Melee's becoming hard to find; don't be scared to switch back!

[Foxy]

Since Brawl's release, I, as many others, have realized that Brawl isn't exactly the greatest game for competitive players. Consequently, Brawl tournaments are low-energy, low-fun, and time-intensive. Brawl is, however, the dominant game in Smash tournaments.

Despite all my efforts to find Melee, I've only been able to attend 3 Brawl tournaments since release. Did I want to play Brawl? No. But did I have a choice?

Obviously, while Brawl was fresh, players were blind with hype and quickly accepted it as the new tournament standard. Almost all tourneys focused on it. That was to be expected. By now, the Smash scene has gained the knowledge of Brawl's faults and realized that good players would often rather go to the driving range than a Brawl tournament.

Then why are most tournaments still centered on Brawl?

There is a clear reason why Brawl is the game of choice for a tournament in the eyes of a TO: it draws in larger crowds. However, looking more closely, this isn't as serious as many assume.

In 2007 Melee had a record year, continuing growth in attendance and frequency of tourneys since the beginning of the scene. It certainly had no problems sustaining itself. But Brawl certainly must draw in more players, correct?

Not necessarily true, to a high degree. Next time you're at a tourney, hosting or playing, take a look: how many people do you recognize (unless you're OOS)? How many people were tourney-goers in Melee? How many people at Brawl tournaments complain about the game? Every time a large-scale tourney for Brawl is announced, responses are always of the nature "why Brawl?" or "I wish this were Melee". Players feel some obligation to play the newer game, but most are detaching from that.

My point is this: a lot of the players attending Brawl tournaments, and certainly the vast majority of the high placers and frequenters, were competitive Melee-ers. And as we can see from history, the group has been able to support tournaments on its own. So why are TO's afraid to organize for Melee? There have been a few successful large-scale Melee events since Brawl's release, and they were much more enjoyed than Brawl counterparts. Also, much of the new Brawl userbase is younger kids (usually the 10-15 range) and they don't really have access to tournaments.

I just want to further discuss the downsides of holding Melee tourneys. Sure, the attendance would take a hit, but it would likely be small. Players would enjoy it more and hype would be build for successive tournaments. Now seems like a golden time for new Melee bi-weeklies or monthlies if there's doubts that reverting would have good results. I don't think many Melee tournaments have failed or been criticized for not holding Brawl, yet the opposite is sometimes true. At release I attended a 200-person scrub tourney, which was obviously hype-filled, but since then I've been to one very small Brawl tourney and another medium-sized one that was a disappointment in comparison to the Melee.

If any TO's are willing to discuss this I'd love to hear from them their experiences with two issues: what are the attendance level trends you've seen in Brawl/Melee tournaments, and do you think that Melee tournaments could be built over time back to their old quality?

 

[Cinder]

Why hasn't anyone replied to this *watches as someone replies while he's typing*

This is pretty much the truth, imo...a lot of people that play in Brawl tourneys do it for the money and prizes...it's a shame, really...

And I myself plan to host tournaments in the Richmond area, as soon as I get a good venue that I can actually pay for <__<...I also wanna host a three-day Smashfest for Melee...

 

[Vyse]

What I call the 'Brawl Problem' is as you describe. Brawl is new, it has flooded the 'smash' world with many many new players. Melee takes a hit, of course. TO's are generally inclined to run the game that will attract more people.

The 'Brawl Problem' as it were however, needn't be a problem at all. You've got to take a different approach to the problem, and look at it from a different angle.

What we have here is a magnet. A magnet that will draw new players to the smash community, and existing ones to tournaments. We've already seen this. Since the release of Brawl, the number of competitive smashers in my state of Australia alone has tripled.

I have always been a firm believer that we as TO's need to find a way to accomodate for all smashers, and promote the growth of the 'Smash series' as competitive games.

Run events for both games. It's really that simple.

More people = More money = More justification for holding longer and larger scale tournaments.

I've said this many times, so many times that I'm sure people groan when I say it, but FAST had the right idea. Plan tournaments months in advance, with the intention of including both games. Reproducing the success of FAST is what will put Melee back on the map.

 

[Jam Stunna]

New players are the lifeblood of any community, and like it or not, Melee is a game that's going to be seven years old this November. You're not really fighting against Brawl, but time itself, and that's a battle no one can win. If you're asking new players to play an old game, you really are asking for alot.

Brawl was supposed to be our opportunity to reset the community back to Day One, and that hasn't worked out due to Brawl's flaws. I hate to say it, but competitive Smash is only going to dwindle from this point. 2007 wasn't only Smash's best year, but it was it's peak. It can only get worse from here.

 

[Foxy]

What I call the 'Brawl Problem' is as you describe. Brawl is new, it has flooded the 'smash' world with many many new players. Melee takes a hit, of course. TO's are generally inclined to run the game that will attract more people.

The 'Brawl Problem' as it were however, needn't be a problem at all. You've got to take a different approach to the problem, and look at it from a different angle.

What we have here is a magnet. A magnet that will draw new players to the smash community, and existing ones to tournaments. We've already seen this. Since the release of Brawl, the number of competitive smashers in my state of Australia alone has tripled.

I have always been a firm believer that we as TO's need to find a way to accomodate for all smashers, and promote the growth of the 'Smash series' as competitive games.

Run events for both games. It's really that simple.

More people = More money = More justification for holding longer and larger scale tournaments.

I've said this many times, so many times that I'm sure people groan when I say it, but FAST had the right idea. Plan tournaments months in advance, with the intention of including both games. Reproducing the success of FAST is what will put Melee back on the map.

Yes, I read your thread on the subject, it was great.

However, from the events I've been to in my area I haven't noticed a very large increase in Smashers thanks to Brawl. It's pretty much the same people, just with a different game, with some new guys here and there.

Tournaments for both games are of course good ideas and any large, hyped, and defined well-in-advanced tournament is extremely welcome. But not all tourneys are like that. I'm advocating that small and medium tournaments start running Melee only if they're getting the same vibes I am: that almost everyone at the Brawl tournaments are just begging for Melee.

Of course there's also the obvious counter-argument that it's very difficult and complicated to run a good multi-day, multi-game even smoothly. I and many other competitive players would rather see a huge one-day Melee-only tournament than a multi-day Brawl/Melee tourney riddled with complications and a stark contrast between the level of competition, fun, and excitement of the two events.

I feel that now in large-scale Brawl and Melee tournaments most people get hyped that Melee is included and just take Brawl for granted as a mandatory thing. At the event all of the good players enjoy Melee and simply tolerate Brawl. There are usually only a few good players who are excited about the Brawl portions and a larger handful of brand-new players who are similar but really don't care as much and don't expect to win anything.

tl;dr version: Host large Brawl/Melee tourneys if you're confident in your capabilities and organization, host small/medium/large Melee-only tournaments to be safer and please most Smashers.

P.S. I concur with Vyse about Brawl's ability to actually bolster Melee's popularity, as a number of new Brawlers who are experienced in other fighters or competitive games have learned much about Melee now and are inclined to pick it up seriously over Brawl, thus adding to the player base. Better than nothing.

New players are the lifeblood of any community, and like it or not, Melee is a game that's going to be seven years old this November. You're not really fighting against Brawl, but time itself, and that's a battle no one can win. If you're asking new players to play an old game, you really are asking for alot.

Brawl was supposed to be our opportunity to reset the community back to Day One, and that hasn't worked out due to Brawl's flaws. I hate to say it, but competitive Smash is only going to dwindle from this point. 2007 wasn't only Smash's best year, but it was it's peak. It can only get worse from here.

I wouldn't say that it will get "worse"... "smaller", rather. Also, there are many new/newer Melee players or old Melee players who are only recently playing at a higher level, so the game isn't 7 years old for everyone. After playing for 5 years I started getting into competitive play along with a number of friends, and I see that happen all the time. Scar is a relatively new player, M2K is a somewhat recent top player, even PC Chris came late. Also, Smash communities get new gamers into Smash all the time.

While I'm not optimistic about Smash's future with the new Brawl crowd, I do believe that '08 may finish on par with or surpassing '07. The larger Melee events have also been successful, so that's still alive, despite being trampled by initial Brawl hype.

Truly deep competitive games are played forever. I think that Melee will become a game like Starcraft. If SSB4 continues the same logic as Brawl (which it almost certainly will) then Melee shall live on with all Smashers, if at a more niche level.

 

[Vyse]

Heh, but with starcraft, at least the developers know that the game they're making needs to be competitive. Thus all the playtesting that has gone on.

 

[Foxy]

Heh, but with starcraft, at least the developers know that the game they're making needs to be competitive. Thus all the playtesting that has gone on.

Good point... they Blizz knows it's competitive and keeps patches going and such which really helps extend the lifespan.

Can't believe I missed that.

 

[Vyse]

I think I read that they had a group of Pro Korean players to play test it, and they ended up having to cut an entire race because it was too broken.

O.O

 

[Foxy]

I think I read that they had a group of Pro Korean players to play test it, and they ended up having to cut an entire race because it was too broken.

O.O

Hmm, I don't remember that.

But yet, SC2 is definitely getting as much input as possible to make it an even better competitive game, if that's possible.

Kind of hard to top a game that has 5 television stations and players who make 6-figure incomes playing it, though... but Blizz is pretty amazing. And they've got cash to do it with (lol WoW).

 

[Oracle]

Majority of brawl players are close minded people with their heads up their ***** that just say lulululululZ melee is far turny***s lulululululz and play brawl because it's easy.

These people are usually stupid anyways, and therefore, are easy to get money out of.

 

[Foxy]

Majority of brawl players are close minded people with their heads up their ***** that just say lulululululZ melee is far turny***s lulululululz and play brawl because it's easy.

These people are usually stupid anyways, and therefore, are easy to get money out of.

Most of those folks are posters here on Smashboards and actually a minority, however. I haven't met a single "Brawl noob" at any of the tournaments I've been to since release.

Also, you can't really get more money out of someone stupid at a tournament because it's a fixed price anyways.

But I see your point.

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

I went to a tourney that actually had more people playing Brawl than Melee.
(I live in Socal)

I honestly don't believe that Melee will ever go back to the way it was in 2007 for two reasons:
1. The Melee scene in 2007 couldn't get any better IMO

2. As long as there is Brawl, there will always be that great schism that divides the community. No matter how many people switch back to Melee, there will always be people who like Brawl better and their side has all the hardheaded people who wouldn't try Melee even if they were threatened to die and go to hell.

 

[Scar]

If you're asking new players to play an old game, you really are asking for alot.

I just started playing Melee like a year and a half ago and I was in the thick of the scene (mid-level tourney player) about 6 months ago. I was a new player and I begged for more Melee because it's an incredibly deep game, I have never seen anything like it.

In my opinion while Melee may be an old game, the concepts and ideas and techniques and strategies required to be a good player are more fresh than any of the games that have come out since.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Where I live there are no strictly melee players...but I usually convince the group of friends im in to play melee after our brawl get togethers

I never told them this, but its boring has hell when we play brawl I always try to cut our time for brawl short so we can play more melee X D *shh dont tell them!*

 

[OmegaXXII]

In my opinion while Melee may be an old game, the concepts and ideas and techniques and strategies required to be a good player are more fresh than any of the games that have come out since.

If indeed Smash 4 turns out like Brawl which I hope not, then for this reason, Melee will be the "one" out of all 3 smash games that's still going to be talked about, even after Brawl's hype goes downhill which hasn't yet, but will eventually.

and the sad thing is since Melee is hard to find nowadays, and since a bunch of these Brawl scrubs just got into the smash scene due to Brawl, I believe among the Brawl scene, there might be some willing to play it competitavely, but yet don't know of Melee's existance, but if a TO were to organize and introduce Melee to a Brawl hype'd tourney, then I am sure that it will at least catch the attention of some who could potentially become Melee go'ers and could possibly make Melee rise up somewhat in terms of tourney hype.

 

[Scar]

People who believe in what Brawl stands for are in direct opposition with everything that Melee is about. I think that definitely leads to an interesting problem. Brawl players got into the game casually since there's no other way to get into it IMO. After beating fellow casuals who prob have a name in the community, they look further into it.

Good/notable Melee players have at one point been disgraced and demoralized by an incredible player at some point or another and did not give up. They had the dedication to the game to say "I'm gonna get that good," and they did.

 

[CT Chia]

Good/notable Melee players have at one point been disgraced and demoralized by an incredible player at some point or another and did not give up. They had the dedication to the game to say "I'm gonna get that good," and they did.

qft

for real. like m2k used to blow at the game lol, now look at him. iv also come across that feeling plenty of times feeling terrible but eventually not giving up and i get better.

though i didnt read the entire thread, its possible for someone to stand for brawl and not be in opposition of melee. i just like brawl cause i think its fun and the type of strategy required to get good is completely different from that in melee, its a nice change of pace

 

[Beat]

I play Brawl against other human beings MAYBE once every 10 days or so. I haven't played alone in about a month.

I'm ranked 10th in PA.

I miss getting ***** at Melee by serious players, and the fire that made me want to get better at it.

I think one thing that Melee should invest in would be some sort of email/smashboards notification system. You could pick to subscribe to a specific region, and every 2 weeks or so your email is sent a message listing tournament dates for your region (I'm PA, so I'd like PA/NJ mostly) along with links to their threads.

I know there's already a thread with the listings, but it's based on being bumped and things of the like. Maybe it'd help bring back the lazier players such as myself.

I dunno, just tryin'a help the better game.

 

[Vyse]

Well, I've been trying to work with Kirby King (When I say work, I mean talked briefly, then I put forward a proposal via PM a week ago) towards starting something like a Smashboards E-newsletter that would automatically get emailed to people on a mailing list.

Included in such a publication would be a page's worth of tournament listings.

I hope Kirby King gets back to me about it soon, he said he thought it was a nice idea : /

 

[CT Chia]

I play Brawl against other human beings MAYBE once every 10 days or so. I haven't played alone in about a month.

I'm ranked 10th in PA.

You should not flaunt your ranking around like this. It's cool that you made it on, but you shouldn't let it get to your head or think its crazy that your ranked in a state when you don't play often. You're lucky you made it on there, you didn't attend many tournies, and you didn't do THAT great as a whole. It just so happens that PA is incredibly inactive as a whole.

 

[Beat]

You should not flaunt your ranking around like this. It's cool that you made it on, but you shouldn't let it get to your head or think its crazy that your ranked in a state when you don't play often. You're lucky you made it on there, you didn't attend many tournies, and you didn't do THAT great as a whole. It just so happens that PA is incredibly inactive as a whole.

I'm sorry that I didn't attend many tournaments and that I didn't do well? And I do think it's a bit nuts I made the rankings. I'm glad, though.

PM me this stuff next time or something. I hate it when threads turn into squabbles.

Anyhoosiers...

I'm glad to hear about the possible tournament mailing lists. Honestly, I miss Melee, but I dun really look for tournaments in either game. Scar usually told me about Melee stuff and Cless or Chibo do it for me for Brawl... I'm lazy. I figure a lot of okay to decent Melee players fell off the planet after Brawl outta laziness, so we need a fire lit under our respective *****.

 

[Foxy]

I'm really liking this newsletter/notification idea... it's of the kind of advancement we need to bring the Melee scene back up a little bit.

I think the first step towards better Melee tournaments would be to simply find a way to provide better turnouts. An obvious solution is to have better publicity, and any system would probably be better than the word-of-mouth or shuffle-through-the-recycle-bins thing that goes on now.

Obviously searching for tournaments isn't too horrible, but it's not very organized and findings can be misleading. I think any kind of organized listing or notification would help TO's with exposure/attendance and get more people actively interested in current tournaments.

 

[Beat]

Raffle ****? Even scrubs would love to be able to win SOMETHING. And don't make your chance of winning relevant to your placement in the venue. Toss in a Mario shirt or some **** and take 15 bucks out of the winnings (if it's a BIG venue where 15 bucks won't be missed)?

Who knows. I don't.

 

[Cinder]

That's actually not a bad idea, Beat...hrm, I should start jotting this stuff down for my Melee-fest ^___^...so far, I've got a raffle and a rave...

Speaking of which, I need EC's support in this =D...

 

[CT Chia]

i really like the mailing list idea. perhaps il start one for nj/pa seeing as i always know every single tourney thats goin on around here haha

 

[Dark_Crono]

The night is darkest just before the dawn. And I promise you, the dawn is coming. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178903

 

[Foxy]

The night is darkest just before the dawn. And I promise you, the dawn is coming. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178903

One day, Brawl will have to answer for the traditions it's broken - but to us, not to Melee.

NO MORE DEAD MELEE

/darkknight

 

[Vyse]

Well if you guys want some insight into what it would look like if Kirby King is willing to run with the idea:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190998

It will look like it does in there, except American orientated, and a bit more professionally laid out ((Don't kill me CAOTIC)).

Covering these areas:

* Information about upcoming Major American and International Tournaments
* Roundups on Major Tournaments that have transpired recently
* Information pertaining to happenings in different regions of America
* World News - Information pertaining to happenings in other continents
* Interviews with influential players and members of the smash community
* Articles relating to important issues of and about the Smash games
* Smashboards - The latest news and updates related to this website
* Tournament listings (A page for one line advertisements, divided into regions).

((Of course, this is all very hush hush))

 

[Foxy]

Well if you guys want some insight into what it would look like if Kirby King is willing to run with the idea:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190998

It will look like it does in there, except American orientated, and a bit more professionally laid out ((Don't kill me CAOTIC)).

Covering these areas:

* Information about upcoming Major American and International Tournaments
* Roundups on Major Tournaments that have transpired recently
* Information pertaining to happenings in different regions of America
* World News - Information pertaining to happenings in other continents
* Interviews with influential players and members of the smash community
* Articles relating to important issues of and about the Smash games
* Smashboards - The latest news and updates related to this website
* Tournament listings (A page for one line advertisements, divided into regions).

((Of course, this is all very hush hush))

Sounds excellent, would be a big hit if it happens.

However I think that before anyone puts a ton of effort into a whole newsletter/e-zine style project, a good idea should be discussed pertaining to tournament advertisement/information solely.

I love all the ideas here but I think that a lot of the stuff is extraneous and professional and doesn't necessarily need to be done first.

 

[GofG]

Maybe MLG will stop sucking and start hosting Melee.

Wouldn't it be funny if they re-picked up melee for their pro circuit and completely ignored brawl?

 

[San Diego Reaper]

The best thing for the smash community where everyone wins, is for nintendo to create another game in the series. Super Smash Brothers Melee 2! Include all the things we love about melee, maybe better graphics and a couple new characters and stages. The hyped up noobs and beginners would pick it up, and the long-veterans could enjoy the game to. This would seriously be the best for the community.

But if that doesnt happen, I agree that melee/brawl tournies are the best. Get people to come using brawl, then let them see how awesome melee is when they get there.

 

[SqueakyMetal]

The best thing for the smash community where everyone wins, is for nintendo to create another game in the series. Super Smash Brothers Melee 2! Include all the things we love about melee, maybe better graphics and a couple new characters and stages. The hyped up noobs and beginners would pick it up, and the long-veterans could enjoy the game to. This would seriously be the best for the community.

But if that doesnt happen, I agree that melee/brawl tournies are the best. Get people to come using brawl, then let them see how awesome melee is when they get there.

I agree completely. When brawl came out, my friends and I were hoping they would release a competitive version, lol.

As for the double game tournament idea, I've been trying to organize one at my high school for some time now, and i seem to have lost the thread to the basic tournament rules for melee. can any1 add a link to their reply?

I first got melee a couple years after it came out, and I was content playing lvl 9 coms for years. When I found out about advanced techniqes about a year ago, I became completely obsessed with getting better. I could play all day and loose every match to you guys and be happier than ever. Unfortunatly, brawl epic failed, and tournaments are hard to find now.

I dont want to stop playing this awesome game right after I started
I have the feeling of just barely missing the most awesome thing to happen in the universe