Mewtwo complaint thread

[MagiusNecros]

It did get revamped for better or worse. Shadow Ball definitely performs differently.

 

[Paxadin]

Except that they didn't pull the moveset from Melee, since data from that game wasn't transferable. Besides, they did mentioned in a interview a while ago that they made every character from scratch so I don't see why it would be different with Mewtwo.

Still doesn't make sense why some thought that the 5 months of development meant a moveset revamp. This kind of work takes time, same moveset or not.

I'd be willing to bet that meetings about what moves Mewtwo would have would be happening before they announced Mewtwo (most likely 2 to 3 months before release), not during development of the character model and animations.

 

[False Sense]

Guys............. I just realized something! Mewtwo+Lucas= Mucas!!

+ =

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Lol, this thread is funny.
Mewtwo kicks ass. I can't tell if OP is even being serious..

 

[Paxadin]

Lol, this thread is funny.
Mewtwo kicks ***. I can't tell if OP is even being serious..

I feel the complete opposite of your opinion, although he is incredibly fun to use, I'll give you that one.
It's all a matter of play style, and until I see a player rank in finals in a respected tournament, I'll keep my opinion that he's not strong enough to compete. Which I personally believe to be unlikely solely because of his weight added on top of his size, dying at ranges at the likes of is pretty sad when you have a hitbox comparable to characters like .
Going by the current standard in Smash 4, characters of his size should either be heavy and hit hard or have some kind of shield; Super Armor, Meat Shield, a real Shield, etc.

Just imagine a main in a tournament filled with players of the same skill level or higher, can you really think he could last until finals if any single mistake or read easily costs him a stock (much more harshly than most characters).
I might be wrong and someone will prove to me that he's more than for friendly fights, and I hope it happens, but for now I'm rather skeptical.

EDIT: some fixes

 

[meleebrawler]

I feel the complete opposite of your opinion, although he is incredibly fun to use, I'll give you that one.
It's all a matter of play style, and until I see a player rank in finals in a respected tournament, I'll keep my opinion that he's not strong enough to compete. Which I personally believe to be unlikely solely because of his weight added on top of his size, dying at ranges at the likes of is pretty sad when you have a hitbox comparable to characters like .
Going by the current standard in Smash 4, characters of his size should either be heavy and hit hard or have some kind of shield; Super Armor, Meat Shield, a real Shield, etc.

Just imagine a main in a tournament filled with players of the same skill level or higher, can you really think he could last until finals if any single mistake or read easily costs him a stock (much more harshly than most characters).
I might be wrong and someone will prove to me that he's more than for friendly fights, and I hope it happens, but for now I'm rather skeptical.

EDIT: some fixes

Well Trela just took second at TGC (Texas Gaming) using only Mewtwo, lost to a Falcon at the end.

If you don't believe me or want more details, ask @Teshie U.

 

[Baskerville]

Well Trela just took second at TGC (Texas Gaming) using only Mewtwo, lost to a Falcon at the end.

If you don't believe me or want more details, ask @Teshie U.

Huh, was just about to post this.
http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...ston-tx-4-25-2015-mewtwo-breaks-top-3.400708/

 

[Paxadin]

Well Trela just took second at TGC (Texas Gaming) using only Mewtwo, lost to a Falcon at the end.

If you don't believe me or want more details, ask @Teshie U.

Thanks a bunch, while reading the thread I noticed that the videos were going to be uploaded tomorrow.
I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing how Trela used Mewtwo!

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Well Trela just took second at TGC (Texas Gaming) using only Mewtwo, lost to a Falcon at the end.

If you don't believe me or want more details, ask @Teshie U.

Mother of Jesus Christmas! The dream is alive!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Reading the linked topic it appears they weren't able to record Trela's matches.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Lol, this thread is funny.
Mewtwo kicks ass. I can't tell if OP is even being serious..

I feel the complete opposite of your opinion, although he is incredibly fun to use, I'll give you that one.
It's all a matter of play style, and until I see a player rank in finals in a respected tournament, I'll keep my opinion that he's not strong enough to compete. Which I personally believe to be unlikely solely because of his weight added on top of his size, dying at ranges at the likes of is pretty sad when you have a hitbox comparable to characters like .
Going by the current standard in Smash 4, characters of his size should either be heavy and hit hard or have some kind of shield; Super Armor, Meat Shield, a real Shield, etc.

Just imagine a main in a tournament filled with players of the same skill level or higher, can you really think he could last until finals if any single mistake or read easily costs him a stock (much more harshly than most characters).
I might be wrong and someone will prove to me that he's more than for friendly fights, and I hope it happens, but for now I'm rather skeptical.

EDIT: some fixes

although mewtwo does die early. He has insane kill potential, with more kill setups/guaranteed kills than almost anyone eles.
You don't want to fall into a full charged sb more than twice in a stock.
I feel he defiantly makes up for his weight. If mewtwo was heavy, that wouldn't even be fair.

 

[Malkasaur]

I have a theory that Mewtwo is an incomplete character. He has questionable hitboxes (Especially Disable, it seems random if that move works, and its crap if it does work), lacks customs, and his weight is absurd. I know he was light in Melee, it was stupid, but this is ridiculous. Large and lightweight is just bad. He just seems rushed.

 

[simpleglitch]

I have a theory that Mewtwo is an incomplete character. He has questionable hitboxes (Especially Disable, it seems random if that move works, and its crap if it does work), lacks customs, and his weight is absurd. I know he was light in Melee, it was stupid, but this is ridiculous. Large and lightweight is just bad. He just seems rushed.

Besides missing Custom moves, I don't feel like he is incomplete.

I haven't had too much trouble with his hitboxes. Disable is consistent, but has really strict rules. Range is about the same as mewtwo's jab finisher, the opponent must be facing mewtwo, it may miss characters that have a low crouch, and stun time grows with the amount of damage the opponent has. It isn't a spamable move, but works ok as a mixup. I don't know what other hitboxes are questionable besides confusion (which is more of a reflector and recovery option).

The weight isn't good, but that seems like a intended design choice. They wanted him to be a glass cannon(him being light because he was 'rushed' doesn't even make sense).

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah him having less weight then in melee sounds like a design choice honestly.

 

[ZombieVito]

If he is going to be that lightweight at least buff his damage.

 

[Diddy Kong]

+ =

Also, I was quite serious when making this thread honestly. However, having played the game finally with a GCN controller has changed my opinion slightly. I do think Mewtwo has obvious flaws that will prevent him from doing too well in tournaments. But I guess that now, he can preform decently given that nobody really has experience with good Mewtwo players.

As soon as everyone has got their character's matchup vs Mewtwo, I can't see him doing too greatly against the Top Tiers of the cast.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Mewtwo's biggest weaknesses would probably his lack of safe options up close, and the fact that most of his strongest KO options (Besides Shadowball and Bair) also require him to be close to his opponent.

He basically has to get in on his opponents in order to maximize his punish options, but because he doesn't have the safest of options once he actually does get in, he is equally prone to being punished as well. And this is compounded by his problems with getting in against the faster characters in the game.

I'm more concerned with these issues in contrast to his weight, personally.


Barring Jab and Dair (-2 and - 3 startup frames respectively), his frame data from Melee is overall worse. Which is a shame, as it could have been the key to really make this character shine in Smash 4. On most of his attacks, he gained 1 additional startup lag frame. Dtilt, Utilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair, Uair, and Dash Grab. Although 1 frame is pretty small, every little bit counts.

His biggest losses from Melee include +2 startup frames on Nair (5 to 7), and a whopping +4 frames on Ftilt (6 to 10). For Ftilt in particular, it really hurts to lose safeness on what could have been one of his best pokes for putting opponents off of the stage and following it up with Dair/Fair/Shadowball/etc. And the +2 on Nair also kind of hurts, as Nair is one of his best combo options since it can lead to Fair or Bair at lower percents.


At the very least, he doesn't have 8 frames of startup on his Jab in Smash 4. That could've easily made him drop a tier without it. I don't know what I would do without that jab tbh.

Dair buff is also nice. A perfectly timed SH Dair might be one of his safer KO options on the ground, and it definitely helps his very solid offstage game.

The other thing that hinders me more than his weight would be his lack of options to cover behind him. Dsmash is the obvious offender, of course, but that part honestly doesn't bother me that much. What DOES bother me is how the tip of Utilt loses its hitbox when it goes behind Mewtwo, because that would have been especially nice for catching rollers. Extending the side hiboxes of Usmash just a little bit would have also done well to help cover Mewtwo especially since the move comes out on frame 9. I would be very happy with those changes.



So overall:
- Buff Ftilt and Nair to have Melee's startup lag
- Add tipper hitbox to the back of Utilt
- Slightly increase side hitboxes of Usmash
- Ending/Landing lag reduction on his Teleport
- Weight buff (not as important as the other things though, in my opinion)
- Other slight improvements here and there, mostly in concerns to removing some startup lag (Even for Jab 1? <3)


And then bam. Suddenly, you have an extremely solid character.



As it stands right now though, Mewtwo is just average. And follows a similar-but-different path in comparison to Ganondorf. Especially good at punishes and when people don't know the matchup, but takes a surplus of precision and educated risks in order to be effective. Against the mid/lower tier characters, these educated risks have much more profound benefits to outweigh the weaknesses behind them. But against the higher and top tier characters, these options begin to fall flat because those characters can take educated risks and be much safer while also having more positive qualities when it comes to their rewards.

 

[Diddy Kong]

See, I knew I was not crazy when I said earlier that is way slower than , it's an obvious fact now! I really don't get Sakurai's choice of design for Mewtwo this time... Why didn't he just get that with the massive outcry for Mewtwo revamps we asked for a better character, not a character who was already based on too much of an "extreme" stat spread's main focus being even having worse balance in statistics overall...

His lack of safe options plus his weight is an enormous issue now, even moreso than in Melee... It makes me miss Melee's Mewtwo actually. I seriously hold this opinion that Melee's Mewtwo is severly underrated, and Smash 4's Mewtwo is heavily overrated. His absence from Brawl and his "glorious" return shouldn't let people overlook that this character is seriously full of flaws. Terrible design flaws, as before, creating basically a 2.0....

With the whole engine being overally sped up from Brawl, I don't get why they'd make Mewtwo that much slower than in Melee, but other obviously flawed characters as who where to most also "doomed low tier" characters where all massively sped up. Not too sure about Zelda but she at least feels faster

Mewtwo needs buffs. His lack of weight, speed, safe options, range, and bad lag after everything is just terrible gameplay design and doesn't make sence at all. A little hint of being a glass canon with having medium or even less than average weight (making this up with recovery) whilst having more powerful moves than now would be way better representation for the character...

Then again, this is the same guy who designed so yeah...

 

[meleebrawler]

The only move I see on Mewtwo that could use a speed buff is Uair, to increase it's use as a combo move.

See, I knew I was not crazy when I said earlier that is way slower than , it's an obvious fact now! I really don't get Sakurai's choice of design for Mewtwo this time... Why didn't he just get that with the massive outcry for Mewtwo revamps we asked for a better character, not a character who was already based on too much of an "extreme" stat spread's main focus being even having worse balance in statistics overall...

His lack of safe options plus his weight is an enormous issue now, even moreso than in Melee... It makes me miss Melee's Mewtwo actually. I seriously hold this opinion that Melee's Mewtwo is severly underrated, and Smash 4's Mewtwo is heavily overrated. His absence from Brawl and his "glorious" return shouldn't let people overlook that this character is seriously full of flaws. Terrible design flaws, as before, creating basically a 2.0....

With the whole engine being overally sped up from Brawl, I don't get why they'd make Mewtwo that much slower than in Melee, but other obviously flawed characters as who where to most also "doomed low tier" characters where all massively sped up. Not too sure about Zelda but she at least feels faster

Mewtwo needs buffs. His lack of weight, speed, safe options, range, and bad lag after everything is just terrible gameplay design and doesn't make sence at all. A little hint of being a glass canon with having medium or even less than average weight (making this up with recovery) whilst having more powerful moves than now would be way better representation for the character...

Then again, this is the same guy who designed so yeah...

All the characters you listed except Bowser barely got faster in frame data, they got better for different
reasons. Ness has fair strings, no longer has to deal with grab release BS and his recovery is somewhat harder
to intercept, Link no longer has a totally **** recovery with a better tether and up b as well as more power,
Yoshi can jump out of shield letting him better utilize his air mobility, and Zelda has massively laggier lightning kicks
with only really a faster utilt, killing up b and phantom.

Almost everyone is slower compared to Melee, even if it's just because of no L-canceling.
But while it's true that Mewtwo has taken some frame nerfs, they're almost all made up for with greater
power (that includes Ftilt), which was one of his biggest weaknesses (only somewhat masked by how easy it was to gimp in that
game). And it's no secret that even if Smash 4 is faster than Brawl, it's still much slower than Melee.

Melee Mewtwo may be underrated, but can you really look at his specials and weak smashes and say
he's a full-fledged character? And even if Smash 4 Mewtwo is technically worse than Melee, he does
better by not being roflstomped as badly by borderline broken top tiers. At this point, expecting nothing
but buffs to a character seems very unrealistic.

 

[Ultinarok]

Mewtwo seems fine to me. Great, as a matter of fact. Yeah his frames are a bit worse but he's got some godly range on him overall, his tail attacks reach much farther, all of his attacks actually have a use, he has way more KO options and while his damage is down somewhat, EVERYONE'S damage is down in Smash 4, so his damage is still among the best. Shadow Ball is phenomenal, his throws are still great (short grab seems fair to compensate) and his movement is more fluid and seems quicker. Losing a couple frame isn't that detrimental when you space much better than before. His light weight is an issue for sure but I don't think its unreasonable considering how many tools he has at his disposal.

And he looks cool, as do all his attacks, so aesthetically he's a success for sure. I like him WAY better than Melee so far. I hated melee Mewtwo, he felt like you were fighting with a chunk of cotton candy floating in the wind, not the original legendary monster. This new Mewtwo is at least powerful.

 

[Mo433]

I won't deny the fact that Mewtwo does need buffs, but I honestly don't see Mewtwo as bad as some people are making him out to be. While he isn't top tier, I can affirm that he isn't as bad in rankings as he was in Melee.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Well Trela just took second at TGC (Texas Gaming) using only Mewtwo, lost to a Falcon at the end.

If you don't believe me or want more details, ask @Teshie U.

Damn. Falcon. That's rough. He's already the bane of my Mewtwo.

 

[Tito Maas]

Can't beat Ness with Mewtwo. Just not possible.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

You know the most irritating thing about mewtwo? having to sit back and just take otherwise unsafe hits on your sheild because of crappy grab range+mewtwo's habit of being slid everywhere.(seriously, little mac's EVERYTHING pushes mewtwo back so far that it's all free on shield)It's a real shame too since mewtwo has great grabs.

 

[ZombieVito]

Can't beat Ness with Mewtwo. Just not possible.

I thought it was just me but yeah. Played over 10 matches with a lv. 9 Ness last night and only managed to win 4 of them.

I got frustrated to no end.

 

[meleebrawler]

You know the most irritating thing about mewtwo? having to sit back and just take otherwise unsafe hits on your sheild because of crappy grab range+mewtwo's habit of being slid everywhere.(seriously, little mac's EVERYTHING pushes mewtwo back so far that it's all free on shield)It's a real shame too since mewtwo has great grabs.

You gotta learn to use unconventional OOS options with Mewtwo, like with Samus (Screw Attack more than slow grab).
Dtilt's range covers almost any frontal assault, especially from the likes of Pikachu, you just have to be careful not to buffer
a sidestep, and then there's jab. Nair if they get uncomfortably close, and use Usmash to preempt any crossover attempts.

And pretty much everyone has trouble punishing Mac with their shield unless it's a dash attack or badly spaced ftilt.

 

[A-money2121]

Has anyone here seen FOW play Mewtwo? So far he's amazing with him imo, and he also believes atm Mewtwo is somewhere in high tier. I just love seeing FOW play Mewtwo, just the way he pivots and uses his aerial movement for the mindgames is magical lol. And don't get me started on that pivot shadow ball that recoiled him behind his opponent into an F-smash, that brought a tear to my eye lol.

As for me, I think Mewtwo is at least mid-tier, although, talking tiers this early in his release feels stupid to me.

Mewtwo's gotta be played in the big tournaments to determine his position in the tier lists. If you ask me, I'd say he's somewhere in B tier. But I wouldn't be surprised if many people disagree...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Can't beat Ness with Mewtwo. Just not possible.

It's funny how the match up has turned around indeed. I had a lot of fun playing against my friend's Mewtwo with Ness. PK Thunder juggles for days... Even killed him on the top of the stage with PK Thunder at about... 115%? We where playing Omega Wrecking Crew btw.

I now wish more than ever that Mewtwo had something that improved his defensive game for Down B. Favorite suggestions back in the day where stuff like Light Screen or Barrier to keep enemies from coming close and wall with Shadow Ball behind it. Such a move I'd still really like as a Custom. And Confusion needs to be the command grab it always should've been, but insanely powerful just because.

 

[Belgrim]

Look, you guys wanted Mewtwo. Now that we have him, you start complaining. It's either this or that. This community needs to make up their mind. ALL characters have weaknesses, not every character can be perfect. Turn those weaknesses into possibilities. Not every character is going to be as perfect as you want them to be. I don't know when this community will realize that this is Smash 4, not Melee.

Instead of complaining, get good. How do you think a character like Pikachu (who was said to SUCK during the 3DS days) managed to become top tier? Because people actually used him and learned techniques. Get real people. Your character has been granted back to you, and you should be happy about it. Remember the phrase "Ya get what cha' pay for?"

Ungrateful people...

I mean, the thread is called mewtwo complaints so I would think you'd know that's what you'd be seeing here.

 

[Toon612Link]

Please stop using Mewtwo in team battle's until you learn how to use him.

 

[Belgrim]

Please give mewtwo customs. That's my only complaint. I bought mewtwo using leftover money in my eShop balance. I'd say he's more fun than fighting. I was just disappointed at not seeing something like energy ball or aura sphere as options for neutral B

 

[Diddy Kong]

What are 's worst matchups according to you guys?

I think he has a clear disadvantage against the fast Top Tier characters as: . ( I think is actually quite do-able) But I also think he's struggling against the likes of . Other potential unfavorable matchups could be: .

Only characters I'm confident in that Mewtwo actually beats are:

 

[GanonPawnch]

What are 's worst matchups according to you guys?

I think he has a clear disadvantage against the fast Top Tier characters as: . ( I think is actually quite do-able) But I also think he's struggling against the likes of . Other potential unfavorable matchups could be: .

Only characters I'm confident in that Mewtwo actually beats are:

Well I don't have a lot of experience with this, but from who I've fought I definitely have problems with and . Fox is not only fast but has a reflector and Yoshi can just pressure you none stop.

 

[Chiroz]

What are 's worst matchups according to you guys?

I think he has a clear disadvantage against the fast Top Tier characters as: . ( I think is actually quite do-able) But I also think he's struggling against the likes of . Other potential unfavorable matchups could be: .

Only characters I'm confident in that Mewtwo actually beats are:

Little Mac is definitely not an easy match-up for Mewtwo at all.

Ness, Luigi, ZSS and Yoshi I've never had any special problems with, everytime I've lost to one I know of things I could have done better and most of the time while fighting one of them I have solid options to counter their approaches or conquer their defenses.

I've actually found Link, Ike and Jiggz extremely easy to fight, like I've never even broken a sweat fighting one.

I've beaten all the Falco's I've fought pretty easily, but it's because the players weren't that good, I can see some tools Falco has that could make the match-up kind of hard, but somehow I think Mewtwo also has tools able to fight Falco. No idea on the Pits though.

Apart from that, I still don't have much experience to say.

 

[A-money2121]

What are 's worst matchups according to you guys?

I think he has a clear disadvantage against the fast Top Tier characters as: . ( I think is actually quite do-able) But I also think he's struggling against the likes of . Other potential unfavorable matchups could be: .

Only characters I'm confident in that Mewtwo actually beats are:

Why exactly are Mewtwo players having problems with Ness? He seems fine to me, and I've faced good Ness' before and won.

BTW, I also recommend adding Robin / into the "clear disadvantage" list. I've never won a Robin battle... I've tried... It... I can't...

 

[Psyruby]

Mewtwo's biggest weaknesses would probably his lack of safe options up close, and the fact that most of his strongest KO options (Besides Shadowball and Bair) also require him to be close to his opponent.

He basically has to get in on his opponents in order to maximize his punish options, but because he doesn't have the safest of options once he actually does get in, he is equally prone to being punished as well. And this is compounded by his problems with getting in against the faster characters in the game.

I'm more concerned with these issues in contrast to his weight, personally.


(Technical stuff that I really appreciate talking about)

And then bam. Suddenly, you have an extremely solid character.



As it stands right now though, Mewtwo is just average. And follows a similar-but-different path in comparison to Ganondorf. Especially good at punishes and when people don't know the matchup, but takes a surplus of precision and educated risks in order to be effective. Against the mid/lower tier characters, these educated risks have much more profound benefits to outweigh the weaknesses behind them. But against the higher and top tier characters, these options begin to fall flat because those characters can take educated risks and be much safer while also having more positive qualities when it comes to their rewards.

Okay 2 things.
1) I TOTALLY APPRECIATE YOUR STANCE. His weight isn't so much an issue for match ups but would just give him consistency.
2) There is a slight problem with comparing Mewtwo to Ganondorf. Ganondorf is many times forced to play the aggressor as he has nothing to combat projectiles other than power shielding, shielding, and jumping. However Mewtwo can very easily deal with most projectile users as his Shadow Ball beats out all small projectiles and he has a reflector for larger projectiles(They have long start up times usually which makes confusion easier to use). Very rarely Mewtwo is forced to go in unless the player chooses to. I know most people want to play him aggressively, but he just isn't that type of character as of right now.

 

[srn347]

Considering that mewtwo has base 130 speed and weighs 269 lbs, I expected him to be quite fast and/or at least medium weight. That said, while mewtwo's defensive capabilities are still mediocre, his offensive options are amazing. Kill throws, decent comboing potential, and an up smash that can kill as early as 75%*.

*Your results may vary.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Okay 2 things.
1) I TOTALLY APPRECIATE YOUR STANCE. His weight isn't so much an issue for match ups but would just give him consistency.
2) There is a slight problem with comparing Mewtwo to Ganondorf. Ganondorf is many times forced to play the aggressor as he has nothing to combat projectiles other than power shielding, shielding, and jumping. However Mewtwo can very easily deal with most projectile users as his Shadow Ball beats out all small projectiles and he has a reflector for larger projectiles(They have long start up times usually which makes confusion easier to use). Very rarely Mewtwo is forced to go in unless the player chooses to. I know most people want to play him aggressively, but he just isn't that type of character as of right now.

Yeah. His weight isn't too huge of an issue for me. I just wish he had more defense in other areas that actually matted. Such as faster frame data, more speed, more sensible hitboxes to help cover his large frame, etc.

After all, most of the top tiers in every Smash game so far have been lightweights. But they aren't hindered by this much because of their movement speed and fast frame data. And speed incorporates both elements of offense and defense. Why be bulky and slow when you could technically have both excellent offensive and defensive options thanks to speed?

Another thing I wish he had was a larger forward hitbox on his Uair. That would be a great alternative to use instead of Fair in some situations if that were the case. You could sacrifice speed and KO potential for some range and juggle setups. But unfortunately you can't. :/ You have to get in close with SH Uair in order for it to be effective or space it perfectly, and I dislike that.

That's a good point about Mewtwo not having to go in unlike Ganondorf. It does give him more defensive options in contrast to Ganondorf at least.

 

[Enrel]

The biggest problem I have with mewtwo so far is getting in on a lot of characters. It's really weird because he should have some good range at least you'd think so, but most of his range is kinda short and that's a shame considering how BIG and LIGHT he is. Most of the games on FG have been a struggle to really find out a good/safe way of getting in.

The weird thing is he's super fun. Like amazingly so- He just feels like he gets bodied too easily and has no safe options to help.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

yeah.. it also doesn't help that he has a lot of misleading hitboxes.(such as most of fair's energy wave thing not existing and nair not being anywhere near as disjointed as it looks like it should be.)