Meta Knight vs Snake's grenade counter - What works?

[HolyForce]

My most difficult time is against a well-trained Snake. The biggest problem above all against him is his grenades, and the 'grenade counter' (he holds the grenade and lets it blow up on both of you, when you attack him/it). Of course he takes damage, but trading with Snake isn't a good idea because he's [the 2nd?] heaviest character in the game vs. Meta's rather light weight. I was hoping to share what I've been doing to pull out some wins, and also get some feedback/advice from others.

When Snake is standing on the ground looking at me holding a grenade, my best options seem to be the following should I choose to attack (of course, they are all situational):

-Running grab, since it's range is so good. Grabbing Snake will make him drop the grenade, then Down Throw will result in the grenade only damaging Snake (providing at least a second or so of the 'fuse' has passed)

-Neutral Air. This will knock Snake back and won't blow the grenade up. Executed at his face's level, the 2nd attack of NAir will loot the grenade, so you can throw it at him. This is totally awesome when it happens.

-Running Attack from distance. Running into Snake with dashing A will cause him to drop the nade and it will not blow up on you as long as the last few hit frames of the attack hit him. In other words, start the attack from as far away as possible.

-Forward Tilt. A single slash will not blow up the nade; careful not to execute the 2nd slash.

-Down Tilt. Careful not to execute twice.

-Drill Rush @ head. Starting from the ground, or if you have trouble controlling the angle, you can short hop into a horizontal drill rush at Snake's head. It will cause him to drop the nade and you'll continue to drill him away from the nade.

- Shuttleloop (UP+B). Seemingly adds invincibility frames on connection, thus hitting Snake and you not taking grenade damage.


Of course, you can choose to work inbetween grenades and whatnot. Be careful about looting the grenades because he can use the 2nd grenade to force the 1st to drop to the ground, even if you're holding it.


These are just some ideas I've had. Anyone else who mains Meta and has extensive play against a well-trained Snake, I would appreciate your input against this situation.

Thanks

 

[Crazy Cloud]

Never played a 'nade countering Snake yet (hope I don't have to for awhile). Does he drop the grenade on impact? Also, what about uthrow? Does he carry it with him or does he drop it as soon as you go up? If he were to drop it, I'd think the best idea would be to counterpick battlefield and abuse uthrow onto one of the platforms (which with how far dash grab goes, it should be easy to manipulate the placing so you're both under a plat).

If he doesn't drop it though, I'd still think that uthrow would be the best bet if someone were willing to just trade %. It does 10% or so damage right? So that'd put them atleast somewhat ahead.

Quick question. Is abusing Snake's Up B Recovery allowed in tournament play? The one where you grab him after he does his Up B and let him shake/break loose to his doom? Might be easier to just dthrow near the edge then follow it up with a dair to rid him of his second jump, then proceed to gimp him with a grab.

 

[mrk]

Never played a 'nade countering Snake yet (hope I don't have to for awhile). Does he drop the grenade on impact?

You usually hit it and cause it to explode.

Also, what about uthrow? Does he carry it with him or does he drop it as soon as you go up? If he were to drop it, I'd think the best idea would be to counterpick battlefield and abuse uthrow onto one of the platforms (which with how far dash grab goes, it should be easy to manipulate the placing so you're both under a plat).If he doesn't drop it though, I'd still think that uthrow would be the best bet if someone were willing to just trade %.

I'm unsure, but my guess is that he drops it when he's grabbed. If you can time it (or if the Snake player times it, rather...) you could have the grenade explode while you're both in the air, then give 12% to Snake when you come back down.

If he drops it.

Oh, and by the way, Snake's utilt has utterly ridiculous range, and can probably knock Meta out of his dash grab.

It does 10% or so damage right? So that'd put them atleast somewhat ahead.

It does 17%. And it has ridiculous knockback. Ridiculous.

Quick question. Is abusing Snake's Up B Recovery allowed in tournament play? The one where you grab him after he does his Up B and let him shake/break loose to his doom? Might be easier to just dthrow near the edge then follow it up with a dair to rid him of his second jump, then proceed to gimp him with a grab.

There is no reason that that could be banned. However, any good Snake will just use his C4 recovery, making that strategy naught more than a novelty.

Maining Meta and seconding Snake has its advantages, on both sides. To answer the original question, though, I can't think of a way to stop a grenade countering Snake. I play Meta because he's my favourite--the fact that he's an incredibly brilliant fighter is a second thought. If I was playing to purely win, I would be using Snake. I can get no-contact mortar slides 100% of the time, and he's just too strong, too fast, too heavy, and has too good of a recovery to be an easy fight for Meta, who is used to them. It's not even an even or difficult match... I'd imagine it impossible to beat an incredible Snake (at least with Meta, whom I consider to be the "best" character after Snake).

Greh.

Also, I'm on my mobile, so ignore typos, please.

 

[ollenberger121]

i have not played a snake who uses the grenade counter but if you approach gliding you can "B" cancel and dodge the grenade when he throws it......also does meta knight gliding slash clash with the grenades explosion ?

 

[Kel]

This is going to sound pretty basic, but you DON'T have to attack him when he has a grenade. Just wait for him to open up. MK has the advantage in the air. The hardest part about fighting Snake is killing him. Try to catch him off guard on his DI with a D-smash to make him die off the bottom.

However, I've started using fox more on Snake. Fox has a reliable kill move, and it really helps against Snake.

 

[Crazy Cloud]

.

Oh, and by the way, Snake's utilt has utterly ridiculous range, and can probably knock Meta out of his dash grab.

If he's holding a 'nade though, he shouldn't be able to utilt (correct me if I'm wrong), should he?

It does 17%. And it has ridiculous knockback. Ridiculous.

No argument there, all 3 of his tilts are Ridiculous.

Maining Meta and seconding Snake has its advantages, on both sides. To answer the original question, though, I can't think of a way to stop a grenade countering Snake. I play Meta because he's my favourite--the fact that he's an incredibly brilliant fighter is a second thought. If I was playing to purely win, I would be using Snake. I can get no-contact mortar slides 100% of the time, and he's just too strong, too fast, too heavy, and has too good of a recovery to be an easy fight for Meta, who is used to them. It's not even an even or difficult match... I'd imagine it impossible to beat an incredible Snake (at least with Meta, whom I consider to be the "best" character after Snake).

True. Having more than one main is always a good thing. Hopefully I can play one of these Snakes before too long so I can get a better point of reference on how to deal with it. As for the C4 Recovery, that rings tricky in my book. Either I wait for him to recover with his Up B in hopes of gimping it, or I imply that I'm waiting, chase him down, only to have him use his Up B with it's Super-Armor-like defence with me not on top to counter with a grab. Guess the only option is to let him C4 (Unless you see a opening, you could take it and still have a chance he'd just air dodge.) and enjoy the extra damage he's doing to himself.

 

[HolyForce]

Snake can't turn around or do any other attack until he throws or drops (shield to drop) the grenade.

If you grab Snake, the grenade drops. The best throw to use if you land a grab is down because it will stomp on Snake and the nade will explode on him, damaging only him; not you. If he 'just pulled' the nade, it will explode after the fact and you can usually dodge it (or choose a better grab to use in this situation).

A well-trained 'grenade countering' Snake isn't as straightforward as those of you who haven't played one think. It's extremely difficult.

Most 'grenade countering' Snakes will shield to drop (usually the first) nade and roll around, making it difficult to predict and execute a successful grab attempt. You can't tornado or do any multi hit attacks (which is most everything Meta has) because you'll explode the nade.

Without grenades, it's easy for my Meta to slash Snake's face off. However, the Snake will happily explode both of us over and over and when we're both at 150%+ he'll aim for a tilt-kill while all my killing moves end up just exploding his grenade on me again - and not to mention his weight is much much heavier than Meta so 150 to 150 the Snake is actually winning, in a light.

 

[Crazy Cloud]

A well-trained 'grenade countering' Snake isn't as straightforward as those of you who haven't played one think. It's extremely difficult.

Most 'grenade countering' Snakes will shield to drop (usually the first) nade and roll around, making it difficult to predict and execute a successful grab attempt. You can't tornado or do any multi hit attacks (which is most everything Meta has) because you'll explode the nade.

Without grenades, it's easy for my Meta to slash Snake's face off. However, the Snake will happily explode both of us over and over and when we're both at 150%+ he'll aim for a tilt-kill while all my killing moves end up just exploding his grenade on me again - and not to mention his weight is much much heavier than Meta so 150 to 150 the Snake is actually winning, in a light.

I'll agree, speculation on how to deal with something I've never played against doesn't hold water. Which is why until I find one to play to have some decent input, I'll probably just stick to reading instead of replying with suggestions.

They have limited options with one in hand. A list of the possible actions after pulling a grenade would be good for search for countering this techinque and it's actions.

I came up with a few after playing around with snake

Cooking it, waiting for a hit

-Cooked and thrown

-Approacing with the 'nade

-Spot Dodge when the 'nade detonates


Dropping it

-Spot Dodge so you hit the 'nade while they're uneffected

-Roll behind the 'nade (If the space is there) and shooting out a nikita

-If you're close, rolling behind you (which would bait some MKs into a down-smash, hitting the 'nade with the first hit, interrupting the attack before snake is hit with the second)

-Again, rolling behind the MK, pulling out another 'nade (Which, not being a snake main, I couldn't think of the all the tatics to follow this up with, but I'd imagine there's a lot)


Without maining snake, I'm handicapped for coming up with more ideas, but those who do main him could easily add to the list. Also, holding the 'nade doesn't seem to be as hard to play against (with so few options) compared to the options when dropped. You yourself said that playing one is very tricky. Maybe you could add to the list, or comment on what your reaction some of those actions on the list would be? Maybe even add some actions you saw that aren't on the list and what you did?

As soon as I play one, I'll be back with some experience and may be able to contribute with more than pure speculation.

 

[HolyForce]

I wasn't belittling your suggestions, Crazy Cloud. Sorry if I came across like that. Your input is wholeheartedly welcomed, regardless.

Another ‘mix-up’ Snake has is predicting which method you're going to use to approach him (which he can control via having the ability to have 2 nades out, and making the 1st drop to the ground at will, even if you're holding it) then he will lightly toss the nade to an effective direction.

I'm going to spend some time with my 2on2 partner who mains Snake to determine some good ideas to assist Meta in this seemingly terrible situation.

 

[Crazy Cloud]

Thanks, I appreciate it .

If at all possible, could you take a video of how your matches against your friend go? I tried looking for some snakes over at gfaqs and none of them did the 'nade counter (I had a friend try it, but he doesn't main snake, so it was average at best). That way I can see how this two 'nade strat works.

What about footstool to dair? The first chucked 'nade should of fallen, snake is still in the slouched stance (dropping the 'nade), and you should be able to pull off a dair immediately afterward. While it's not a pure counter, it could be a way to mix it up, like the other moves on your list (Assuming it works).

 

[HolyForce]

I have recording hardware on it's way to me, so I don't have to use my laptop's webcam. My friend is very good at the 'grenade counter' setups. I'll record when the hardware arrives - as that's what it's for!

 

[Elemental Knight]

So, I'm a Snake main who doesn't play MK, but I have a vested interest in being able to beat MK (an intense sibling rivalry), so needless to say, I'm adept at grenade countering. And to be quite honest, I don't know what Meta Knight has to beat it. I really think the topic creator has come up with some interesting things about how not to blow up the grenades, but even that, in part, misses the point of grenade countering.

First things first, I absolutely love trading damage with MK, even if I have to take some small hits to do it. At near 90%, an uptilt does the job, and other moves in the arsenal can suffice as well. If I can get MK to 100 with me staying under 150, I generally consider that a successful point, as I'm meticulous about avoiding MK's kill moves once I reach that kind of damage.

So about grenades. I love them close and at a distance, and I try to have one in my hand almost all of the time when facing MK (though that can change situationally). At a distance, they've got the potential to interrupt MK's approach and make him more apprehensive in general. And if he messes up, it's free damage. So in my mind, that forces MK in close. Oh, and in my mind it's never really a good idea to pick up Snake's grenades as he can force you to drop them (and in my mind most Snake players are especially cognizant of what their grenades are doing at all times--they have to be--so you're not going to catch them off guard). And I can sit there and toss grenades all day: it's potential for MK to take damage with little or no risk to me.

So that leaves how to approach. You approach from the air, and going on what the topic creator is saying, everything except nair will blow up a grenade (and MK's nair doesn't seem like the best approach idea to me). You could try to fake Snake out in the air until the grenade explodes, but that gives him freedom to cook them and/or drop and roll one such that the cycle must repeat.

You approach on the ground and most offensive moves (including specials) aren't really viable. The running dash attack given what the TC says is perhaps viable, but (and I'd need to test this), it seems to me that if I predict that and roll back and drop the grenade, your toe may blow it up.

This in my mind leaves the dash grab as the best of the potential options, and if that's all I have to worry about as a Snake player, them I'm not that worried at all. Again, I roll and drop it, I shield drop it and attack you before it blows, etc.

So taking this just from my perspective as Snake, it's a great situation to be in. I hate to cook grenades against a good MK, as MK is so fast (and anyways, if I can learn to sense the timing on grenades, so can talented opponents) and it's hard to hit them at all. So instead I like to either keep them in my hands or just toss them in the middle of the fray to disrupt MK's options.

And getting back to something I alluded to earlier on, that's the real reason I love grenades: disruption/limitation. MK is simply handicapped with grenades around, and with so much to worry about, it can be incredibly disruptive. Even if I'm not doing damage with them (which would be unusual), I'm still happy with copious amounts of grenades on the field.

That being said, I love to force MK near and keep grenade rolling (both behind him and away from him to avoid predictability) so that he must always be worried about what he's doing.

So I guess what I come to in all this is that the real way to go is to be acutely aware of what patterns the particular Snake you're facing demonstrates. If you see an opening, go for the grab. You might be able to find an opening via an aerial approach with the right timing, but it's no guarantee. I've been wondering what the MK community would come up with to counter grenades, and I look forward to seeing how this bears out in tournaments and such. I'm already thinking of ways to counter MK's counter to grenade countering (too many levels of abstraction there?), but more than anything I just enjoy seeing Brawl evolve.

 

[unixphone]

When I am using metal knight and my opponent is using snake, I would doge/block+roll the first grenade and attack him with his second one on his hand. I do that just because there it limits snake throw the second one right away and pull out another one. Of course, I know the explosion time as much as he does.