes.


And that would still be wrong. Mewtwo has all the tools he needs to beat MK. Noncommittal and nigh unpunishable movement in neutral, stellar combos, strong kill options in all directions, and he's one of the few characters that can actually gimp MK yet MK cannot effectively gimp Mewtwo. MK's small frame, high mobility, good frame data, and good range keep things somewhat in check, but Mewtwo ultimately still holds the advantage.

Now if you're just talking MK vs telehovernair then yeah, MK might go even. But as I've been saying for months now, that only scratches the surface of what Mewtwo is actually capable of. Given sufficient time we'd see 3.02 Mewtwo move beyond that plateau, but nerfs are coming and 3.5 could be a very different ballgame for the genetic pokemon.

There are very few characters that I think command respect from Mewtwo when both are played optimally. While MK does have a lot going for him relative to what most of the cast can do against Mewtwo, I'd still put it at no less than 60-40 in Mewtwo's favor.


Think less about the fact that it's unpopular and more about why it might be unpopular. Is there some factor you haven't considered or that you don't fully understand? Take the opportunity to explore the discrepancy.


Tell your Mewtwos they should be striking it, they shouldn't be letting you take them there in the first place outside of a Bo5.

Why is my opinion that Fox isn't broken unpopular? Why is my opinion that Falco>Fox unpopular? Why is my opinion that Olimar sucks unpopular? Why is my opinion that Link is a god in PM unpopular? I have reasons for all them ( though my Link argument was weak in one thread and strong in another ). Because people have so much bias against Fox. Because I'm challenging a universally accepted tier placement. Because people don't have the balls to admit their character is less than a mid tier ( especially in this game ). Because there hasn't been a high placing Link at all. Tell me what's wrong with what I posted. Most people don't understand what I'm trying to say too. It has to be clearer than day sentences. Maybe its because I read too many books. I'm still trying to figure Ulysses 4th page lol

 

[foxygrandpa]

My fundementals are good, and I'm starting to think you are a jerk. This is why I don't even want to bother argueing anymore cause its like a back-and-forth attack on each other. I was never argueing that Meta Knight beats Mewtwo, I was argueing Mewtwo doesn't beat Meta Knight. You are not even argueing with logic, you are attacking me and being condescending ( which btw no hard feeling right foxy? real talk sorry ). It seems like I always have the unpopular opinion. I'll stick to the character forums if this continues. I'm sorry ok? I'll stop posting insensitive jokes and arrogant opinions. You are really starting to hurt my feelings now. I always counter pick Mewtwo to Green Hill Zone btw.

I've learned the mk matchup by sitting for countless hours on end with one of the best metaknights. Same goes for the link matchup. I don't like bring proved wrong though, so if I didnt have an opinion I felt strongly about, I wouldnt express one at all. I dont think I was really stating incorrect info, just a different opinion.

Of course no hard feelings, its just a forum for a kids game. Can't really judge you based off this. Not to mention both of our arguments will have no basis come Friday.

As for there never being a high placing link, my 14 year old brother beat gurukid, frozen, john numbers, and took a set off emukiller in one tournament. Link is generally unexplored, and my brother is by far the best with him.
And link is godly, but slightly overrated. He can certainly compete with the top characters in this game, but I'm actually convinced samus, ivy, and mario are all currently better than him, along with the broke characters. A lot of characters can actually approach him reliably if they throw out a high priority attack and beat the rang, but no one really plays the matchup well. As a hint, RAR is a great tool against him with most characters. Link's recovery is explicitly broken as is though, I'll give you that. It should be remedied by tomorrow though, so I wouldnt worry about it. He'll be fine in the next version, though probably still high tier.

And for the record, I agree that fox isn't really broken, but I do think he's poorly designed. Having a one frame attack that works as a kill at 0 damage, can infinite most characters across the stage, and leads into one of the most potent kill moves in the game is undeniably dumb, whether or not fox is broken or not. Could you imagine if he was pm-designed character? "This character is so broken, you can't escape shine combos! This game has too many autocombos!"

 

[InfinityCollision]

Why is my opinion that Fox isn't broken unpopular?

Because he is broken. We're more used to dealing with him than most characters, but it doesn't make his kit any less stupid.

Why is my opinion that Falco>Fox unpopular?

Fox's gameplan is more flexible, which carries him against the more diverse cast in PM.

Why is my opinion that Olimar sucks unpopular?

I'll give you that one for at least one more day.

Why is my opinion that Link is a god in PM unpopular?

Because he's not a god. He does possess a generally favorable matchup spread outside the top 10 (he does have losing matchups against not-stupid characters) and even does okay against some of them, but unlike the top characters his weaknesses actually mean something. Counterplay to his projectile game also exists, but is largely underdeveloped.

 

[leekslap]

Because he is broken. We're more used to dealing with him than most characters, but it doesn't make his kit any less stupid.


Fox's gameplan is more flexible, which carries him against the more diverse cast in PM.


I'll give you that one for at least one more day.


Because he's not a god. He does possess a generally favorable matchup spread outside the top 10 (he does have losing matchups against not-stupid characters) and even does okay against some of them, but unlike the top characters his weaknesses actually mean something. Counterplay to his projectile game also exists, but is largely underdeveloped.

The only thing that needs a nerf is Fox's up smash IMO. Or maybe not even since you can read it from a mile away. IDK, but I'm pretty sure YOU never suggested a nerf. I do agree Fox is a little too much.

Oh, I was talking about Melee. So many characters can destroy Falco in PM

Yeah, I won't even main Olimar in 3.5. Dat Ganon float and reflector hand are delicious! I'm glad they chose to showcase Ganon out of all the characters.

Lucas, Falco, ZSS, and maybe Mewtwo or Mario are his slightly disadvantaged matchups. But at least in theory, Link is riduculous.

 

[Boiko]

The only thing that needs a nerf is Fox's up smash IMO. Or maybe not even since you can read it from a mile away. IDK, but I'm pretty sure YOU never suggested a nerf. I do agree Fox is a little too much.

Oh, I was talking about Melee. So many characters can destroy Falco in PM

Yeah, I won't even main Olimar in 3.5. Dat Ganon float and reflector hand are delicious! I'm glad they chose to showcase Ganon out of all the characters.

Lucas, Falco, ZSS, and maybe Mewtwo or Mario are his slightly disadvantaged matchups. But at least in theory, Link is riduculous.

According to a very good Lucas player, GP, you can see his set against Emu on youtube, Link is Lucas' worst MU. But that's for a different thread.

 

[leekslap]

According to a very good Lucas player, GP, you can see his set against Emu on youtube, Link is Lucas' worst MU. But that's for a different thread.

Yeah, I was listing them from worst to better. Falco's only advantage is lasers since they both HARDCORE destroy each other. Speaking of matchups, what bad ones would Mewtwo have in 3.5? You can sort of imagine Mewtwo in 3.5 if you read their design blogposts. Hmm... Well, Teleport is gonna get REALLY nerfed. No more woop woop stalls or free recovery. I still don't know how they'll fix his recovery. Maybe make Teleport slower and more vulnerable? Or even remove his float completely. Make him less floaty I guess? Definetly remove the whole thing where he can still Teleport after being hit. Or just make him really light to compensate for his godlike recovery but I dont think that is happening. IDK, I'm just brainstorming. I think less range on some of his tilts and aerials is a given. They have too much range for their utility, and making them slower is making them useless. So nerfed recovery, nerfed movement, and nerfed range. I'd image he'd be a Samus type character who doesn't totally dominate the neutral or stuff people, ( like spacies ) but they have enough control and options to make it a slower paced game that requires thinking and good decision making ( like chess ). Spacing is much more important to master with Mewtwo than before. His tail in 3.0 was too long and too safe so you can never be in immediate danger if you are decent at timing your tilts. Mewtwo is a light character, so you have to become a better player if you want to avoid KOs. Like other characters, you have to work to get back on stage. Your teleport positions have to be even better than before, and a simple ledge grab from your opponent could convert into covering most of your options, so your mixups have to be better than before.

So! A character that can kill Mewtwo easily and get in. Hmm... Squirtle, Lucas, and Meta Knight are the first to come to mind. Now let's see if my 3.5 Mewtwo matches up with the actual one!