Mewtwo Pillar? (AR/additional assistance needed please!)

[quak]

Yeah i know that i JUST made a thread, but the mewtwo boards look kinda dead and i have hope i thought of something innovative that will benefit all of us

So I've been thinking about this for a long time, but never thought about posting about it.

Basically what i have in mind (if it works) will do the same as what the pillaring technique for falco does for him. It will hopefully destroy your opponents shield, and stop shield grabbing and other shield tactics. This is performed with good spacing, quick fingers, and aggressiveness. I know I'm a very aggressive mewtwo player, and this would be an awesome tech if it's worth perfecting.

And while i know the game has been out for 6 years or so, and new things are hardly ever found, just think "what if it works?"

Anyway, how it's done, you alternate between a Instant DJC'd + L canceled fair, and the d-tilt.

Now, from what i can see, there are 3 different things that can allow this technique to be used effectively in a match, 2 of which, i need outside assistance to help me figure out if they work

1) Speed *assistance needed*
2) Spacing *assistance needed*
3) MINDGAMES!!! (I got this one covered )

Now, im fairly sure you can get grabbed easily out of this if you have poor spacing, and im pretty sure the time you are most vulnerable is after you d-tilt, however, you may be vulnerable after the fair as well.

Here where i need help. I need some one with an AR to check out the frame work on a number of things. Firstly, how many frames does your opponent have to try to grab you successfully out of it, both after the d-tilt and after the DJC'd grab. Secondly, i need that same person with the AR to check how many frames one cycle takes against a shield.

Another place where i need some assistance is, is for someone (anyone) to check if done with perfect spacing, whether or not the average ranged grabber (let's say falco for standardization and irony) can grab mewtwo after either the fair or the d-tilt. And if not, how much margin of error is there?

I figure if i take out 21 pages worth of my life to write the guide, you guys can help me out with the AR work/multiple results. All time spent even just reading this is greatly appreciated, I don't take any effort for granted.

C'mon trusty Mewtwo Community, help me out!

 

[Tongji]

I hate to burst your bubble, but it's not going to happen. Dtilt is EASILY Shield grabbed, so having any d-tilt is just going to stop this whole idea. Sorry. It's just not fast enought Djc Fair is decently fast, but plese take note. The only characters that can do the 'pillar' are the characters with only a 1 frame move. NONE and I do mean none of m2's moves even come close to this speed. Sorry quack but it's just not possible. ok from what you stated djc fair to dtilt here are the combos you could do.
1. Fair-fair-fair ext. Well idc if you djc lcancle these you will get shield grabbed
2.Fair-D-tilt (now your shield grabbed) D-tilt will get you screwed
3.D-tilit-Fair (You will get shield grabbed in D-tilt)

Anyway great thinking, and good try but i just don't think it''s even remotly possible withought a 1frame move lolz Props for the creative thinking and new ideas tho, the boards could definatly use more thinkers like you

 

[quak]

yeah, i know you can get shield grabbed outta the d-tilt, but i still wanna know the frame work on it, and with good spacing i know you can get off a d-tilt-DJC fair-grab. Plus, many opponents at the tournies i've been to lately haven't tried to SG me outta my d-tilt.

I know that it's far from being a real pillar, but with the combination of speed, spacing and mindgames, it's still worth a little research.

 

[Tongji]

I suppose your correct in stating that a perfectly spaced D-tilt will not be shield grabbed however, you are far away for your opponent when you try the D-tilt and therefore your DJc Fair will not connect as fast.

If you are looking for fram data on each of the moves, go look on wiki for mooks awsome m2 guide. However I don't think that you will find the Frame rate for your DJc fair because it can be differn't everytime you use it. If your trying to come out of a DJc Fair to a grab, you still may be prone to fast moves if your opponent is expecting it or if they are actually a skilled opponent. idk, If you perfectly space your D-tilt your just too far away for a super fast DJc Fair. As you probably well know, m2's tilts get worse the longer out on the tail you go. So if your going to be attacking with the tip of m2's D-tilt not only is the distance of your DJc Fair going to be rather significant, but the opponents shield lag will almost be non existant. This move just doesn't put enough out there to shield stun the opponent.

Sorry for shooting you down again Thats' not my intent at all. I love your ideas and your creativity. (Sorry I couldn't find the Mooks m2 guide link ill try and post it later.) Dude I give you massive props and please for the love of God keep up the good work!!! XD

 

[quak]

dude chill chill, it's all good

i don't think anyone has on the m2 forums has an AR for the DJC'd fair anyway, i didn't even think to check smashwiki, but i will now.

I'm still gonna use the d-tilt-DJC far-grab thing, it's reliable on the many respectable players i've played so far.

but i think i'll reserve this technique speciflicly for the back of shields, and those rare times when we play with freezies

 

[lavagolem123]

Well, it's nice to have a new idea once in a while but Tongji is right. D-Tilt won't offer enough shield stun to wear down their sheild effectively while keeping you relatively safe. Maybe a quick DJC N-Air would stop them from getting an easy shield grab? Might not be a pillar but hey it's something = /

 

[quak]

i did some rough math off the existing frame data on smashwiki and one cycle of this technique is roughly 55 frames, which is really slow.

the nair may be a good alternative, since it's repeating attack frames, not if you DJC'd it but just shorthopped it with no fast fall. It's L-cancelled lag is only one frame more than that of the fair (12 vs 13).

Again, the pillar is out the window, but i'll still use maybe when i nair to the other side of their shield just to scare them

 

[Tongji]

meh, nair is easily shield grabbed. It has low priority and not alot of power. Not to mention that it has really bad range. idk perhaps there are better ways??however none that I can think of.

Ok now im going to post one of my weird/idk if it will work ideas so I can get flamed. lolz XD

Well it's all about disable. I noticed that disable has an interesting ability to 'knock' characters away when they are getting on the ledge. When I saw getting on the ledge I mean any move that you can use while edge hogging. Now I havn't tested this fully but from the few times I have used it in battle it seemed to me that I could strike with it even while thy were still in invicibility frames. If the disable connects, your opponent doesn't stand there stunned but flys downward in a really odd angle. It seems like it's really tough to get a 'good' DI out of it. idk situational at best however, there is another use. If someone is attempting to get on the board. Lets just take fire fox for example. If you disable them they will loose all momentum and will be sent spinning in the air with a slight downward momentum. At this point they can use there up B again however they are directly below you and that makes fro a really easy D-smash for the kill, or a Fully charged SB. This teck seems to befuddle most opponents and they end up, doing the upb really close to the edge, not allowing for a sweet spot and making them easy prey for a dsmash or SB finish.

Continuing on with another wacky idea. disable (again)

I havn't tested this fully yet however it seems to me that in some fair combos . ie Uthrow on F to fair, that if you can pull off the third shadow claw, (now you should be standing on the ground and the enemy should still be floating above you in purple fog, you could use disable in instantly ground them. While the chance to teck is possible I don't think that nay opponent would see the teck coming. Ok so now you have your opponent laying on the ground prime for a quick D-tilit to grab. idk it's a nice combo.

Perhaps ill post my ideas for cofusion later I just want to get these ideas ironed out. Sorry For the long post.

 

[quak]

if your still standing on the the stage when you disable a firefox/falco, i think they tumble, then grab the ledge perfectly. And all before your wind down is done.

and yeah disabling an opponent that has pressed either x,y,a, or L will send them flying backwards as if they've been disabled twice in a row IF you hit them in their vulnerable frames. Keep in mind, your opponent isn't invicible throughout the entirity of their lag.

and im not sure how the fair to disable works, even if they weren't stunned, the disable wouldn't instantly ground them, it'd just make them start tumbling again, which they would probably jump out of as if it never happened. And if they were still stunned with the fair, they would be sent flying back as if hit by two disables.

good discussion, good ideas

 

[Tongji]

quak i think that your right about the last three ideas however the first one, if your standing on the stage and get them when there off still tryijng to get back on, ie you intercept them in mid air. Thus sending them tumbling and into a stupid Up b into a really easy finish.

Ill have to test and see how fast the disable grounds the opponent and ill get backto you. Thanks for the imput MOre insane/crazy ideas are coming soon.

 

[quak]

ah so i see what ur saying, disable, they panic, do an upB in a bad position, then you capitalize on it with a smash. Good in theory, but it requires your opponent to miss a sweetspot by a far margin if firefoxing below or at the stages edge.

i thought of a 'humiliation' kill for m2 just today. At 250%, grab over the ledge, d-throw, run off stage, disable while still stunned. It kills em

 

[lavagolem123]

Good idea about linking Disable to aerials. Thing is, won't they have to be relatively close to the ground to be grounded quick enough? It'll probably work on fast fallers more often in conjuction with an early U-Throw->DJC F-Air. Floaties might be able to get caught in a quick D-Tilt->Disable if they have moderate damage(prevents CCing.)

 

[Tongji]

The linking with disable and arials im going to be experimenting with more tonight, so I will get some omore reliable data back to you guys. However when it comes to disable firfox, it does matter if there trying to sweet spot. However anyother angle it's going to work quite well. There going to freak out and do something stupid. However I was playing just for a little while last night and I tried something interesting.

My friend mains fox, and when he was SHFFLing an arial at me I used disable and just slapped him from the air. All I had to do was WD backwards while useing diable. He was totally suprised and missed the teck. I followed up with a WD D-tilit and It was pretty sweet shutting him down like that. However it does have a few flaws because when I implimented the next game he was a little higher and tumbled upwards and simply jumped away ohh well he was at a higher % however at lower % (now don't 100% quote me on this more testing needed tonight) but you can pretty much knock peepz out of the air. It definatly suprizes them.

Any way tell me what you think and hopefully tomarrow Ill be able to write up a full report on the disable and air knockout disable tecks.

 

[quak]

there's no way you can disable without jumping off the stage. And if you jump offa the stage then i don't think u'll have enough time to punish his panicked recovery.

Do the testing tonight though, if disable works for you then great, it's just the ONLY move in mewtwo's arsenal that i can't use effectively.

 

[lavagolem123]

Careful when you Disable an aerial opponent though, people who know how to space well *coughLINKcough* probably won't get phased by it since they outrange you.By the way, how much priority does Disable actually have? Can it override any move as long as it connects or what?

 

[quak]

yeah, i think if it hit's then it cancels their move, im not sure if priority even comes into play...

 

[Taj278]

It seems to me like disable has priority like a projectile. It can be caped/power shielded/reflected, and it doesn't clink/parry either like Fox and Falco's lasers. It's just so slow it can easily be traded and it merely interrupts attacks rather than stuns, since the victim just tumbles out of aerials and jumps and can immediately attack after being hit.