Mewtwo's worst Matchup?

[Outthere]

Victini you're only taking away from your own argument. You offer another round of ammunition against Mewtwo, his nair pressure, yet don't address anything I said except "projectiles do a pretty good job of gimping" which they don't. If a projectile hits Mewtwo out of helplessness he gets another teleport --helping his recovery. I guess you might talking about Samus' missiles. Indeed, if you're hit by one really close to the edge, you'll die. Yet Mewtwo's teleport allows him to dodge missiles the majority of the time, and his fair usually allows for a safe return to the stage (or at the very least a trade).

Also, WHAT are you talking about with the ceilings? I've never heard the PMBR talk about increasing ceilings to nerf a single move. That would be ridiculous. Why not just lower the power of the move? And Marth loses to Mewtwo?? Marth is one of Mewtwo's few reasonably close matchups, due to Marth's sword and ability to actually compete with Mewtwo's range, and the fact that he can actually combo Mewtwo to reasonable percents. Please make some sense next time you try to argue, okay?

Fox kills Mewtwo at low percents, yeah, but I think the general consensus is that Mewtwo's punish game on Fox is just too good for it to be considered even close. A good enough Mewtwo can convert every grab into a 0 death. Fox has to deal with hard punishes on him, but Mewtwo's are just... insane.

 

[victinivcreate1]

How am I taking away from my argument by saying the the only thing that is really broken on Mewtwo is his nair? (Key phrase "only thing").

I read somewhere on the Fox boards that the ceilings were slightly higher than in Melee to slightly nerf Fox's vertical KO power.

Very certain Mewtwo isn't the only character that 0-deaths Fox. I know for a fact that Marth can as well.

And as for the recovery, Mewtwio's recovery isn't the kind where you can wait for him onstage and chill. You actually have to get offstage. Being offstage while edgeguarding is already applying pressure to Mewtwo. You don't necessarily have to attack, and SD. You can just jump off and then up B back on to the ledge, going back to my old point of saying that Mewtwo is kinda dependent on edgesweetspotting.

 

[Scuba Steve]

The only time that a Mewtwo is successfully edgeguarded is when the Mewtwo player ****s up. Teleport offers you a huge number of safe options to get back to stage. Teleport coupled with his huge double jump give him what is arguably the best recovery in the game.

 

[JCOnyx]

You all haven't brought up the character I believe has the best matchup against Mewtwo. Squirtle literally has all the tools to deal with him, not to mention he is so short that it makes Shadow Ball useless. Armor on some of his attacks, especially Nair, beats out teleport Nair attempts by Mewtwo and his superior mobility makes catching the little bugger an extreme pain for him anyways. CC dtilt is the only thing Mewtwo has over him, but it doesn't go that far once the Squirtle starts respecting that option.

 

[Outthere]

If you think jumping off is the best way to edgeguard Mewtwo... Just no. That's either blatant naivete or you really must think I'm stupid. I think Scuba Steve says it right: the only time a Mewtwo is successfully edgeguarded is when the Mewtwo player makes a mistake. Perhaps that's why Victini gets edgeguarded so much?

I think Squirtle has an alright matchup against Mewtwo. At least, I haven't seen a video of either wrecking the other. Also to add to JCOnyx Squirtle has that crazy up smash that probably gives Mewtwo a world of hurt. Also, would perhaps Toon Link be an close matchup? He's faster than Link and can kill off the top. I'm guessing his lack of range would hurt the MU a lot, though. Any Mewtwo players with experience can confirm?

 

[Master Raven]

In my experience characters that are fast have an easier (read: not necessarily advantageous) matchup against M2.

Re: vs Link. Nick Riddle, one of, if not the best, Link players lives about 15 minutes from me so I have a LOT of good experience in this matchup. Beforethen I would get beat by him all the time but just this weekend I was able to take two sets off him: 1st set of grand finals with me coming from losers (I still lost the second set, but I did take one round off), and losers finals at another tournament the next day (I made him go Bowser after winning game 2). IMO this is still a matchup that isn't set in stone yet, but in my recent experience it is starting to look close to even.

Mewtwo's pressure game with teleport, tilts and aerials is great againt Link as Link doesn't have any reliable OOS options besides Up B. Link's fall speed is somewhere around the middle so he is very prone to getting comboed for heavy damage. If you think he's going to go for a tether recovery, you can just react immediately with a dropped bair right after the beginning tether animation and you will hit him, since he has to be at a set distance to make the tether work. Against up B you will want to hit that with a Bair or just wait for it to finish and punish its endlag. There are other options but they are not reliable vs smart Link players who are good at mixing up his recovery options, and never go for a Dair on his up B as it has this crazy gigantic hitbox above him.

On the flip side Link's unique projectile game gives M2 a hard time in some situations; e.g. boomerang being an angular projectile sometimes interrupts some of my options (such as throws or early combos) on its way back if I teleport through it, so sometimes I scare Link from throwing it by mixing up some side b deflects. Same strategy goes for bombs. Be careful with charged arrows if he knocks you off stage as they have very strong knockback, and if you teleport up to avoid them (assuming you're too far to teleport down to edgesnap the edge) it leaves you open for another hit from him, so try to be smart and use your double jump wisely if you get knocked off.

Stage wise I find that M2 does fine any stage, even big flat stages like FD. In fact, Link may have a harder time on bigger stages because his projectiles do have a limited range, so you can make him chase you if you take the lead which opens himself up to more risks.

 

[666blaziken]

I'm not a genius but I can tell you that Ganon probably doesn't have an advantage against this piece of trash character
I don't see see what the hell he can do against a character that can just fly all over stage and basically whatever he wants, has ridiculous combos, some of the dumbest normals in the game with that have good speed and silly range, is close to being immune to edge guarding or being chased down in the air (OR ANYWHERE), and has a projectile. And can kill off a throw.

While mewtwo has a good recovery, he can't out prioritize gannondorf when mewtwo is recovering. Gannondorf's uair comes out really fast, and with good prediction, he can destroy mewtwo with fair or down b. Even better is that gannondorf can combo with his forward b and move about the ground, and he can easily chase mewtwo with wizard's foot if mewtwo tries to camp. Gannondorf has a lot of ground and air options as long as he avoids mewtwo's bair from teleport.

 

[HK_Spadez]

whats the best way to punish tethers with m2?

for exmaple if ur just holding the ledge so that they jump when they close their tether. is it best to just tp onto the stage then punish? or is it better to punish before they try to retract their tether?

 

[Scuba Steve]

whats the best way to punish tethers with m2?

for exmaple if ur just holding the ledge so that they jump when they close their tether. is it best to just tp onto the stage then punish? or is it better to punish before they try to retract their tether?

Hover nair between where they are and where their tether will have to be

 

[Based Gob]

Fox/roy are annoying on some maps but on other maps I have no problems with them. Marth can be generally good against mewtwo. If they're good at spacing and getting you with tippers you can die at really low percents.

 

[NickLeo]

Please someone find a match of a good zss losing to a mewtwo
I have yet to see it happen

 

[Scuba Steve]

Please someone find a match of a good zss losing to a mewtwo
I have yet to see it happen

There's also like only one good ZSS player too

 

[Angrycuban]

tl;dr mewtwo is the best character in the game.

YES

 

[JHoLLa]

I haven't come across any characters that seemed to be less than even. all the games i've lost have been from being outplayed. Mew2's up B along with his fast/safe/long range tilts and the range and combo-ibility of his back air are just too good to give any matchup an unfair advantage. he has a throw that grabs behind him with good range and an upthrow kill at like 120%. might not be the best but hes definitely top 5

 

[victinivcreate1]

I haven't come across any characters that seemed to be less than even. all the games i've lost have been from being outplayed. Mew2's up B along with his fast/safe/long range tilts and the range and combo-ibility of his back air are just too good to give any matchup an unfair advantage. he has a throw that grabs behind him with good range and an upthrow kill at like 120%. might not be the best but hes definitely top 5

Most of Mewtwo's Shootin' Stars (eg aerial>Teleport>aerial) don't actually true combo. Just throw out your fastest aerial and bop em. Then again, if you're a sluggish character, well IDK. Faster characters shouldn't be getting shootin' starred, unless you're a space animal.

Mewtwo's nerfs need to be decrease range of tilts/bair/uair, and either halve the shield damage of each nair hitbox (likely best option), make the final hitbox unable to shieldstab (its the main hitbox that does the shieldstabbing), make the frames between each hit enough for characters to shieldgrab (like between hitboxes 8-9, give like a 9 frame gap between the hitboxes, so characters can shieldgrab, this one is my favorite option tbh), make it not safe on shield, or just remove it (worst option).

Removing attacking out of TP isn't gonna do much really. Because we can still hover nair. Body Spark is the broken move. Change it/fix it/remove it.

 

[Kaosxxxx]

No, honestly you don't need to change anything. Just like fox barely got touches. His shield invincibility is all they took. Why take away his shield poke ability? Fox is still hella good without it. Mewtwo might not be so good if they do this...nerfing mewtwo won't solve the problem..just make it harder to kill spacies. Or force you to pick up sonic for spacies.

 

[victinivcreate1]

No, honestly you don't need to change anything. Just like fox barely got touches. His shield invincibility is all they took. Why take away his shield poke ability? Fox is still hella good without it. Mewtwo might not be so good if they do this...nerfing mewtwo won't solve the problem..just make it harder to kill spacies. Or force you to pick up sonic for spacies.

True. But when was nair used to zero death spacies? The nair to grab hitboxes are kinda hard to actually get down consistently. Nair is a lot like Mach Tornado in a sense. Nerf its shieldstun or make it so we can grab between the 8th and the final hit. Reasonable nerfs to me.

 

[Master Raven]

just nerf weight and extend tail's hurtbox.

that's really all you need to do

also buttgrab is not exclusive to mewtwo but it's a ******** mechanic that should be removed altogether anyway

 

[JHoLLa]

Most of Mewtwo's Shootin' Stars (eg aerial>Teleport>aerial) don't actually true combo. Just throw out your fastest aerial and bop em. Then again, if you're a sluggish character, well IDK. Faster characters shouldn't be getting shootin' starred, unless you're a space animal.

Mewtwo's nerfs need to be decrease range of tilts/bair/uair, and either halve the shield damage of each nair hitbox (likely best option), make the final hitbox unable to shieldstab (its the main hitbox that does the shieldstabbing), make the frames between each hit enough for characters to shieldgrab (like between hitboxes 8-9, give like a 9 frame gap between the hitboxes, so characters can shieldgrab, this one is my favorite option tbh), make it not safe on shield, or just remove it (worst option).

Removing attacking out of TP isn't gonna do much really. Because we can still hover nair. Body Spark is the broken move. Change it/fix it/remove it.

i dont agree with nerfing characters that aren't "broken". only buffing characters that are underpowered. you don't really need true combos with mew becuase of how well he controls the aeriel game. i've found that every time i "woop", the smarter players react by throwing out safe aerials to protect them self. so i upB in a safe place above them and fastfall Fair Nair or Bair as kind of a mixup. i do that on ground aproaches too.

 

[victinivcreate1]

just nerf weight and extend tail's hurtbox.

that's really all you need to do

also buttgrab is not exclusive to mewtwo but it's a ******** mechanic that should be removed altogether anyway

But Mewtwo's a booty warrior!

@ J JHoLLa You'd have to be REALLY good at angling TP for those kinda of mix ups to be effective

 

[JHoLLa]

But Mewtwo's a booty warrior!

@ J JHoLLa You'd have to be REALLY good at angling TP for those kinda of mix ups to be effective

angling and distance are pretty import with Up B follow ups, yea.. but its still viable just have to practice. my whole game is Up aproaches and follow ups with mew2

 

[victinivcreate1]

angling and distance are pretty import with Up B follow ups, yea.. but its still viable just have to practice. my whole game is Up aproaches and follow ups with mew2

My Mewtwo is all about tilt combo starters/spacing, juggles, TP auto cancels (to make my Mewtwo faster), and hard reads.

Some of the TP angles are fairly hard to get however. Like the 30º Teleport

 

[Crezyte]

just nerf weight and extend tail's hurtbox.

that's really all you need to do

also buttgrab is not exclusive to mewtwo but it's a ******** mechanic that should be removed altogether anyway

After playing against you at CEO (I was the GnW CRez) I thought that Mew2 wasn't actually AS BAD as I had previously thought. Not to mean this as an offense but I just studied how mewtwo works and did pretty decently because I was prepared for some of his ridiculous stuff. I did honestly think that getting GnW N-aired at 80-90% should be a kill but you'd survive that, so that's a tad much.

So I'd agree with you about weight and the tail hurtbox, but I'd also like to add that being able to hover out of Up-b means you can be in range of a hover N-air to F-air when a good part of the cast can do nothing about that which is crazy. And not to mention that you can instant spike someone by tele footstooling them.

Also you can DJ out of a 1/4 second hover, which doesn't need to be a thing.


Honestly I like where Mew2 is at and overnerfs would be really sad It would make for most of his MUs to be much more even to do the simple nerfs.

 

[JHoLLa]

My Mewtwo is all about tilt combo starters/spacing, juggles, TP auto cancels (to make my Mewtwo faster), and hard reads.

Some of the TP angles are fairly hard to get however. Like the 30º Teleport

lol i dont run around just TPing i obviously have more to my neutral game. i just depend on them heavily.

 

[The 0ne]

I don't think the startup time is too much to deal with considering Samus's projectiles take roughly as long to come out (Charged shot is faster for sure). Also, the reflection lasts longer than the animation by a substantial amount, so even if you're too early it'll work.

It comes down to accurately reading your opponent and knowing when to be prepared to reflect. If you're at long range, you can bet she's going to be lobbing shots your way. Mid-range, pay attention to positioning - if you were playing that Samus and would think now is a good time to launch a shot, reflect. Don't forget even the weakest shadow ball can intercept both of her missiles, so you have that option too if you want to play it safe. Close range, you're probably better off shielding or dodging, but you could get lucky and snag Samus with it.

As far as staying on her, teleport all the things. Most of the Samuses I see play a heavy aerial game when they're not shooting projectiles or punishing you for getting close on the ground, so you can take advantage of this with effective TP. I will admit I have a really hard time edge guarding a Samus, but I don't think that's Mewtwo's fault.

I'm sorry for being a noob but what's the acronym for TP?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I'm sorry for being a noob but what's the acronym for TP?

Teleport! No worries, acronyms tend to be slightly controversial around here. I find it nearly impossible to reach a middle ground.

 

[victinivcreate1]

-Tough MUs for Mewtwo.

and on certain stages.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

victini, could you explain Snake's matchup? I'm having trouble picturing that one, and haven't fought any decent Snake players in P:M as a frame of reference.

 

[Kaosxxxx]

http://youtu.be/hC9I14zIEn0 this is me kaos vs jonny Westside socals best snake. Just don't make the mistakes I did.

 

[Kaosxxxx]

Another match against disco bunny http://youtu.be/SLphmUUGjkk

 

[victinivcreate1]

Snake has mines and C4 and grendade set ups. He can place them in spots where he thinks Mewtwo will Teleport. He can use Mortar to shoot behind him to counter TPs that face him but try to attack him behind when the Mewtwo reappears. Snake's grab game is god. He can beat woophovernair with Cypher OoS which is frame 1 (correct me if I'm wrong). Snake KOs Mewtwo EARLY, Mewtwo can't really KO Snake till he's over 115%

Also, Snake is fat.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Thanks for the tips and videos! I had no idea Snake could be such a threat to Mewtwo.

 

[xSTx]

Mewtwo's gone be nerfed pretty hardcore next update.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Mewtwo's gone be nerfed pretty hardcore next update.

Aw, no more woop-woop?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Mewtwo's gone be nerfed pretty hardcore next update.

1. Who are you again?
2. How do you know?
3. "Hardcore nerfing" is kinda laughable, since most people want to remove Mewtwo's good attributes and make him suck again, so they don't have to learn another MU.

 

[xSTx]

1. Who are you again?
2. How do you know?
3. "Hardcore nerfing" is kinda laughable, since most people want to remove Mewtwo's good attributes and make him suck again, so they don't have to learn another MU.

It's just a prediction, but many people do complain about the character. His matchup against floaties is pretty unfair though, he can just space up tilt and up air and his range is ridicoulous. I play mewtwo, but even I have a very easy time in some matchups where other characters that I have are required to think.

He's a simple character with a very low learning curve.

 

[victinivcreate1]

It's just a prediction, but many people do complain about the character. His matchup against floaties is pretty unfair though, he can just space up tilt and up air and his range is ridicoulous. I play mewtwo, but even I have a very easy time in some matchups where other characters that I have are required to think.

He's a simple character with a very low learning curve.

Amd yet he has won one tournament. A simple character with no learning curve is Mario. You can actually spam one mive and win. Mewtwo can't spam one move. Mewtwo's OPness comes from the combined attributes that make him so strong.

His tail had no reason to be buffed though. Everything else? Ok.

 

[xSTx]

Mario can't win off of one move, in fact if he overcommits he is dead. Don't get upset because many people feel he's better than most which is true. He has more range the puff's back air in nearly every tilt.

Emukiller said he was just exploiting a broken character anyhow.

What Mewtwo has : large range, projectile, up b without freefall, a float, high damaging throws, quick tilts and only one slow aerial, basically a infinite invincibility technique on edge, great gimper.

What he lacks : weight, ground speed.

Completely balanced and doesn't need to be tweaked one bit.

 

[victinivcreate1]

If I won a tourney with Marth and said I was exploiting a broken character, would I be correct? Emukiller is not necessarily right. I mean Ninja Link beat him after SKTAR, and now Junebug and ZeRo have wins on him.

I said the tail is broken. And so is Teleport Hover nair. After you nerf those things (remove hover after TP and make tail not disjointed at all, and melee range) all he needs are subtle, smart changes.

And basically put a limit to how many times he can woop on the ledge. Make it say 4, after the fourth woop he'll miss the edge.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

He's a simple character with a very low learning curve.

Emukiller said he was just exploiting a broken character anyhow.

Statements like these tell me you haven't personally spent a lot of time with the character.

I wasn't a diehard fan of Mewtwo in Melee, but I've been playing with him since P:M 2.0. He's not even my best character, but he's still my favorite specifically because he's so challenging to use. His learning curve is quite huge, in fact - pro players make the woop-woop look easy, but his tele-hover game is quite challenging to master and leads to a unique, complex approach game. It's no wonder the reward for doing so is so great.

I'd like to see your source where Emukiller said he was "exploiting a broken character." I struggle to believe he actually thinks that. Emukiller won over M2K because he brought a brand new game to the table. Nobody had seen those hover mechanics used that way before, and frankly, M2K and his habits just weren't ready to go up against it. Now that the tech's been revealed, others have had an opportunity to plan for it, and now there are players who have beaten it, as victinivcreate1 has pointed out.

That said, I think I can understand why you - and many others - feel that Mewtwo is broken. It has less to do with Mewtwo's strengths, and more about what he's strong against - specifically, spacies and fast-fallers. More specifically, the most commonly played characters in pro-level tournaments. He looks OP because you frequently see him taking out highly ranked players, but what many fail to see is that he's been designed to counter the characters those highly-ranked players are using.