SuSa
Banned via Administration
Need to add dash attack, and I guess glide attack, Side-B, and Tornado.
I NEED HELP WITH META KNIGHTS AERIALS
Please note:
Grenades take 17 frames to pull OoS to pull the grenade pin.
It takes 24 frames to have control, and your fastest option from there is a grab which takes an additional 8 frames for a total of 32 frames.
Pulling a grenade as a punish just isn't smart. Pull your grenades beforehand or after your attack.
Defending against Meta Knight's Attacks
Ftilt
Meta Knight's Frame Data
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
Soonest IASA frame: 41
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits
1st attack shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -12
2nd and 3rd attacks shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23
This move is stupid broken due to how the attacks can be delayed. Your best option is to retreat.
Dtilt
Meta Knight's Frame Data
Snake's possible options:
Shielded on hitbox frame 1:
Jab [7 frames of shield drop, 3 frames to commit to attack - leaves MK at -1 frame advantage. Impossible to shield]
Grab [0 frames of shield drop, 8 frames to commit to grab - leaves MK at -3 frame advantage]
Shielded on hitbox frame 2:
Grab [0 frames of shield drop, 8 frames to commit to grab - leaves MK at -2 frame advantage]
Risky Options:
Ftilt - The MK has a 1-2 frame window to shield. [If they buffer a shield, you will be powershielded and punished]
OoS Usmash - The MK has a 1-2 frame window to shield. [See above]
Utilt
Meta Knight's Frame Data
1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown
frame summary:
shield advantage: -25
shield drop advantage: -18
Snake's Options
Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 FrameS from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS
Fsmash
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown
frame summary:
Shield advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5
Snake's Options
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
It is advised you retreat until close enough to hit with Usmash or Grab Meta Knight.
Dsmash
Meta Knight Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown
frame summary:
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13
Front Hit Options
Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
OoS Dair
OoS Usmash
Back Hit Options
Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
OoS Usmash
OoS Dair
Usmash
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown
frame summary:
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24
Snake's Options
Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 Frames from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS
Because there are only 3-4 frames between each hit of Meta Knight's Up smash, be sure to only react upon shielding the final hit. You should have plenty of time to punish this move, which is why you won't see it used often.
Up-B
Meta Knight's Frame Data
Snake's Options
Down-B
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-17
18-26 invincibility frames
27-54 cooldown
frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:9
notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14
Snake's Options
Nair
Meta Knight's Frame Data
NAIR
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25
Shield hitlag differential strong hit: 0
Shield hitlag differential weak hit: -1
Shield stun strong hit: 4
Shield stun weak hit: 1
Optimal shield advantage strong hit: -11
Optimal shield drop advantage strong hit: -4
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -15
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -8
*Optimal shield advantage weak hit autocanceled: -2
*Optimal shield shield drop advantage weak hit autocanceled: +5
Snake's Options
Until someone can make sense of this frame data for me and tell me if we powershield the strong hitbox - if the weak hitbox will still hurt us (or do we need to shield that as well?) and if it's safe to unshield anytime after powershielding this move. I cannot answer if we can punish it or not.
Fair
Bair
Dair
Uair?
Attacking Meta Knight's Defense
Spot Dodge
Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20
This is obvious with most smash characters... try to hit them before they actually get out of their spot dodge completely.
Back Roll
Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12
Meta Knight's back roll is one of the worst in the game! If you find MK retreating with a back roll, ABUSE THE HELL OUT OF IT. Do a Dacus, throw a grenade at him, dash attack, ftilt, DO SOMETHING!
Front Roll
Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12
Unlike his horrible back roll, his front roll isn't nearly as bad. You can still punish him pretty badly for rolling though, that's a given.
Air Dodge
Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28
Like most air dodges, try to get him before he completely comes out of it. You have 11 frames of room before he can even retaliate. So get in that free Uair/bair if possible.
I'm insane.
I NEED HELP WITH META KNIGHTS AERIALS
Please note:
Grenades take 17 frames to pull OoS to pull the grenade pin.
It takes 24 frames to have control, and your fastest option from there is a grab which takes an additional 8 frames for a total of 32 frames.
Pulling a grenade as a punish just isn't smart. Pull your grenades beforehand or after your attack.
NOTES:
~Unconfirmed~
Shield Dropping takes 7 frames.
OoS Usmash is ___ frames (range of a powershield) then the startup of Usmash.
OoS aerials are ___ frames (range of a powershield) + number of frames to jump + number of frames to perform aerial
~Confirmed~
Our Jump is 9 Frames, not 11 Frames.
SFD:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258332
MKFD:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
Meta KnightQUICK REFERENCING
Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 Frames from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS
Fastest Options in order:
Grab
Jab
Ftilt, OoS Usmash
OoS Dair
Dtilt, Utilt
Dash Attack
Defending against Meta Knight's Attacks
Ftilt
Meta Knight's Frame Data
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
Soonest IASA frame: 41
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits
1st attack shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -12
2nd and 3rd attacks shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23
This move is stupid broken due to how the attacks can be delayed. Your best option is to retreat.
Dtilt
Meta Knight's Frame Data
DTILT
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown
frame summary:
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown
frame summary:
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4
Snake's possible options:
Shielded on hitbox frame 1:
Jab [7 frames of shield drop, 3 frames to commit to attack - leaves MK at -1 frame advantage. Impossible to shield]
Grab [0 frames of shield drop, 8 frames to commit to grab - leaves MK at -3 frame advantage]
Shielded on hitbox frame 2:
Grab [0 frames of shield drop, 8 frames to commit to grab - leaves MK at -2 frame advantage]
Risky Options:
Ftilt - The MK has a 1-2 frame window to shield. [If they buffer a shield, you will be powershielded and punished]
OoS Usmash - The MK has a 1-2 frame window to shield. [See above]
Utilt
Meta Knight's Frame Data
1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown
frame summary:
shield advantage: -25
shield drop advantage: -18
Snake's Options
Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 FrameS from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS
Fsmash
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown
frame summary:
Shield advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5
Snake's Options
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
It is advised you retreat until close enough to hit with Usmash or Grab Meta Knight.
Dsmash
Meta Knight Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown
frame summary:
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13
Front Hit Options
Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
OoS Dair
OoS Usmash
Back Hit Options
Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
OoS Usmash
OoS Dair
Usmash
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown
frame summary:
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24
Snake's Options
Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 Frames from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS
Because there are only 3-4 frames between each hit of Meta Knight's Up smash, be sure to only react upon shielding the final hit. You should have plenty of time to punish this move, which is why you won't see it used often.
Up-B
Meta Knight's Frame Data
GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32
AERIAL SHUTTLE LOOP
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-14 strong hitbox out
15-36 weak hitbox out
frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32
AERIAL SHUTTLE LOOP
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-14 strong hitbox out
15-36 weak hitbox out
frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38
Snake's Options
Down-B
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-17
18-26 invincibility frames
27-54 cooldown
frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:9
notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14
Snake's Options
Nair
Meta Knight's Frame Data
NAIR
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25
Shield hitlag differential strong hit: 0
Shield hitlag differential weak hit: -1
Shield stun strong hit: 4
Shield stun weak hit: 1
Optimal shield advantage strong hit: -11
Optimal shield drop advantage strong hit: -4
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -15
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -8
*Optimal shield advantage weak hit autocanceled: -2
*Optimal shield shield drop advantage weak hit autocanceled: +5
Snake's Options
Until someone can make sense of this frame data for me and tell me if we powershield the strong hitbox - if the weak hitbox will still hurt us (or do we need to shield that as well?) and if it's safe to unshield anytime after powershielding this move. I cannot answer if we can punish it or not.
Fair
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 22
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -9
Optimal shield drop advantage: -2
Snake's Options
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 22
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -9
Optimal shield drop advantage: -2
Snake's Options
Bair
Meta Knight's Frame Data
Snake's Options
frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 33
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 33
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Snake's Options
Dair
Meta Knight's Frame Data
Snake's Options
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11
Snake's Options
Uair?
Meta Knight's Frame Data
Snake's Options
frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3
Snake's Options
Attacking Meta Knight's Defense
Spot Dodge
Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20
This is obvious with most smash characters... try to hit them before they actually get out of their spot dodge completely.
Back Roll
Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12
Meta Knight's back roll is one of the worst in the game! If you find MK retreating with a back roll, ABUSE THE HELL OUT OF IT. Do a Dacus, throw a grenade at him, dash attack, ftilt, DO SOMETHING!
Front Roll
Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12
Unlike his horrible back roll, his front roll isn't nearly as bad. You can still punish him pretty badly for rolling though, that's a given.
Air Dodge
Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28
Like most air dodges, try to get him before he completely comes out of it. You have 11 frames of room before he can even retaliate. So get in that free Uair/bair if possible.
I'm insane.