Mewtwo's Most Underutilized Moves

[LRodC]

Hey guys, this is a topic to discuss Mewtwo's moves that may see little or no use in competitive play, moves that may seem outclassed by others, and moves that are generally underdeveloped in their usage. I feel that to push Mewtwo's metagame to the highest level, we should evaluate and research every move extensively and see how to incorporate them in our play and bring the best out of them, even if their uses are more situational or most of the time held back by a better option. If you also have moves that you personally don't incorporate in your play that may actually be pretty good, feel free to list them and ask for others about advice on how to incorporate them more.

Now, I'll list some of the largest offenders:

Side Tilt: This move might be universally considered as the most useless move in Mewtwo's arsenal as it stands right now. It is usually always outclassed by Down Tilt due to the latter's speed and combo ability, and it is generally considered to be fairly unrewarding on hit due to surprisingly low knockback for a move with its lag. Now what does it do that Down Tilt doesn't?

It does 10/9/8% damage on hit which is double that of down tilt so it can be good for a decent ranged poke, it can jab lock if angled low which can lead to a FCSB if you have one charged (which means baby shadow ball does not completely outclass it in this regard), and it probably can be a nice pivot option for covering behind Mewtwo. I'd like to hear everyone's input on this move and see if we can make the most of it. I wouldn't call it outright terrible, just kind of underwhelming compared to other options.

Side Smash: Like side tilt, this move isn't necessarily poor, but it's pretty underwhelming compared to his other smash attacks. It lacks the FAF that Down Smash has without significant reward to compensate. So what does this move have that others don't?

Unlike Down Smash, it can pivot, and it is also your most powerful option to cover behind you. The hitbox is overall bigger than Down Smash which makes it easier to hit. It also does the most damage out of all of your smashes if tipped and has the most horizontal KB. However, I still struggle to find a consistent use for this move that isn't covered by another one, and it feels like it's in a weird spot in Mewtwo's moveset. I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this one. How can we use it to its full potential?

Jab 2: This move isn't particularly worse than any other basic neutral combo attack, but it is usually always outclassed by jab cancelling, which usually leads to lower risk and higher reward.

However, Jab 2 does have good range to it compared to other jab combos and it does pretty average damage. I wonder if we could utilize this move in any way that's not completely outclassed by another option?

Are there any other moves that you feel are underutilized or that you feel need more development or optimization? This is generally meant to be a thread that makes the most out of every move, so try and find the positives instead of focusing solely on the weaknesses.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I would happily lab Side Smash and compare its results with the others. I won't be able to provide results until Friday, however.

EDIT: I often use Side-Smash as a perfect pivot kill move. Can be very lethal.

 

[Chiroz]

Hey guys, this is a topic to discuss Mewtwo's moves that may see little or no use in competitive play, moves that may seem outclassed by others, and moves that are generally underdeveloped in their usage. I feel that to push Mewtwo's metagame to the highest level, we should evaluate and research every move extensively and see how to incorporate them in our play and bring the best out of them, even if their uses are more situational or most of the time held back by a better option. If you also have moves that you personally don't incorporate in your play that may actually be pretty good, feel free to list them and ask for others about advice on how to incorporate them more.

Now, I'll list some of the largest offenders:

Side Tilt: This move might be universally considered as the most useless move in Mewtwo's arsenal as it stands right now. It is usually always outclassed by Down Tilt due to the latter's speed and combo ability, and it is generally considered to be fairly unrewarding on hit due to surprisingly low knockback for a move with its lag. Now what does it do that Down Tilt doesn't?

It does 10/9/8% damage on hit which is double that of down tilt so it can be good for a decent ranged poke, it can jab lock if angled low which can lead to a FCSB if you have one charged (which means baby shadow ball does not completely outclass it in this regard), and it probably can be a nice pivot option for covering behind Mewtwo. I'd like to hear everyone's input on this move and see if we can make the most of it. I wouldn't call it outright terrible, just kind of underwhelming compared to other options.

Side Smash: Like side tilt, this move isn't necessarily poor, but it's pretty underwhelming compared to his other smash attacks. It lacks the same amount of knockback as the others, and it has more FAF than Down Smash without significant reward to compensate. So what does this move have that others don't?

Unlike Down Smash, it can pivot, and it is also your most powerful option to cover behind you. The hitbox is overall bigger than Down Smash which makes it easier to hit. It also does the most damage out of all of your smashes if tipped. However, I still struggle to find a consistent use for this move that isn't covered by another one, and it feels like it's in a weird spot in Mewtwo's moveset. I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this one. How can we use it to its full potential?

Jab 2: This move isn't particularly worse than any other basic neutral combo attack, but it is usually always outclassed by jab cancelling, which usually leads to lower risk and higher reward.

However, Jab 2 does have good range to it compared to other jab combos and it does pretty average damage. I wonder if we could utilize this move in any way that's not completely outclassed by another option?

Are there any other moves that you feel are underutilized or that you feel need more development or optimization? This is generally meant to be a thread that makes the most out of every move, so try and find the positives instead of focusing solely on the weaknesses.

F-Tilt is good for pivoting, most F-Tilts suffer the same problem where they are only good for this type of spacing.

F-Smash is much stronger than D-Smash as a straight horizontal kill, I don't know why you think that isn't so. In fact D-Smash is basically just as strong as sourspot F-Smash (or slightly stronger). F-Smash also has more range, Mewtwo shifts his hurtbox backwards and can be pivoted (the last one being really important to punish predictable dash ins). It also hits opponents who are in the air unlike D-Smash.

I use F-Smash much more than I do D-Smash since D-Smash is basically just used for baits for people who don't know the matchup or for "relatively safe" reads.

I would happily lab Side Smash and compare its results with the others. I won't be able to provide results until Friday, however.

EDIT: I often use Side-Smash as a perfect pivot kill move. Can be very lethal.

Why PP F-Smash if it has a property of being able to be pivoted at any point during a dash?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I use F-Smash much more than I do D-Smash since D-Smash is basically just used for baits for people who don't know the matchup or for "relatively safe" reads.

Phew! I'm glad I'm not the only one.

 

[Chiroz]

Phew! I'm glad I'm not the only one.

That said I am trying to change my habits to start using D-Smash a little more since it's safer. F-Smash still has plenty of uses though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Add Disable. It just needs to be labbed and discussed more, as it is generally put down as bad.
Also, Final hit Nair almost true combos into Disable at low percents. I need to test it with someone. I used ZSS and and mashed Disable and Jab in 1/4th speed to see if it worked, and the main problem was that Disable activated first, but took too long to reach ZSS, thus, more labbing to find a way to get closer and possibly negate it.

Ftilt is pretty good when angled down for catching a ledge-snap. A bit better then Dsmash at least. Safer and such, leaves you in better positioning.

I have Fsmashes kill percents on Mario in the guide, and I think I have them on Shiek too if anyone wants them.

 

[Aninymouse]

Yeah, I'd say that Disable is the most important move to more liberally incorporate into the metagame.

 

[LRodC]

F-Tilt is good for pivoting, most F-Tilts suffer the same problem where they are only good for this type of spacing.

F-Smash is much stronger than D-Smash as a straight horizontal kill, I don't know why you think that isn't so. In fact D-Smash is basically just as strong as sourspot F-Smash (or slightly stronger). F-Smash also has more range, Mewtwo shifts his hurtbox backwards and can be pivoted (the last one being really important to punish predictable dash ins). It also hits opponents who are in the air unlike D-Smash.

I use F-Smash much more than I do D-Smash since D-Smash is basically just used for baits for people who don't know the matchup or for "relatively safe" reads.

Why PP F-Smash if it has a property of being able to be pivoted at any point during a dash?

I didn't even know that about side smash actually, thanks for pointing that out. I usually avoid it due to the safety being inferior to down smash, but I'll have to experiment more with it. Is tipped side smash better for Disable punishes (if they're too short for up smash)? It's good to know that both have a purpose.

Add Disable. It just needs to be labbed and discussed more, as it is generally put down as bad.
Also, Final hit Nair almost true combos into Disable at low percents. I need to test it with someone. I used ZSS and and mashed Disable and Jab in 1/4th speed to see if it worked, and the main problem was that Disable activated first, but took too long to reach ZSS, thus, more labbing to find a way to get closer and possibly negate it.

Yeah, I agree with Disable. It's usually seen as poor by the unaware and uninformed, and even a lot of Mewtwo mains forget about this move entirely. The neutral air potentially setting up into it could potentially be huge. We should talk about ways to potentially set this move up and how to utilize it in general. Could it be a potential ledge option? Can we use it for stuffing approaches? Could we utilize it at lower percents? Also, we should discuss the most optimal punishes when we land a Disable. Is a smash attack always appropriate? If we need to use a smash, which one is most appropriate?

Neutral Air is an attack that most Mewtwos are perfectly fine with, and they use it often for its purpose of catching air dodges, gimping, and as a ledge option. However, the type of stuff you're labbing could potentially make this move completely bonkers. Being able to control where the opponent goes and potential options out of the prematurely ended attack could potentially push Mewtwo a tier up by itself. Imagine kill confirms by neutral air to grab -> up throw, or neutral air to disable. These applications for the move definitely need to be explored more.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I didn't even know that about side smash actually, thanks for pointing that out. I usually avoid it due to the safety being inferior to down smash, but I'll have to experiment more with it. Is tipped side smash better for Disable punishes (if they're too short for up smash)? It's good to know that both have a purpose.


Yeah, I agree with Disable. It's usually seen as poor by the unaware and uninformed, and even a lot of Mewtwo mains forget about this move entirely. The neutral air potentially setting up into it could potentially be huge. We should talk about ways to potentially set this move up and how to utilize it in general. Could it be a potential ledge option? Can we use it for stuffing approaches? Could we utilize it at lower percents? Also, we should discuss the most optimal punishes when we land a Disable. Is a smash attack always appropriate? If we need to use a smash, which one is most appropriate?

Neutral Air is an attack that most Mewtwos are perfectly fine with, and they use it often for its purpose of catching air dodges, gimping, and as a ledge option. However, the type of stuff you're labbing could potentially make this move completely bonkers. Being able to control where the opponent goes and potential options out of the prematurely ended attack could potentially push Mewtwo a tier up by itself. Imagine kill confirms by neutral air to grab -> up throw, or neutral air to disable. These applications for the move definitely need to be explored more.

Nair-Grab is a true combo.
Nair-Usmash is a true combo (Both at kill Percents)
Landing Nair-fair might kill, still testing
Nair-fair can kill with bad DI/proper placement and timing.

I have most of the videos up in my thread. I just need to finish labbing final and last two hits of Nair.

I was trying to find a way for Disable to cover multiple ledge options, but they aren't very safe. It is very rewarding off a read, but Usmash can cover more options usually.

Lower percents is a free Dtilt. and dtilt or Falling Uair/Fair is the optimal punish below 70ish. Dtilt-Uair is good after 70%, but a sweetspot Fsmash fully charged will kill then.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I watched a tournament video of Blue at Grand Finals making excellent usage of Disable. Even if it is a read move, it can definitely be used to get early kills.

 

[Chiroz]

Disable is a good move with limited uses.

I didn't even know that about side smash actually, thanks for pointing that out. I usually avoid it due to the safety being inferior to down smash, but I'll have to experiment more with it. Is tipped side smash better for Disable punishes (if they're too short for up smash)? It's good to know that both have a purpose.


Yeah, I agree with Disable. It's usually seen as poor by the unaware and uninformed, and even a lot of Mewtwo mains forget about this move entirely. The neutral air potentially setting up into it could potentially be huge. We should talk about ways to potentially set this move up and how to utilize it in general. Could it be a potential ledge option? Can we use it for stuffing approaches? Could we utilize it at lower percents? Also, we should discuss the most optimal punishes when we land a Disable. Is a smash attack always appropriate? If we need to use a smash, which one is most appropriate?

Neutral Air is an attack that most Mewtwos are perfectly fine with, and they use it often for its purpose of catching air dodges, gimping, and as a ledge option. However, the type of stuff you're labbing could potentially make this move completely bonkers. Being able to control where the opponent goes and potential options out of the prematurely ended attack could potentially push Mewtwo a tier up by itself. Imagine kill confirms by neutral air to grab -> up throw, or neutral air to disable. These applications for the move definitely need to be explored more.

You can hit anyone with U-Smash if you slide into them. General rule for me is to do F-Smash if the opponent is at tipper range and less than 33% stage distance away from the ledge Mewtwo is facing. Otherwise "positioning" yourself for the tipper or going for a pivot will just take away time that you could have been charging the smash (so just go for U-Smash, which also kills earlier).


Also if the opponent is at the very edge (caught his getup) then I also go for F-Smash

 

[LRodC]

Nair-Grab is a true combo.
Nair-Usmash is a true combo (Both at kill Percents)
Landing Nair-fair might kill, still testing
Nair-fair can kill with bad DI/proper placement and timing.

I have most of the videos up in my thread. I just need to finish labbing final and last two hits of Nair.

I was trying to find a way for Disable to cover multiple ledge options, but they aren't very safe. It is very rewarding off a read, but Usmash can cover more options usually.

Lower percents is a free Dtilt. and dtilt or Falling Uair/Fair is the optimal punish below 70ish. Dtilt-Uair is good after 70%, but a sweetspot Fsmash fully charged will kill then.

I have to practice n-air more now after seeing those videos. It's definitely easier than just seeing the text.

So what do you guys think about Jab 2/rapid jab? Is there any good use for it really? Sometimes I use it, but not always on purpose.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I have to practice n-air more now after seeing those videos. It's definitely easier than just seeing the text.

So what do you guys think about Jab 2/rapid jab? Is there any good use for it really? Sometimes I use it, but not always on purpose.

It deals 12%? It is pretty easy to SDI out of, so don't extend it unless the opponent never SDI's. decent percent, especially as a mix up so that you don't give away your after jab 1 go-to option. Not Mewtwo's best move, and outclassed to some extent by double Dtilt for frame trapping or something like that.

 

[Chiroz]

I have to practice n-air more now after seeing those videos. It's definitely easier than just seeing the text.

So what do you guys think about Jab 2/rapid jab? Is there any good use for it really? Sometimes I use it, but not always on purpose.

I basically only do Jab2 if I missed a Jab1 (or hit a shield) and I feel like my opponent is going to try and punish me for it. Other than that, I don't really have a use for Jab2.

 

[Browny]

If you get your jab 1 shielded and you react quick enough sometimes its worth it, against certain characters, to just hold the finishing jab down and dont end it. If you drop it and the enemy shields it they can get a grab which could be quite bad.

To punish it characters either have to have a powerful projectile or jump over you to aerial. Characters like sheik dont really have a strong punish at all to this, getting a fair or dair at worst (needles if they are already charged). Bouncing fish might lose to the jab. Roy is perhaps another charcter without a strong punish at all to this, especially at low % you would much rather take a tipper fsmash than have him run up and get a grab combo on you.

 

[sparkaura]

Jab 2 has some surprisingly good range, it also eats projectiles like thunder jolt. I sometimes use it to punish a spot dodge when I feel like I cant punish with something else.

 

[Mr. B]

Yeah, I agree with Disable. It's usually seen as poor by the unaware and uninformed, and even a lot of Mewtwo mains forget about this move entirely. The neutral air potentially setting up into it could potentially be huge. We should talk about ways to potentially set this move up and how to utilize it in general. Could it be a potential ledge option? Can we use it for stuffing approaches? Could we utilize it at lower percents? Also, we should discuss the most optimal punishes when we land a Disable. Is a smash attack always appropriate? If we need to use a smash, which one is most appropriate?

Disable has worked for me a couple of times when I was being edgeguarded. They still go to sleep even if you hit them in the feet, which is great for getting a bit of space and time to get back onstage alongside a cheeky FAir.

I also use disable as a mix up after approaching a few times with FAirs or NAirs, I FF drop short of actually approaching, and the fools rush forward thinking I have made a mistake... but actually I was just going through the startup for disable, which has surprisingly awesome range.

to break up your opponents flow, its fun to use it in the air as the approach you. I have annoyed a few sheiks this way, since its a good disjoint and knocks them back, giving me a bit more SB charging time. shame about the low damage...

When you have just lost a stock to someone who is up at 70+% and are enjoying your startup invincibility, you could do a lot worse than try for a disable...

Not too useful at low % though (as far as I can tell). Free grab?

 

[E.Lopez]

I have most of the videos up in my thread. I just need to finish labbing final and last two hits of Nair.

Sorry, I'm still finding my way around here on the Mewtwo board; which thread has the videos?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Sorry, I'm still finding my way around here on the Mewtwo board; which thread has the videos?

The thread titled 'VS Recorder.'

 

[LRodC]

The thread titled 'VS Recorder.'

Actually, I think he was talking about the n-air knockback videos, which are located in the thread called "Nair Knockback Guide".

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Actually, I think he was talking about the n-air knockback videos, which are located in the thread called "Nair Knockback Guide".

Oops. My bad. I'll have to be more in-context next time I spew answers. I'm gonna do a lot of labbing for both my mains on Friday, including F-Smash's effectiveness on various characters, of which I plan to do first. I know Sonicninja115 already has kill percents on Mario and Shiek, but I'd like to test it with other characters and ultimately compare it to other options so that we can better think up of good ways to utilize it.

The characters I'm going to test include: ,,, or , , and possibly .

These characters represent various weight classes - Average, Fast Faller, Heavy, Light, Floaty, and Top Tier characters are included for reference's sake. I might also include and /, as while Ganondorf is a heavyweight character, Bowser is the heaviest horizontally (and overall, I think. He places 3rd vertically) and DK and DDD are tied for heaviest vertically.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sorry, I'm still finding my way around here on the Mewtwo board; which thread has the videos?

The Nair Knockback thread. It should be pretty close to the top of the list.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Oops. My bad. I'll have to be more in-context next time I spew answers. I'm gonna do a lot of labbing for both my mains on Friday, including F-Smash's effectiveness on various characters, of which I plan to do first. I know Sonicninja115 already has kill percents on Mario and Shiek, but I'd like to test it with other characters and ultimately compare it to other options so that we can better think up of good ways to utilize it.

The characters I'm going to test include: ,,, or , , and possibly .

These characters represent various weight classes - Average, Fast Faller, Heavy, Light, Floaty, and Top Tier characters are included for reference's sake. I might also include and /, as while Ganondorf is a heavyweight character, Bowser is the heaviest horizontally (and overall, I think. He places 3rd vertically) and DK and DDD are tied for heaviest vertically.

Could you test them on the edge of FD? I did my percents for horizontal killing moves there, you don't have to, but it would be nice. Also, remember that Fsmash has a sweetspot, though you probably already know that.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Could you test them on the edge of FD? I did my percents for horizontal killing moves there, you don't have to, but it would be nice. Also, remember that Fsmash has a sweetspot, though you probably already know that.

Sure thing. I was planning to do both center of FD and edge of FD, with Mewtwo placed appropriately for the F-smash sweetspot, sourspot, and point blank respectively. I know by nature that sourspot and point-blank will not nearly be as impressive as sweetspot, but it never hurts to have the numbers there for reference.

. I have also decided that I might add , and either or , since Bowser is the heaviest horizontally (and overall, iirc, placing as the 3rd heaviest character vertically) while DDD and DK are tied for heaviest vertically.

 

[LRodC]

This reminds me, I should get to work on updating my up throw kill percents chart for the new weights and Corrin/Bayonetta. I need to fix the Miis up as well, but they're difficult to get consistent numbers for. I might do percent ranges for them as it's less work.

 

[meleebrawler]

I basically only do Jab2 if I missed a Jab1 (or hit a shield) and I feel like my opponent is going to try and punish me for it. Other than that, I don't really have a use for Jab2.

It's the jab followup of choice against low-percent fastfallers like Fox and Falcon. Otherwise you'll likely just get jabbed out of any fancier followup.

 

[Chiroz]

It's the jab followup of choice against low-percent fastfallers like Fox and Falcon. Otherwise you'll likely just get jabbed out of any fancier followup.

They can shield Jab2 if they DI downwards. I don't try any followups but grab against fast fallers at low %s.

 

[Metalex]

Aside from what has already been mentioned here i think Dair is a move that is very underutilized and i think i've almost never seen someone use it outside of spike attempts.
It autocancels on shorthop and deals a quite good chunk of damage while having a lot of possible combos/followups so there's probably more situations where Dair could be utilized than what we currently see.

 

[Mr. B]

Aside from what has already been mentioned here i think Dair is a move that is very underutilized and i think i've almost never seen someone use it outside of spike attempts.
It autocancels on shorthop and deals a quite good chunk of damage while having a lot of possible combos/followups so there's probably more situations where Dair could be utilized than what we currently see.

I like to SH(vertical) AD DAir when they come in with a dash attack...

 

[Mr. B]

Side Tilt: This move might be universally considered as the most useless move in Mewtwo's arsenal as it stands right now. It is usually always outclassed by Down Tilt due to the latter's speed and combo ability, and it is generally considered to be fairly unrewarding on hit due to surprisingly low knockback for a move with its lag. Now what does it do that Down Tilt doesn't?

It does 10/9/8% damage on hit which is double that of down tilt so it can be good for a decent ranged poke, it can jab lock if angled low which can lead to a FCSB if you have one charged (which means baby shadow ball does not completely outclass it in this regard), and it probably can be a nice pivot option for covering behind Mewtwo. I'd like to hear everyone's input on this move and see if we can make the most of it. I wouldn't call it outright terrible, just kind of underwhelming compared to other options

Today I found a surprisingly pleasing use for FTilt. A little while back I started mixing up my aerial approaches with FF landing into grab (only just learned the name "Tomohawk" though!) but today I fell a bit short and accidentally input FTilt. Dude thought I made a mistake and ran right into the hitbox at the trunk of my tail.

Until now Ftilt has just been too slow, and outclassed by DTilt... I don't use it enough to learn proper spacing with it, I feel like the C-stick is too clunky to get it out reliably, and with regaular stick I often misinput and get FSmash or DA. I don't seem to have that problem when landing though, since I just keep the stick pushed in that direction and buffer the attack during landing lag.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Labbed a little with F-Smash last night since I had some free time. Not some full tests, and I don't have all my numbers with me right now, but it seems that F-Smash is quite a bit more lethal at or even near the ledge than D-Smash or (obviously) U-Smash. Will post results later this evening!

EDIT: Granted, lethality doesn't mean viability. Just that, in terms of raw kill power, F-Smash appears dominant.

 

[Swoops]

Aside from what has already been mentioned here i think Dair is a move that is very underutilized and i think i've almost never seen someone use it outside of spike attempts.
It autocancels on shorthop and deals a quite good chunk of damage while having a lot of possible combos/followups so there's probably more situations where Dair could be utilized than what we currently see.

I'm really glad someone mentioned DAir. I think this move is probably at the top of the list for "underutilized but very good."

It all but ties in power with some of the strongest DAirs, doing 14% on grounded and 15% on airborne, but it has much less lag than many of those other DAirs. Frame/damage wise, it's pretty easy to compare with Ryu's DAir. On shield, that means it's remarkably safe if spaced well. The main difference vs Ryu's is start up, since M2's DAir is definitely slower at 15f start up vs Ryu's 8 frames. However, M2 does have an air speed advantage.

Also, like Metalex noted, the combo opportunities are fantastic. If you hit it low enough you essentially get everything you get off of close DTilt and possibly more...not to mention you started your combo with a 14% move. DAir > DJ UAir > FAir alone can deal 38% fresh.

Mr. B you might have just mis-typed, but SHAD > DAir shouldn't work. DAir's start up just barely doesn't come out after a short hop air dodge.

FH AD > FF DAir is another story though. I've been using that a lot now.

 

[Mr. B]

Mr. B you might have just mis-typed, but SHAD > DAir shouldn't work. DAir's start up just barely doesn't come out after a short hop air dodge...

Yes Swoops, that FH.AD.FF.DAir is what I meant. SH.DAir is something that I also try to do, but I often take a hitbox to the hurtbox in the process.

 

[godogod]

I agree about down air. I didn't use it all that often, but since patch 1.1.3, its so much easier to land now due to less landing lag and more range(hitbox moving down now). Its really fun to use.

 

[LRodC]

I also vouch on down air being an awesome move. I was debating on whether or not to put it in the OP because I was unsure of what people thought of it. It's not as insanely good as Ryu's, but it's good. It's very easy to land, it's powerful, and it has a ton of hitbox frames compared to pre-patch.

If you guys have any setups with this move, feel free to post some. I'd like to incorporate it into my playstyle more.

 

[Chiroz]

Today I found a surprisingly pleasing use for FTilt. A little while back I started mixing up my aerial approaches with FF landing into grab (only just learned the name "Tomohawk" though!) but today I fell a bit short and accidentally input FTilt. Dude thought I made a mistake and ran right into the hitbox at the trunk of my tail.

Until now Ftilt has just been too slow, and outclassed by DTilt... I don't use it enough to learn proper spacing with it, I feel like the C-stick is too clunky to get it out reliably, and with regaular stick I often misinput and get FSmash or DA. I don't seem to have that problem when landing though, since I just keep the stick pushed in that direction and buffer the attack during landing lag.

This isn't how you should analyze a move though. What you should be thinking is: "Could I have used another move that would have achieved more in that scenario?"

In the scenario you wrote down, D-Tilt, Jab, Grab or any smash would have definitely achieved more (possible U-Tilt, SH F-Air, SH N-Air could have also achieved more).

The only scenario where there's no move that outclasses F-Tilt is pivoting from a run. Otherwise I think it's almost basically useless.

 

[Ludwigvongamer (Mobtink)]

I'm glad I'm not the only one here who likes disable. Especially with that Double jump cancel. Good up smash after that and they're done.

 

[Mr. B]

This isn't how you should analyze a move though. What you should be thinking is: "Could I have used another move that would have achieved more in that scenario?"

In the scenario you wrote down, D-Tilt, Jab, Grab or any smash would have definitely achieved more (possible U-Tilt, SH F-Air, SH N-Air could have also achieved more).

You might be right with DTilt, but in that specific situation Jab wouldn't have the range, and Smashes have too long a startup. DTilt is natch for combo strings, but sometimes you might not want to commit to follow up particularly if your opponent is hot with combo breaking. FTilt knockback served me quite nicely here and left me with a bit of space to charge SB and reposition myself to start a wall of BAir.

Basically, aiming for combo strings is good, but depending on your opponent it might be worth being more patient. Landing FTilt gives you a bit more space and takes the pressure off. If only it came out a bit quicker...

 

[Chiroz]

You might be right with DTilt, but in that specific situation Jab wouldn't have the range, and Smashes have too long a startup. DTilt is natch for combo strings, but sometimes you might not want to commit to follow up particularly if your opponent is hot with combo breaking. FTilt knockback served me quite nicely here and left me with a bit of space to charge SB and reposition myself to start a wall of BAir.

Basically, aiming for combo strings is good, but depending on your opponent it might be worth being more patient. Landing FTilt gives you a bit more space and takes the pressure off. If only it came out a bit quicker...

F-Air and U-Air both have more knockback than F-Tilt and give you more space.

If you hit your opponent with the Trunk of the tail as you claim then you definitely would have been in range for a jab or grab.

Also if your opponent dashed into the hitbox unless he was Fox or MK than dash attack and dash grab would not have been fast enough to beat out F-Smash (although I guess they could have technically shielded if they saw the F-Smash coming).


As I said, many other moves would have served a better purpose in this scenario. It's not that F-Tilt is bad, it's just that there's very few scenarios where F-Tilt is actually the optimal choice.

 

[Mr. B]

F-Air and U-Air both have more knockback than F-Tilt and give you more space.

If you hit your opponent with the Trunk of the tail as you claim then you definitely would have been in range for a jab or grab.

Also if your opponent dashed into the hitbox unless he was Fox or MK than dash attack and dash grab would not have been fast enough to beat out F-Smash (although I guess they could have technically shielded if they saw the F-Smash coming).


As I said, many other moves would have served a better purpose in this scenario. It's not that F-Tilt is bad, it's just that there's very few scenarios where F-Tilt is actually the optimal choice.

You are right, I suppose. The instance I describe is very unusual, and its likely that my opponent was rubbish (it was FG, after all) and failed to input his attack in time. I would never have considered inputting Jab or Grab at that distance, and FSmash would have normally been my goto input in that state, but the FTilt was a fortuitous error. Regardless, I will keep working on using it as a mixup.