Melee Top Tiers Should Be Changed To PAL Specifications

[Fortress]

People would rage like hell if a spacie received a direct buff.

Who gives a ****. Not like it'd happen anyway, so I'd love to theorize on it. Falco's barely top-8 in this game, anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. In a game where everybody can recover (somewhat) easily, Falco got the ****.

Why not talk about cool **** with this character? It's bad to talk about it because 'oh my god, he's been like this for 13 years now, let's keep him **** off-stage out of tradition of keeping him **** off-stage'. Why not talk about balancing some things out to make his overall game more effective? Theorycraft is fun, too.

 

[shairn]

Why would Falco need to be made more effective?
As you pointed out, he's at least top 8. You don't buff the best characters in the game, usually.

 

[Zujx]

I don't think its necessary in this game.
I see where your coming from but, this isn't melee anymore they're are some solid match ups vs. the melee top tiers in this game considering everyone was buffed basically besides them who received slight nerfs.

 

[Fortress]

Why would Falco need to be made more effective?
As you pointed out, he's at least top 8. You don't buff the best characters in the game, usually.

I'm saying to take away certain things to add new ones. Not to just add new ones. Weaken the strength of some attacks to compensate for new recovery techniques.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Doesn't sound like a good trade.

 

[Fortress]

Doesn't sound like a good trade.

Happened with Ike, didn't it?

 

[Phan7om]

Leave the top tiers the same. Buff everyone else to compete with them.

 

[I/O]

I'm saying to take away certain things to add new ones. Not to just add new ones. Weaken the strength of some attacks to compensate for new recovery techniques.

The best thing about Project M (to me, at least) is the large, diverse cast of characters. You're suggesting we make Falco's recovery better to make it more in-line with other fighters, and nerf other aspects of his game, right? Then would it be a good idea to also make slow, strong characters faster and weaker? Or to give all characters projectiles so that they can deal with the other projectile-heavy characters?

Every character has strengths and weaknesses. If you don't like Falco's recovery, nobody's forcing you to play as him. Continue to play as your own favorite characters, and let the people who enjoy Falco's playstyle deal with his recovery problems on their own.

 

[GP&B]

Happened with Ike, didn't it?

Not... really? His recovery got nerfed (>B limited to 2 walljumps, Aether armor is now only on the jump part) and had tilt IASAs nerfed as well. He got a Roy-like hilt-tipper system which doesn't necessarily constitute for a buff, but really adds to the way his moves can be used at least. Regardless, I don't think it's the right example.

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm saying to take away certain things to add new ones. Not to just add new ones. Weaken the strength of some attacks to compensate for new recovery techniques.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

 

[trash?]

I've still never been given a good answer from anyone involved in characters changes as to why space animals are allowed to be as close to a 1:1 conversion to NTSC as possible, whereas sheik, a character that is universally considered worse than the spacies in the NTSC version gets nerfed to PAL

I know the answer actually is "because people coming from melee might moan too hard, and there's more spacie players than sheik players" but I'd still like official explanation on that

 

[Joe73191]

melee top tiers were already nerfed way too much and other characters got buffs that make melee top tiers look like pichu, so no. please just stop. no more nerfs, honestly if the pmbr keeps nerfing stuff it will make me not want want to play PM.

 

[Star ☆]

While I don't have any direct opinion on PAL changes I think Jigglypuff didn't make the transition well as the new matchups are too difficult for her. She is the only melee top tier that needs a change. Perhaps a new up B?

 

[shairn]

I've still never been given a good answer from anyone involved in characters changes as to why space animals are allowed to be as close to a 1:1 conversion to NTSC as possible, whereas sheik, a character that is universally considered worse than the spacies in the NTSC version gets nerfed to PAL

I know the answer actually is "because people coming from melee might moan too hard, and there's more spacie players than sheik players" but I'd still like official explanation on that

Sheik has better matchups against the rest of the cast than the spacies do in Melee. She's lower tier simply because the spacies have the advantage over her, otherwise she's the main reason 80% of the melee cast is useless.

 

[ECHOnce]

EDIT: Greninja'ed lol

I've still never been given a good answer from anyone involved in characters changes as to why space animals are allowed to be as close to a 1:1 conversion to NTSC as possible, whereas sheik, a character that is universally considered worse than the spacies in the NTSC version gets nerfed to PAL

I know the answer actually is "because people coming from melee might moan too hard, and there's more spacie players than sheik players" but I'd still like official explanation on that

Again, it isn't Fox or Falco that renders them unviable. It was Sheik who rendered them unviable. You don't see those kinda of characters now because of how Sheik created the stigma of them being useless. These lower character might still not beat Fox and Falco but they certainly don't get destroyed by them like Sheik did, and this is because, just like every other character in the game, they can still punish the spacies hard. However they aren't played now because they aren't popular, this is because of Sheik, and/or their players suck.

 

[trash?]

but then why nerf her, if the idea with space animals are that we should deal with it and make characters good enough to deal with them? why does that only apply to them, and not sheik, when dealing with lasers/one-frame pressure tools and dealing with her grabs have similar problems?

and for that matter, why nerf a lot of the characters PMBR likes to nerf? why nerf ivysaur if she's not as good or polarizing? why nerf sonic, or ike, or wario, or lucario?

in other words: why is the PMBR's balancing philosophy so inconsistent to favor a few characters? again, I know the answer, but you know, hypothetically.

 

[shairn]

but then why nerf her, if the idea with space animals are that we should deal with it and make characters good enough to deal with them? why does that only apply to them, and not sheik, when dealing with lasers and dealing with her grabs have similar problems?

and for that matter, why nerf a lot of the characters PMBR likes to nerf? why nerf ivysaur if she's not as good? why nerf sonic, or ike, or wario, or lucario?

in other words: why is the PMBR's balancing philosophy so inconsistent to favor a few characters?

The problem with spacies is much more ingrained in their designs than it was with Sheik - remove her dthrow, and suddenly 20 characters become viable. The spacies are a combination of things that make them incredible and it's more difficult to balance things out because of it.

I think the PMBR are holding out on spacies specifically because it's such an important issue. You can't go about it halfway - it has to be done in a way that won't ruin the 13 years of metagame, still makes them good characters and still feels like them. I'm sure they're also writing a book detailing the why and how of every single change they'll apply to them when they do get some attention.

 

[Star ☆]

and for that matter, why nerf a lot of the characters PMBR likes to nerf? why nerf ivysaur if she's not as good? why nerf sonic, or ike, or wario, or lucario?

in other words: why is the PMBR's balancing philosophy so inconsistent to favor a few characters? again, I know the answer, but you know, hypothetically.

I don't really know about Ike, Wario or Lucario but Ivysaur and Sonic were not nerfed simply because they were great but because their playstyle was too rewarding for little effort and very unnatural. Sonic had complete control of the entire match all the time due to down b cancels and Ivysaur's razor leaf was super fast and you could have multiple out at once. Both characters dictated the turn of the match at ALL TIMES unlike spacies can in certain matchups.

It's about irregular playstyles, however like I said I don't really know much about Wario/Lucario/Ike's nerfing.

 

[trash?]

PMBR's wanting to change spacies, admittedly, is completely different depending on who in the PMBR you ask. SB is the one who made what I lovingly refer to as "the godpost" that kind of just trashed the idea that they were fine, whereas oro swears to death that they need no changes, IIRC.

I can see falco being an issue with PAL -- much as I'm not a fan, his pillar dair being below-average in PAL makes for a mighty big change that affects so much of hoe people play him -- but fox seems pretty painless. PAL fox is still fantastic, and one of the guaranteed best in the game. after all, you don't get one of the best fox players in melee coming from europe without him being at least alright.

ike's playstyle was heavily overrated in 2.1. not to say he isn't far better designed now, but he had counters and people complained enough. lucario kind of got shot in the foot after 2.1 until recently, and wario... you know, I genuinely don't know what was with the wario nerfs. I'm pretty sure it was just like one or two people who thought he was S-tier, everyone else went for A-tier or below.

 

[mimgrim]

For the record. I never actually said Spacies should not be nerfed. I was simply pointing out an error about Melee's metagame.

 

[Fortress]

I've still never been given a good answer from anyone involved in characters changes as to why space animals are allowed to be as close to a 1:1 conversion to NTSC as possible, whereas sheik, a character that is universally considered worse than the spacies in the NTSC version gets nerfed to PAL

I know the answer actually is "because people coming from melee might moan too hard, and there's more spacie players than sheik players" but I'd still like official explanation on that

Who knows, there is no good one that I've heard. I just try to be the one person to step up, say, "wouldn't this be neat", and get told "no bcuz Melee". I'm not coming in mentioning nerfs or anything, I'm mentioning trading off something like kill power on Falco's F-Smash, D-Tilt, and B-air in exchange for a better recovery game in the form of a walljumpable side-B. ****ty idea probably, but I felt like tossing something out since everybody else is afraid they'll be crucified if they do.

I'm not that afraid to come out and suggest my own ideas though, put me up at the stake for merely talking about stuff for some sacred character, whatever, act close-minded.

 

[ECHOnce]

EDIT: I cropped a bit of your post off (from my quote) because you added some stuff on with an edit before my post went through, and I didn't really feel that what I said applied to everything.

Who knows, there is no good one that I've heard. I just try to be the one person to step up, say, "wouldn't this be neat", and get told "no bcuz Melee".

Why would the reasons provided above not suffice? And if such are grouped up along with them many others as vague "because melee" answers, why? I wouldn't personally consider them to be. In fact, the explanations above supported a major change from NTSC Melee.

 

[Fortress]

EDIT: I cropped a bit of your post off (from my quote) because you added some stuff on with an edit before my post went through, and I didn't really feel that what I said applied to everything.

Why would the reasons provided above not suffice? And if such are grouped up along with them many others as vague "because melee" answers, why? I wouldn't personally consider them to be. In fact, the explanations above supported a major change from NTSC Melee.

I'm not saying they don't, I'm just saying that it upsets me that anybody who suggests anything gets crucified on the spot for suggesting something so heretical, and that it's so easy to jump on the "don't change anything out of tradition" bandwagon.

 

[Rᴏb]

Who knows, there is no good one that I've heard. I just try to be the one person to step up, say, "wouldn't this be neat", and get told "no bcuz Melee". I'm not coming in mentioning nerfs or anything, I'm mentioning trading off something like kill power on Falco's F-Smash, D-Tilt, and B-air in exchange for a better recovery game in the form of a walljumpable side-B. ****ty idea probably, but I felt like tossing something out since everybody else is afraid they'll be crucified if they do.

I'm not that afraid to come out and suggest my own ideas though, put me up at the stake for merely talking about stuff for some sacred character, whatever, act close-minded.

"Lets change a character that doesn't need changes because... er... because!
Who cares what the people who main Falco think. Who cares that the whole point of Falco being in PM was to revive his melee playstyle. Who cares about diviersity, let's just make every character have similar strengths and weaknesses."

Just as bad as saying because melee.
Change for the sake of change is stupid.
I'm not trying to say Falco should never be touched, my point is there should actually be reasons for doing so. "Why not" isn't a reason, it's pretty much admitting that you have no reason.

I'm not saying they don't, I'm just saying that it upsets me that anybody who suggests anything gets crucified on the spot for suggesting something so heretical, and that it's so easy to jump on the "don't change anything out of tradition" bandwagon.

This is so silly. How do you think change ever occurs in PM?

 

[NisforSmash]

While I don't have any direct opinion on PAL changes I think Jigglypuff didn't make the transition well as the new matchups are too difficult for her. She is the only melee top tier that needs a change. Perhaps a new up B?

Give her a little more power on her rest and an extra jump could work. Give sing more range or make it come out almost instantaneously and make it so you can stop up special 1/3 of the way through or 2/3 of the way through and must press b again if you want to continue it. So like a 3 part move kinda like marth's side b. That's just what i would do though.

melee top tiers were already nerfed way too much and other characters got buffs that make melee top tiers look like pichu, so no. please just stop. no more nerfs, honestly if the pmbr keeps nerfing stuff it will make me not want want to play PM.

i disagree. Melee top tiers are fine. Every other character just has a lot more unknown options which makes their fully realized options look old and outdated. I would be all for allowing falco to jump out of his side b against a wall. The only thing it really does is further emphasizes his incredible stage control/edge guarding and gives his bad recovery one more option without directly buffing it. Unfortunately he might not need it so...

You're suggesting we make Falco's recovery better to make it more in-line with other fighters, and nerf other aspects of his game, right?.

Actually he was just suggesting that falco get another recovery option. Not directly a buff but something that would further polarize his matchups depending on stage choice. I see nothing wrong with this.

Leave the top tiers the same. Buff everyone else to compete with them.

That sounds like a decision the brawl minus team would make. Nerfs are necessary when one or a few select characters clearly out"shine" the rest. In melee fox and falco fit that description. In PM they've lost the zest in what made them great because every one else has gained what made them great: options. The better decision is the one they're doing right now. Leave fox and falco the same for now to see how they develop against the rest of the cast.

@ trash? I don't see the pmbr just favoring fox and falco just because melee. The beauty in melee fox and falco was the sheer amount of options they had to deal with just about everything. The proper design choice would be to put everybody in the same playing field as either melee fox and falco or the rest of the cast. What i mean by this is that if they're going to make everyone bad that's fine but they'll have to take away from what made fox and falco so good which would truly make pm more like melee 2. The other option is to bring everyone up to melee fox and falco's level which is what they're pursuing. The problem is that recreating a balanced fox and falco version of the rest of the cast is darn near impossible. You give them the same number of options you get 2.1 ike or 2.5 lucario/sonic i think it was. Too little options and fox and falco go through them like canon fodder. I guess i see the main problem being that fox and falco have a lot of options and just about none of them are inherently unfavorable. You can do just about anything with them and you'll be emulating some smash pro somewhere.

/rant. I didn't direct this at you because i'm picking on you specifically. I just thought it was somewhat relevant to what you were saying.

Carry on all.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Jigglypuff, tho. Why aren't we actually talking about this? Every thread that starts, "no, change can't because Melee". Puff needs some kind of new... thing. Can we all just think about **** objectively for twelve seconds? Sit back and actually think about this kind of thing? Why can't Falco have a wall-jump out of side-B? It's still got pretty short distance overall, so, why not?

#jumpcancellableNeutralB

This. Though I think if you give Falco the wall jump and not Fox, who are both wall jump characters, it may seem inconsistent with just the general game design. But giving Fox a wall jump out of side b is pretty busted lmao. Unless you make Fox's up b PAL distance, then maaaaaaaaybe.


Also, there is no objectively sound reason that any human being can give on Puff remaining the exact same as her Melee counterpart in this game. She is definitely considered as one of the worst characters in this game and she's not received any buff or tweek from her Melee version whatsoever. A large majority of the P:M cast have huge disjointed moves/projectiles that outright beat Puff's hitboxes, movement options that make it hard for Jiggs to catch them, busted recoveries that make it almost impossible for Puff to reliably edgeguard, and weird weights that prevent true combos into rest. Almost everything that Puff has to do in this game has to come from multiple reads or running the timer while other buffed characters get massive hitboxes and/or free, guaranteed, hand-me-down set-ups and combos from the PMBR.

I doubt that the PMBR would release anything explaining the cause of this, which forces people to speculate. But if there is anything to be absolutely certan about when speculating on this topic, it's that if Puff remains exactly the same as Melee in the next installment of P:M, then the only logical conclusion the fans can make without any official statement from the PMBR is that Puff was not changed....


Becuz Melee...


In a game that aims to balance the cast but intentionally leaves a character to fend for themselves with no supposed intent on making her better, what other conlusion can be made?

This is the time where someone from the PMBR makes a statement to clarify Puff's position in the game or link me to somewhere where this topic was already discussed or continue to remain in the dark about Puff... becuz Melee...

 

[Fortress]

"Lets change a character that doesn't need changes because... er... because!
Who cares what the people who main Falco think. Who cares that the whole point of Falco being in PM was to revive his melee playstyle. Who cares about diviersity, let's just make every character have similar strengths and weaknesses."

Just as bad as saying because melee.
Change for the sake of change is stupid.
I'm not trying to say Falco should never be touched, my point is there should actually be reasons for doing so. "Why not" isn't a reason, it's pretty much admitting that you have no reason.

This is so silly. How do you think change ever occurs in PM?

My reason is that his recovery is garbage-tier, and that he could have it buffed by compensating for decreased power in a few ground attacks. It's like you don't even read, or something.

 

[GeZ]

I don't think Falco/ Fox need changes. They're tough but as the metagame develops they get more and more surmountable because players lock down their punish game. They already got the biggest nerf possible which is just their running a little less tight. Everything being a bit less oiled. Not that they feel clunky but that there's actual space in their pressure now. I do think that it was a really bunk decision to change Shiek's grabs, and Puff does need something. Besides that I don't think the PMBR is favoring any character too much when balancing. The tiers have shuffled and re-shuffled during most patches and most of the cast stands on reasonably even ground. I just want to see characters with very low prospects buffed up so that they exist on the competitive radar, and have some melee characters brought back up to speed, that's all.

 

[Fortress]

If I need to point it out, I don't think Fox/Falco/Peppy need changes, Falco was just the most apparent candidate for any kind of buff-for-nerf exchange from the Melee top-tiers that popped into my mind. Puff is my absolute number one choice for a character that needs some kind of overhaul to make her type of game viable in PM. Only a handful of players get away with it nowadays, and they are few and far between far as I'm aware.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Don't feel like quoting, but whoever said sheik made low tiers/mid tiers unviable in melee, that's just flat wrong. Low tiers being shitty are what made them unviable. Sheik being an apparent gate keeper to top tier is the result of her matchup with characters above her and below her being positive and negative respectively, not because she actually stops other characters from having top tier status. If sheik didn't exist, these characters would not perform that much better in tournaments (except by the domino effect of removing a character above them from the game), because their matchups with the 3 most popular characters in the game (fox falco marth) are each more important in terms of their viability and are still just as bad or almost as bad as their matchups with sheik. Sheik's dthrow adjustments also don't do anything to improve more characters chances at being good in PM. The changes were made because Sheik's melee dthrow CGing such a huge portion of the cast is just bad game design, period.



Also lol @ whoever said puff should get a new up-b, that character does not need recovery buffs, that won't help her in any significant way. If any changes were to be made to up-b, it should be that she has an effect on aerial opponents, and possibly that sing will end in between any of the three hitboxes if the B-button isn't pressed for each one, giving her a three-hit mix-up akin to Link's fsmash mix-up.

 

[Bleck]

people in this thread pretending like Falco's down-air having a few less spikeframes is the end of the world

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I agree, except for a few mids / high-mids where they are doing just OK except for Sheik, like Pika and maybe Falcon (although they also have other rough MUs)

 

[Fortress]

people in this thread pretending like Falco's down-air having a few less spikeframes is the end of the world

#realtalk

 

[Rᴏb]

My reason is that his recovery is garbage-tier, and that he could have it buffed by compensating for decreased power in a few ground attacks. It's like you don't even read, or something.

See, I understand the trade-off you're proposing. I was asking why it was needed... But you just went onto say that it wasn't... So I guess it ends there haha.

 

[TreK]

Ivysaur's razor leaf was super fast and you could have multiple out at once.

Just being nitpicky, but you could never have several razor leaves at once. The differences between 2.6 RL and 3.0 RL are as follow :
-The leaf slowly decelerates instead of having a constant speed
-Increased startup and cooldown
-The game detects if there is a leaf when you press B, instead of when the new projectile should appear. In both versions, if there's a leaf when the game checks, the new one doesn't appear.

In 2.6 she could have one razor leaf out at all times, by starting to toss the next one before the previous one has disappeared. In 3.0+ there is a minimum of 18 frames between the disappearance of the previous razor leaf and the appearance of the new one, because of the startup of the move. For the record, 18 frames is equivalent to a Fox doing one shffl.
It basically makes it so Ivysaur doesn't end the neutral game every time she presses side B.

Sorry for being out of topic. Nitpicking is my business bro.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Just being nitpicky, but you could never have several razor leaves at once. The differences between 2.6 RL and 3.0 RL are as follow :
-The leaf slowly decelerates instead of having a constant speed
-Increased startup and cooldown
-The game detects if there is a leaf when you press B, instead of when the new projectile should appear. In both versions, if there's a leaf when the game checks, the new one doesn't appear.

In 2.6 she could have one razor leaf out at all times, by starting to toss the next one before the previous one has disappeared. In 3.0+ there is a minimum of 18 frames between the disappearance of the previous razor leaf and the appearance of the new one, because of the startup of the move. For the record, 18 frames is equivalent to a Fox doing one shffl.
It basically makes it so Ivysaur doesn't end the neutral game every time she presses side B.

Sorry for being out of topic. Nitpicking is my business bro.

lmao, you obviously never played Ivysaur before 2.6 (She came out in 2.5). And if you did, you were not very aware of her attributes as a character.

Changelog from 2.5b to 2.6b for Ivysaur: "-Forward B animation is faster all around; Razor Leaf stays out longer, no longer decelerates over time, but is limited to one leaf on-screen at a time; can now be fastfalled"

If razor leaf had always been one leaf on screen at a time, why would the PMBR limit razor leaf from one leaf to..... one?....

Probably because you used to have more than one out on the field is my guess.

Having multiple razor leaves out on the field was a huge complaint about Ivysaur and had been adjusted in later version.

Just do a tiny bit more fact checking next time before correcting someone. Just a smudge more. It goes a long way.

Edit: Also, I guess nitpicking is my business, too. lololol

 

[trash?]

I would also recommend a tiny bit more of a bat swung into your jaw for your obnoxious passive-aggressiveness, but much like your obnoxious passive-aggressiveness, trying to sugarcoat it in nicer-sounding language probably doesn't help

 

[GeZ]

Jesus christ, no one was even being that pissy Canon. Chill.

 

[trash?]

no patience for that kind of person. if you want a conversation, a good tip is to stop talking to everyone else as if they are small children and not grown-ass men

 

[GeZ]

Fair ish policy. Everyone should mellow out a bit in any case.