Q&A Meta Knight: Questions & Answers Thread (Don't make or reply to new threads just asking questions)

[Mewtwo929]

I fought a Meta Knight the other day who completely destroyed me. Started the battle by somehow juggling me while doing up airs and finished me off at the top of the screen with the Shuttle Loop at the top of the screen, killing me at a low percentage. Did it twice and I didn't really have a chance to react and trying to air dodge didn't work. How did he do that? It was cheap. I tried to recreate that in training mode but couldn't.

Umm, that MAY have been me. My name is Joestoes. And I love the combos I can do with him. My all-time favorite is definitely this although the other character pretty much HAS to be at 0%, dash attack - up smash (uncharged) - u-air x2 - wait for airdodge - up b. Another one I can use at higher (than the first) percentages is dash attack - fair or bair (as many times as I can). His down b (without holding b) and side b are a very good horizontal recovery. And if they start to notice your dash attacks, GRAB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He has an amazing b-throw, but I guess you can combo with his down throw as well (never tried it lol). Btdubs, I love his d-B, his f-smash, and his u-B (in air) as killing moves. His f-smash is great for killing at low percentages, for some reason they don't ever think it can reach as far as it can. My NNID is Joestoes if anyone wants me to show them the combos and/or show me their combos (I would LOVE that). Btw, his n-air is AMAZING at messing with them offstage. Do need to figure out the hitbox tho... His down air is good if you are over them at any time.

 

[AlanHaTe]

Any tips on how to deal or the MU against Bowser and Villager goes? Need help for those two for the weekend's mini tourney Dx

 

[AmishTechnology]

Bowser: He has a decent wall-off option in the neutral via jabs, and I think his fair and nair autocancel into jab effortlessly, so be mindful of that. His dair is incredibly punishable and shieldable. His uair is a KO move... but Meta Knight should avoid this with his jumps. You can't shield Down B... don't do that or he will fully-charged F-Smash you. He has a high-risk medium-reward wall-off option with flame breathe. If you're too predictable with your approaches (brainless dash attacks and grabs), he will start flaming you a lot or punting you with jabs and tilts. He is kind of bad at approaching himself because lolBowser. He has an instant OoS option via Up-B. It does 9%, but those stack up very quickly because they're easy to land against a careless MK. Bowsers love their Up-B, so be mindful of that. Okay, that just about covers his gimmicks and standard options. He's incredibly fun to combo, somewhat hard to gimp, obviously kind of hard to kill but thankfully has huge hitbox for shuttle loop, very fun to catch with Tornado, etc. Not a tough matchup, I think you can beat Bowsers who are otherwise slightly better players than you 60:40 - 70:30.

Villager: Common follow after grounded rocket is for him to jump and f-air to cover your aerial options in advance. You can beat him to the punch with hop -> fair/nair if he rockets too close lol. MK is one of the few characters who can harass a recovering Villager well. If they're recovering low, you can bair him and it will hit twice to pop balloons, then a third time to stage spike him against the wall. If he's ballooning far away, that's a free fair or reverse bair or whatever. Don't get hit by the bowling ball when recovering. Use Down B if you must to recover, this is one of the few matchups where that actually comes in handy. If he's being silly with the tree, you can walk up -> bait the timber chop -> down B into slash on reaction, but position yourself so that you don't slide off the edge and freefall afterwards if he's near edge lmao. Another popular follow up with rocket is for them to just dash ahead and go for a grab or whatever upon reaction while following rocket. If you shield the rocket too much, they'll go for this more. Relative to other characters who get roflstomped by Villager, you can easily penetrate their wall of fairs and stuff since you move so fast and punish with dash attack, dash grab, dash up-smash if they're above you, full hop nair/fair/uair into shuttleloop/rar bair. Non-customs, I'd hand this to MK 63:37 at the very most, 55:45 at the very least.

 

[FlamingForce]

My all-time favorite is definitely this although the other character pretty much HAS to be at 0%

At slightly higher %s (On diddy kong you can actually do this as early as 25%, maybe even sooner) a dash attack followed by uair strings into upb is a gauranteed kill combo.

 

[AlanHaTe]

thanks a lot for the input @ AmishTechnology

 

[FlamingForce]

So how do you guys deal with the combination of rage and uair strings > upb
I feel like rage kinda screws MK as a character tbh :\

 

[warionumbah2]

MK isn't all about uair strings. In rage just do 1 or 2 uairs then end it with shuttle loop, get the maximum damage. Uair is a hit confirm for shuttle loop anyway.

Rage actually makes mach tornado and up throw a solid kill option, shuttle loop scales pretty well with rage.

 

[FlamingForce]

Upthrow, really? In my experience, even if you do it in the middle of BF and have like 110% rage it doesnt start killing till well into the 140's

 

[ItoI6]

that isnt true at all upthrow kills midweight characters when at 100+ rage at like 145 on fds with di.

and rage makes you do less damage per hit but you can do things like hitconfirm a rising up air into shuttle loop kill at like 70%. it isnt exactly hard to set up either, just dash attack, empty hop full hop under them and wait and theyll airdodge most of the time for a free kill. down throw-upsmash while high in rage is pretty bad though. instead try down throw short hop upair and it will start comboing immediately even at 0%. just in general being high in rage means youll never get punished on hit which you need to worry about sometimes at lower percents.

 

[AlanHaTe]

that isnt true at all upthrow kills midweight characters when at 100+ rage at like 145 on fds with di.

and rage makes you do less damage per hit but you can do things like hitconfirm a rising up air into shuttle loop kill at like 70%. it isnt exactly hard to set up either, just dash attack, empty hop full hop under them and wait and theyll airdodge most of the time for a free kill. down throw-upsmash while high in rage is pretty bad though. instead try down throw short hop upair and it will start comboing immediately even at 0%. just in general being high in rage means youll never get punished on hit which you need to worry about sometimes at lower percents.

all this is pretty good to know, now I understand why some stuff I tried didn't work when my MK was in rage mode... need to learn more about rage mechanic Dx

 

[FlamingForce]

that isnt true at all upthrow kills midweight characters when at 100+ rage at like 145 on fds with di.

and rage makes you do less damage per hit but you can do things like hitconfirm a rising up air into shuttle loop kill at like 70%. it isnt exactly hard to set up either, just dash attack, empty hop full hop under them and wait and theyll airdodge most of the time for a free kill. down throw-upsmash while high in rage is pretty bad though. instead try down throw short hop upair and it will start comboing immediately even at 0%. just in general being high in rage means youll never get punished on hit which you need to worry about sometimes at lower percents.

Good info to have, cheers.
I must be remembering some uthrow %'s wrong.


Edit: So I got royally bodied by a TL player today who basically just ran to the side of the stage and threw projectiles, I had an amazingly difficult time getting past the projectile wall, especially the boomerang which constantly either interrupted my punish on its way back to TL or outright hit me. How do you guys approach a campy TL and also, what stages do you pick against him?

 

[Funbot28]

What are Meta Knights match ups?

 

[warionumbah2]

Edit: So I got royally bodied by a TL player today who basically just ran to the side of the stage and threw projectiles, I had an amazingly difficult time getting past the projectile wall, especially the boomerang which constantly either interrupted my punish on its way back to TL or outright hit me. How do you guys approach a campy TL and also, what stages do you pick against him?

What you need to do is take advantage of MKs amazing mid range tools and Tinks poor mid range tools, make sure you try to maintain a distance where DA can punish Tinks moves on reaction(any projectile he throws can get punished on reaction). The only way Tink can do anything somewhat safe is by having a bomb in hand, but pulling it out can also be punished and he can only hold it for a certain amount of time unlike Diddy Kong for example.

Tink has the same sword range as MK but his aerials come out slower, if Tink throws a boomerang and you grab him use up throw instead this rarely happens to me so i'm at a loss for words on what to do.

I feel comfortable fighting Tink on any stage because maintaining mid range is easy on a slow character(for MK standards he cannot outrun us lol). MK shouldn't be walled out unless you're playing FG in lag, just dash into shield and boom you're at mid range. MKs ground speed allows you to always stay at a comfortable distance against slower characters.

We have the advantage off stage too without a doubt. If the Tink player is smart he won't go for anything other than bombs, its a favorable MU for us.

What are Meta Knights match ups?

How about you post what you think his MUs are and work from there?

 

[Login_Sinker]

How do I play the neutral game as MK? I know that his neutral is kind of sub par, and I often have trouble looking for opportunities to get in for dash attack/grab punishes.

 

[Lavani]

So I got royally bodied by a TL player today who basically just ran to the side of the stage and threw projectiles, I had an amazingly difficult time getting past the projectile wall, especially the boomerang which constantly either interrupted my punish on its way back to TL or outright hit me. How do you guys approach a campy TL and also, what stages do you pick against him?

A general tip for dealing with projectiles: walk, don't run. It might sound counterintuitive ("he is camping me out, so I need to get in as quickly as possible"), but you can't shield during initial dash frames, while you can shield at any time while walking. Patiently approaching and shielding as needed is a safer and more effective way to approach, and by not running you keep all of your options available instead of locking yourself into limited options out of a dash.

 

[FlamingForce]

What you need to do is take advantage of MKs amazing mid range tools and Tinks poor mid range tools, make sure you try to maintain a distance where DA can punish Tinks moves on reaction(any projectile he throws can get punished on reaction). The only way Tink can do anything somewhat safe is by having a bomb in hand, but pulling it out can also be punished and he can only hold it for a certain amount of time unlike Diddy Kong for example.

Tink has the same sword range as MK but his aerials come out slower, if Tink throws a boomerang and you grab him use up throw instead this rarely happens to me so i'm at a loss for words on what to do.

I feel comfortable fighting Tink on any stage because maintaining mid range is easy on a slow character(for MK standards he cannot outrun us lol). MK shouldn't be walled out unless you're playing FG in lag, just dash into shield and boom you're at mid range. MKs ground speed allows you to always stay at a comfortable distance against slower characters.

We have the advantage off stage too without a doubt. If the Tink player is smart he won't go for anything other than bombs, its a favorable MU for us.



How about you post what you think his MUs are and work from there?

What kind of distance exactly is mid-range? I'm not sure quite how fast my reflexes are but without a solid read I strongly doubt I'll be able to DA him on reaction when I see a boomerang toss, I tried staying close but found myself getting hit by an awful ton of F-smashes because that first hit comes out really really quickly imo :|
When I tried to stay out of range of the Fsmash he would just run the other way and throw more things at me.

 

[warionumbah2]

What kind of distance exactly is mid-range?

Stole an image which shows what mid range looks like.

Spoiler

If you're getting hit by F-Smash then you're too close especially when Tink has a small sword, at worse a boomerang will clank with your dash attack. This is more like a bait and punish on reaction type of MU, if its online pray to Sakurai that it doesn't lag. Have you got a video of the match? If you post it on the MK video section you'll get more feedback its hard for me to vision Tink running away fro ma faster character and 'walling' him out.

 

[FlamingForce]

Sadly dont have a vid but thx anyway, I'll try to apply this.

 

[Funbot28]

What you need to do is take advantage of MKs amazing mid range tools and Tinks poor mid range tools, make sure you try to maintain a distance where DA can punish Tinks moves on reaction(any projectile he throws can get punished on reaction). The only way Tink can do anything somewhat safe is by having a bomb in hand, but pulling it out can also be punished and he can only hold it for a certain amount of time unlike Diddy Kong for example.

Tink has the same sword range as MK but his aerials come out slower, if Tink throws a boomerang and you grab him use up throw instead this rarely happens to me so i'm at a loss for words on what to do.

I feel comfortable fighting Tink on any stage because maintaining mid range is easy on a slow character(for MK standards he cannot outrun us lol). MK shouldn't be walled out unless you're playing FG in lag, just dash into shield and boom you're at mid range. MKs ground speed allows you to always stay at a comfortable distance against slower characters.

We have the advantage off stage too without a doubt. If the Tink player is smart he won't go for anything other than bombs, its a favorable MU for us.



How about you post what you think his MUs are and work from there?

Well I find one of his most struggling match ups is Sonic, he is too fast for him. Especially with Spin Dash

 

[Superbat]

What do you mid-top level metaknight players do to improve your gameplay. I feel like I have a trash metaknight and I don't know what to improve on.

 

[(Buddha)]

How do i spike with Bair and Fair? And who should i fight against to practice it?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

How do i spike with Bair and Fair? And who should i fight against to practice it?

You can't spike w/ fair. For Bair, I think you can spike it if you fast fall it.

 

[FlamingForce]

A question about MK's neutral options.

I've run into a bit of a bump because I don't really know what his options are, my opponents often figure out rather quickly that I mainly rely on either baiting or the run up dash attack / grab mixup. tried some general pressure game with AC dair and such, but I don't think this is the kinda thing I should be doing, what other options are worth trying? Or should I focus more on baiting things out of someone?

 

[AmishTechnology]

You're asking the hardest question for MKs to answer.

Sometimes, MK can beat their aerials head-on with fair/RAR bair, but if you misread them, you're going to get shielded and punished because his aerials don't autocancel. Full hop fair is actually quite decent against certain characters like Villager if they get very telegraphed with their own fairs and whatnot. A lot of characters do straight up beat MK's fair due to range or something, so it's quite character-specific.

Sometimes, against stuff like Sheik spamming safe fairs, you just have to YOLO read them and do Usmash (or Utilt if you have some serious balls and positioning). Convert this into a combo. Or you can do a hard read or option covering TORNADOOOOOOOO (such as if your opponent does a terrible roll and ends up near you or side dodges horribly, or ledge guarding mind games since Tornado covers get up attack and rolls while shuttle loop covers jump). Some characters have dairs and shuffl approaches that are literally outranged by your Usmash lol, be mindful of these characters and that you can actually use this.

Sometimes, when they're approaching you, your only way to stuff them semi-reliably is ftilt. Dtilt works when they're really really close I guess lol, you have to use your judgment on when dtilt will work better than ftilt. But Meta Knight typically likes people approaching him unless they have banana or something.

Oftentimes, when you have a stock lead, it's just optimal to keep camping and baiting them if they can't outcamp you... Smashville platform is quite abusable in a lot of MUs when you're in the lead. You've figured it out yourself, Meta Knight's approach and neutral is not the greatest.

 

[IPoD Max]

Does anyone else struggle in the DeDeDe MU? I haven't fought that many, so it might just be unfamiliarity with the MU, but I find him to be incredibly annoying. He can control the ground well with f-tilt and jab, and when i try to zone with dair or pressure from the air, he just spams gordos. I get most of my kills through up-air strings to up-b, OoS up-b, or making a read with f-smash, but against DeDeDe i can't barely ever hit an f-smash because of his range and gordo spam, and he dies at a stupidly high % off the top since he's so damn fat. That being said, he's incredibly easy to up-air string, but I just can't convert for the kill because he doesn't die at the end.

I find this particularly frustrating because I don't really have problems with Bowser, Ganon, DK, or really any other slow character in general.

 

[warionumbah2]

If its online you're gonna struggle real hard, its a very reaction based MU tbh. MK should be locked on the ground since D3's aerials outrange ours and we should also try to stay at mid range.

Spoiler

We want be in Fire breaths range because Ftilt is highly punishable and Gordos are punishable too. But this is where online ****s us over because you need to react well enough to reflect the Gordo with Dash attack, or powershield to ignore shield damage.

If D3 is off stage i prefer to wait at the ledge because if he goes for the stage he'll get put into a disadvantageous state by dash attack, when D3 grabs the ledge roll towards it and hold shield, D3 will fall off and use Uair(unless he's dumb any ledge options can be covered using shuttle loop and tornado), After one Uair move away and wait for D3 to regrab the ledge and punish with Bair.

Battlefield,Helberd(lol we wreck him there),Town and City,Lylat Cruise and SV(maybe) are good stages against D3. FD is our worst stage and D3's best so if you play FG you'll be at a huge disadvantage against him which is why people are under the impression that D3 beats MK: Lag + Bad stage + good stage for opponent = lolwhatsthepoint

Helberd is one sided and TnC will negate the killing problem thanks to lower ceiling. Lylat Cruise is janky but it doesn't hinder our recovery unlike D3, he needs to gamble hard if he wants to snap the ledge.

Only go BF if you're confident in abusing ledge mechanics and edgeguarding. At this point i don't think any heavy weights have the advantage on MK, unless the patch jacks us up or buffs them.

 

[LostinpinK]

I agree with warionumbah2's post.
I had the exact same thoughts yesterday while playing with a good friend who lives away and has a great DDD. It's all about diving in after a jab / ftilt, which is really harder to do online.
I'm not to sure about Lylat against Dedede though, since he has some gordos shenanigans, smash cancels and plateforms have the right height to allow him to bair / utilt you easily.

 

[TimeCrab]

So what sort of controller set up to you all use? Is having tap jump on easier for stringing together upairs since you can just hold up and it'll automatically jump?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

My control setup:

Tap Jump off
X: Grab
R: Jump (mainly for OoS Shuttle Loop)
Z: Shield (Now that I think about it, not sure why. It was a carryover from Brawl I guess).

Everything else is normal.

 

[IPoD Max]

Warionumbah2

Thanks for your post, that was really helpful. I've been playing as many DDDs as I can in the past few days, and staying in that mid range locked on the ground really is effective.

 

[Urameshi_]

Does using dc without the hit stale the move when it's used with the hit?

 

[LostinpinK]

I haven't tested it specifically, but considering how staling works, I don't see any reason why it should. If you activate the hit and it doesn't connect, it won't stale the move either. That's true for every move.

 

[Kaffei]

How do you make dimensional cape attack forwards like this: https://youtu.be/PInSdCozG-k?t=1237

EDIT: Nvm, figured it out

 

[FlamingForce]

How do you make dimensional cape attack forwards like this: https://youtu.be/PInSdCozG-k?t=1237

EDIT: Nvm, figured it out

Care to share? I havent been able to figure it out.

 

[Lavani]

Care to share? I havent been able to figure it out.

Release the control stick before he reappears.

inputs when reappearing give you that attack.
Holding forward makes Meta Knight turn around and slash (stronger attack)
Holding backward does a weaker attack, presumably with more range.

 

[The Big Wang Theory]

What options are there to follow up on an uair String if you aren't able to fit in any more uairs? I know there's Shuttle Loop to finish it off and snag some damage or you could read their airdodge and punish with Mach Tornado, but I feel like there are others I'm missing.

 

[Ulevo]

What options are there to follow up on an uair String if you aren't able to fit in any more uairs? I know there's Shuttle Loop to finish it off and snag some damage or you could read their airdodge and punish with Mach Tornado, but I feel like there are others I'm missing.

Basically Shuttle Loop is the best option in terms of consistent damage and potential knock outs. It's the only option that can reliably follow up when the opponent is above you after several strings. Mach Tornado will do more damage, but it requires an air dodge read, which is not a bad option if you've conditioned your opponent, if they have relatively weak vertical game or their hurtbox size is large. If you're only chaining a few, or the opponent is low %, you can go for a neutral air for extra damage and place them near the ledge or off the stage. This isn't bad against characters who fall faster than Meta Knight because he might be punished for using Shuttle Loop early. It can also cover an air dodge. Against characters who don't have good frame data on their air dodges and do not fall to quickly, you can frame trap them and catch them with a down air if they manage to whiff past your up air string. If they DI left or right and you can't manage a Shuttle Loop safely or string another up air, go for forward or back air. Finally, if you have an opponent who thinks they can challenge you vertically for whatever reason or you start a string at low %, you can always fall early and do an up tilt. Virtually nothing out prioritizes it, and it can net you free hits in situations where your combo may have ended early.

Those are your options in a nutshell.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

How do you get in against a Mega Man that's zoning really hard?

There is only significant lag on pellets if they commit to a 3rd. You can't Mach Tornado or Drill Rush on reaction either because they're faster. The gear also outpriortizes a lot of things we do. I feel like we go great once we break past neutral but he does a very good job of exploiting our weak neutral game. I feel like in order to break past neutral, we have to take bigger risks than the Mega Man does.

 

[FlamingForce]

How do you get in against a Mega Man that's zoning really hard?

we have to take bigger risks than the Mega Man does.

I'm not too experienced in this MU, but sadly this is probably just what it is: We have to take bigger risks and we better get used to it.
Have you tried catching the gear? It's not too difficult and gives you a ranged option. I wouldn't know how to deal with the pellets..

 

[Urameshi_]

so does anyone use the gamecube controllers c stick for aerials or do they stick to A?

i just recently got one and i was so accustomed to using the pro controllers c stick for aerials but it's so different now.