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Meta Knight Matchup Discussion

3GOD

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
745
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Athens, GA
I have begun playing around with Samus, and I'm particularly interested in her matchup against Meta Knight. It might seem initially that MK has a major advantage in this match, but I'm beginning to think it may be even or slightly in Samus' favor for a few reasons.

THIS IS BASED LARGELY ON THEORY AND ONLY SLIGHTLY ON EXPERIENCE.

1) Meta Knight is slow in the air. By this, I do not mean that his aerial attacks are slow, but that he is just slow moving in the air. If MK attempts any kind of aerial approach, you can basically Zair and stop him dead in his tracks. Retreating Fairs also seem useful when he does finally begin to close the gap. To sum up, Samus seems to stop any aerial approach from MK.

2) Samus' Ftilt and projectiles can stuff Meta Knight's ground approach. Since MK is slow in the air, he relies heavily on approaching with his quick running speed into grabs, shield counters, dash attacks, etc. Grounded super missiles can slow him down significantly (use a fox-trot missile to adjust your spacing), and when he does get into melee range, the Ftilt seems to have enough range and speed to beat his good ground attacks (namely Dsmash). In other words, the Ftilt keeps him at bay on the ground, and if he tries to roll inside your range, you can jab him. Dtilt can also be used with basically the same result, but I think it should be saved for the KO.

3) Up-B out of shield escapes shield pressure. If there is one point here that concerns me, it is this one. Meta Knight can really pressure shields with his Shuttle Loop -> Glide Attack canceled into Dsmash not to mention the tornado. Samus can escape shield pressure with her Screw Attack, but a simple spot dodge from MK leaves you floating above him completely vulnerable. Rolling is a poor option since Samus has a slow roll, but the safety of the Up-B out of shield also concerns me. Obviously, one would prefer to avoid shield pressure all together, but it's bound to happen from time to time. This ability to safely escape shield pressure may be a deciding factor in who has the upper hand.

4) Meta Knight is light, and Samus is heavy. One area where Samus seems to struggle is KO power. Luckily, MK is one of the lightest characters in the game and also struggles with getting a KO sometimes. If you save your Dtilt, you can get the KO about 110-115% (better to play it safe and go 115%) while MK will probably need to get Samus to 150% at least, provided he doesn't get a gimp KO. You could try to get a spike with Dair, but MK is pretty tough to edgeguard in general. The Dtilt is safer but obviously requires MK to have taken more damage.

Anyway, I'm just considering these few factors and thinking that this matchup might not be so bad for Samus. Is there something I'm missing? What do you guys struggle with in the match? I really need to play around with this matchup vs. someone good to get a better feel for it, but I think these points definitely have some credulity.
 

Paradigm

Smash Ace
Joined
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I haven't had much experience with good MKs.

Those I have played, though, struggle to finish me off far more than they do with other characters. Like Samus, MK doesn't have that many KO moves, making possible to stay alive for quite a while. I've played games where I'm easily at 200+ damage against MK's who I can KO at just over half that. Mostly dtilts with the occasional bair or fsmash if I catch the MK being silly. Samus may be slightly harder than most other characters to finish off thanks to her medium-range zair game (while MK needs to be up in your grill for the KO), but MK has trouble KOing everyone, so I wouldn't give Samus too much credit for that.

That's really the only respect in which I don't feel like I'm using a garbage-tier character. MK's fast and small enough to get around the zair with relative ease. Once past the zair his fast disjointed hitboxes destroy Samus up close. The tornado eats through nearly everything (the full charge shot isn't exactly a good corner stone for a matchup like this). I honestly can't think of anything practical to do in this matchup against a solid MK player.

I wouldn't recommend Samus for this match up. At all.
 

Gum

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 19, 2007
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Against good MK's, you wanna use similar tactics to what you would use against Marth. This is largely due to the fact that he doesn't have any projectiles, so he MUST get in close. Short Hop dairs will evade and punish MK's dash grab and dash attack, and you can follow up with an up B or wutever after the dair connects. Use bombs liberally since they clog up MK's ground approach and interrupt his combos. If he goes into the air you can zair him. Use power missiles as well to build up damage and eat his shield. Always keep a charge shot ready because:

1) MK is light as hell and will die to a charge shot at pretty low damage.

2) After pummeling his shield with power missiles he will be more likely to get shield stabbed by the charge shot.

MK is supposed to be the best character in the game, but I've been busting MK's *** a lot lately and he is starting to get less and less scary. Try some stuff and see what happens.
 

Zastrozzi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
40
Bombs, bombs, and more bombs. That's my mantra when going up against MK.

My biggest problem is when they approach from directly above me. Usmash is baitable, and all it takes is one MK dair and you're going to be combo'd for 20-30%.

I think that's the biggest problem with the matchup. When Metaknight gets momentum going, he can really wreck house, but when Samus is in control... she still can't do very much. Samus has the advantage in the match as long as she guesses right *every single time*, but once she fails to predict MK, she loses a lot of ground.
 

0RLY

A great conversation filler at bars and parties
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MK can shad through super missiles because they come out so slowly. Two homing missiles are harder to shad through, but MK can attack them to blow up the missiles. Zair will punish an aerial approach, but most of MK's approaches are through grabs and dash attacks. Plus, MK can cover a lot more ground than you can, so a single miss will likely cost you 20% or more. MK's disjointed hitbox on his sword can easily go through any and all of your ground attacks. Ftilt would only work if MK is lagging from a previous move, and as we all know, MK doesn't lag. If anything you should ftilt his approaches, since ftilt has more range than his grab and it clashes with his dash attack. MK's fair/bair has more range than Samus' fair. Samus' most reliable kill move against MK is her dtilt, which may be hard to land on somebody so small.

tl;dr - Samus should not EVER fight small characters. Counterpick, always. If you insist on using Samus CP Halberd and camp in the middle. Zair is easier to land, and a large platform is above you to protect from aerial approaches.
 

Paradigm

Smash Ace
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Nov 21, 2005
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If you insist on using Samus CP Halberd and camp in the middle. Zair is easier to land, and a large platform is above you to protect from aerial approaches.
Really? That'd be my banned stage if anything. While I may have the advantage for a short time camping the middle I can't hold it very long. My opponent isn't going to stand there shielding the zair's forever. While it is difficult to zair short opponents on a flat stage, it's flat out impossible to do so if they're on lower ground. The platform keeps me from approaching from above and through-the-ground approaches are predictable and easy to defend against - once I lose the middle I lost the stock.

Hmissiles and tippered zairs both work on short characters if you have the distance between you. Getting this distance, however, often means you have to give ground - can't camp in one place so much as perpetually run away.

Against MK I'd go FD. This way he can't drop me on the platforms after a tornado and keep me from punishing him. I can see any approach in the air coming - no tricky dropping through platforms. While he moves fast on the ground I have options such as sh dair (which can't be interrupted by a platform), retreating zairs and dtilts. Go FD, ban halberd.
 

Coldfront

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 16, 2008
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I hate this matchup because he's **** near a Samus counter. I played a decent MK yesterday. Uncharged shots worked to stop his dash, and jab to dtilt got me into some combos, as did missiles to grab to dthrow. I faired pretty well whenever I got him into the air for some juggles, but what annoyed the hell out of me was dsmash to roll to dsmash. A lot of the time he got his shield up in time to block my dsmash used to 0punish his roll. And the lag between his attacks is almost non existent. The fights always came down to the wire, but his size, priority, and attack speed made the fight pretty hard. A few of my attacks simply went over his head. Also the fact that it was nearly impossible to ever gimp his recovery was also an issue, since I had to keep knocking him off the top with dtilt.

Against a better MK, the fight would have been much worse. I still haven't found a good way to stop his ground game outside of uncharged shots, and even when that works following up is tough is he's out of range for a jab or side tilt.
 

0RLY

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Fine, then CP Yoshi's Island. You have lower ground near the edge of the stage. Personally, I'm better at controlling center stage. If you're better at controlling the edge, by all means do so.
 

Paradigm

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What? I don't "control" any part of the stage. I just run away and zair all day. I prefer maps where there's no where your opponent can go to get away from the zair (as they can with halberd). If you can actually hold a spot with Samus I give you major props. Maybe I've become to dependent on retreating zairs.
 

Gum

Smash Journeyman
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Full charge shots should be used to stop Mach Tornado in this match-up, with jab cancel to dtilt as a reliable kill. SPAM BOMBS on the ground and punish with zair in the air.
 

ADHD

Smash Hero
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Feb 18, 2008
Messages
7,194
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New Jersey
Alright I always vs a great meta player and he wins most of the time but sometimes I win :)

THe up B can outprioritize the tornado during the beginning frames, but and the "eye" of the tornado is always vunerable. If he tornado spams you just have to wait for an opening to escape, and can DI with bombs to help you.

The Uair into a homing missle is so useful and it often stops them from reacting in places like battlefield where they land on platforms. But either way, its still good against him. Alot of meta players tend to try and swarm you and can run into your grapple beam, then you can dispose of them with the uair or anything.

MAIN THING: GET HIM ABOVE YOU.

The dsmash and dtilt should be utilized respectively. The dsmash for if he's rolling, and the dtilt for close combat if he's about to react.
 

Gum

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You can bait him into your dair off the stage too if you set up with a bomb. good MK's always chase you off the stage so its a good opprtunity to turn the tables and get a stock.
 
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