Mewtwo the Ping Pong Master

[Thinkaman]

No character in any Smash game has ever truly had a strong projectile and a reflector until now. Ness, Mii Gunner, and Villager all have disqualifying traits to their projectiles for purposes of this discussion.) It is a unique combination; something is normally "against the rules." (This is on top of his projectile being both very powerful and very safe, though low damage without charge.)

This means that Mewtwo can force approaches better than almost anyone. Letting him charge up and spam his super-safe 25% KO-ing death ball is a non-starter. Trying to harass him with poke is also a non-starter, though the extent to which reflectors can combat this varies as always.

But not only does Mewtwo uniquely enjoy both of these neutral advantages, he also benefits from the unique dynamic of having both with regards to enemy reflectors.

Mewtwo has a favored sweetspot range where he can throw a Shadow Ball, and Confusion it back if it is reflected! No other character in the game does this with a KO-able projectile, except Villager in very isolated cases with default Timber + Pocket.

Mewtwo's Confusion is a 1.4x multiplier. Many of you know where this is going.

Once a projectile reaches 50% (so for Mewtwo, a 2.0x multiplier), it cannot be reflected again. This means if Shadow Ball is reflected by an ordinary 1.5x reflector, and Mewtwo Confusions it back, it is now at 2.1x and will break any further Reflect attempts.

Taking into account the enemy reflector ratio...

• 2.1x Fox Amplifying Reflector
• 2.0x (Dark) Pit Amplifying Orbitars (safe on break)
• 2.0x Ness F-Smash
• 1.8x R.O.B. Reflector Arm
• 1.5x (Dark) Pit Guardian Orbitars (safe on break)
  
• 1.5x (Dr.) Mario Cape (default or Gust)
• 1.5x R.O.B. Rotor Arm (default or Backwards)
• 1.5x Mii Swordfighter Rainbow Slash
  
• 1.4x Fox Reflector (default or Big)
• 1.4x Mii Gunner Echo Reflector
• 1.4x Mewtwo Confusion
• 1.25x Nayru's Love (default or Rejection)
• 1.2x Falco Reflector
• 1.2 Mega Man Skull Barrier (can only reflect up to 25% instead of 50%, so moot point)
• 1.17x Palutena Reflect Barrier
• 1.0x Falco Accele-Reflector (increases projectile speed significantly)

...Mewtwo can select a strength of Shadow Ball that will allow him to win the ping pong (ideally max 25% where possible.) Consult the following chart:

And of course, it can still be negated/absorbed by the usual suspects:

• Ness PSI Magnet (default or Forward)
• Mr. G&W Oil Panic
• Falco Reflector Void
• Rosalina Gravitation Pull or Guardian Luma
• Villager Pocket (all)
  • Pocket resets the multiplier to 1.9x. Villager can always Pocket Shadow Ball, but you can always reflect it back.
• Mii Gunner Absorbing Vortex

 

[Conn1496]

This is literally the best info on Mewtwo's Shadow Ball reflect shenanigans I've seen.

One thing I will say though is that personally, I thought it broke through Fox's reflector when you reflected it back fully charge->reflected, but the math here says otherwise... I've done it a couple of times now, so it definately feels that way. I would look into that personally, but I don't have a test partner for it.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is literally the best info on Mewtwo's Shadow Ball reflect shenanigans I've seen.

One thing I will say though is that personally, I thought it broke through Fox's reflector when you reflected it back fully charge->reflected, but the math here says otherwise... I've done it a couple of times now, so it definately feels that way. I would look into that personally, but I don't have a test partner for it.

Oh! Fresh bonus from stale moves!

Edit: I updated the chart to take this into account. Thanks!

 

[Conn1496]

Oh! Fresh bonus from stale moves!

Oh? There something in the OP you didn't factor into the math then? Haha, you'll have to explain this one to me, honestly. ^^;

 

[Thinkaman]

Attacks in actual play do less damage based on how many times you have hit another player with the move in your most recent 9 attacks since your last death. If that number is 0, you deal 105% of the normal damage. This system is known as Stale Moves, and this is referred to as a bonus for moves being "fresh." Attacks in training mode always do 100%.

For example, if you have never hit an opponent with a Shadow Ball in a given life, a fully charged one will deal 26.25%--not 25%.

This is constantly an oversight in various types of data collection efforts, one way or the other.

 

[Conn1496]

Attacks in actual play do less damage based on how many times you have hit another player with the move in your most recent 9 attacks since your last death. If that number is 0, you deal 105% of the normal damage. This system is known as Stale Moves, and this is referred to as a bonus for moves being "fresh." Attacks in training mode always do 100%.

For example, if you have never hit an opponent with a Shadow Ball in a given life, a fully charged one will deal 26.25%--not 25%.

This is constantly an oversight in various types of data collection efforts, one way or the other.

Well, that's news to me. Excuse me for being such a casual. lol I'll have to remember this for my Mewtwo play.

 

[---]

Started to notice this when fighting Lvl 9 Marios and Foxs.

The recoil and early start up frames of Shadow Ball/Confusion really help increase safety.

EDIT: Man is it satisfying.

 

[pikazz]

so, if I understand this right, Mewtwo will be able to reflect each Shadow Ball back except for Fox Ampli reflector? or can he do it back? o:

thats actually really sweet :'3

 

[MagiusNecros]

What about Close range reflecting the Shadow Ball back? I've reflected a reflected Shadow Ball multiple times in one confusion. Against palutena who has a weak multiplier anyway but still.

 

[Conn1496]

so, if I understand this right, Mewtwo will be able to reflect each Shadow Ball back except for Fox Ampli reflector? or can he do it back? o:

thats actually really sweet :'3

Any reflector that gives 1.4x damage and above can be broken through with a fresh, reflected, fully charged Shadow Ball.
Any reflector that gives 1.5x or above doesn't need to be fresh, but does need to be fully charged to break it.
1.3x and lower needs multiple reflections, or you'll end up having your own reflector broken.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So what happens if you get multiple reflects off of one confusion like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBj8jfw5luI

Or would it add up in this example being 1.17+1.4+1.17+1.4 = 5.14

Even then it goes pass that 2.0 threshold and still reflected a third time anyway. Off of one confusion.

 

[Conn1496]

So what happens if you get multiple reflects off of one confusion like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBj8jfw5luI

Or would it add up in this example being 1.17+1.4+1.17+1.4 = 5.14

Even then it goes pass that 2.0 threshold and still reflected a third time anyway. Off of one confusion.

It's % dependant. 25% * 1.17 * 1.4 * 1.17 is 47-ish%. So the 4th reflect is the one that surpasses 50% and breaks the reflector.

[Edit]: Here's how you calculate the threshold:
You basically have to ignore the extra '1's because they multiply the damage by 1.
(1).17 +
+ (1).4 = .57 ex damage
+ (1).17 = .74 ex damage
+ (1).4 = 1.14 ex dam.

I'm sure that's how it is anyway.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's % dependant. 25% * 1.17 * 1.4 * 1.17 is 47-ish%. So the 4th reflect is the one that surpasses 50% and breaks the reflector.

Ah thanks. That makes more sense. It looks like Mewtwo wins most of these ping pong battles. Only the 1.8's and above beat him and that's only if they are ones you can hold out otherwise it's up to reactionary button presses. and one confusions reflect frames last well over a second!

 

[YourFaithfulStudent]

Awesome work as always Thinkamen!

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I love throwing out a very predictable full charge shadow ball. Then I'm just like "please try to reflect this"

 

[MajorMajora]

One thing I'd worry about is doing this on reflex. The timing for this is rather strict, so I feel most people would try to shadow ball into and immediate confusion, but the problem with that is that
A: It's only truly safe if it connects, is reflected, or you are at such a distance that any aerial follow up is impossible (very matchup dependent).
B: If they don't reflect and it wiffs, you lose the potential option of applying pressure (assuming you want to in the current situation) due to using confusion.

In other words, this should never end up being a crutch. I wonder if we could make a list of fighters who can punish this by jumping over the shadow ball at sweetspot range (or some other option). Characters we need to work with are:
Fox
Dark Pit
Pit
ROB
Mario
Dr. Mario
SwordFighter
Ness
Gunner
Zelda
Mewtwo
Falco
Megaman
Palutena

 

[Dark Phazon]

Is shadow ball really stronger than charge beam?

I hear lotta people just say
"Yes...yes it is''

But dont say how...
Havent tested it...
Is knockback more? Or?

 

[Smog Frog]

Shadow Ball base power: 90

Charge Beam base power: 50

of course it is

 

[woopyfrood]

Wait, so you're saying Mewtwo can launch a shadow ball, then use confusion on the Shadow Ball he just launched (which is right in front of him and traveling away) to boost its damage?

Can we get a video of this?

 

[pikazz]

also, can someone count how long it takes before a staled Shadow Ball will make you lose on match up.

I know that a fresh Shadow Ball will win over fox on the second reflect, but the staled one will make mewtwo lose.

and how does the stale works? get them restored on a stock loss, recovers under time or will they always be staled?

Wait, so you're saying Mewtwo can launch a shadow ball, then use confusion on the Shadow Ball he just launched (which is right in front of him and traveling away) to boost its damage?

Can we get a video of this?

nah, its when facing someone that reflects your shadow ball you can reflect it back

 

[MagiusNecros]

Refresh rate of every 10 attacks or so. I think. Or if you die.

In training you always lose because no freshness or staleness. Although you make me want to try a regular match against fox to see if a fresh one can indeed be reflected back.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

It seems like no matter what mewtwo always loses the ping pong battle to palutena.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It seems like no matter what mewtwo always loses the ping pong battle to palutena.

Not true. Close range max sb reflect ends in mewtwo's favor.

 

[Chiroz]

Confusion's lingering hitbox + low endlag makes it beat Mario's cape as long as you're close enough to Mario so you can reflect again while he's still in cape endlag.

 

[Supersmashbrothers.]

This became very enjoyable. Whenever my friend chooses Pit and I choose Mewtwo I fire a fully charged ball of death at him. Which he (If he is far enough) reflects. This went back and forth a little until he couldn't reflect it and it blasted him off-stage.

 

[srn347]

The hilarious irony comes in when the opponent is aware of what you're trying, and then they're all "I'll just shield it then". 50% is also the shield break amount...