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Melee Top Tiers Should Be Changed To PAL Specifications

j-slo-3

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The Melee top tiers especially Fox and Falco, should IMO definitely be changed at least to some extent in PM to how they were in the PAL version of melee. Of course all the top tier melee mains would complain, but you should take into account that even in the PAL tier list all the NTSC high tier are still high tier, they just are no longer broken. Another good point to note is that the PAL version of Melee was the final version of Melee that Nintendo released, this being said it was the way that Nintendo wanted Melee to be, and should really IMO be the tournament standard, but probably will never happen. I believe the PMBR already changed some things to reflect PAL such as Sheiks' down throw and Falcons' easier gentlemen, so why not make changes to the other top tiers that I, and I am sure a lot of other people feel need some nerfs. What do you all think?

PAL differences
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_regional_version_differences_(SSBM)
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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Because that will never happen. People have asked for it, and look what happened? None of it. Thread should be locked soon.
 

j-slo-3

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Wth. Are you trying to start another flame thread? This has been answered before. Besides they already have had moderate nerfs.
No I am just voicing my opinion on a social thread which is what I though was the point of a social thread. Yea they did get a few nerfs, but in a lot of peoples opinion they are still pretty broken. Falco for example actually got some buffs too. He can DACUS, has his brawl jab, and can gatling combo.
 
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j-slo-3

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Because that will never happen. People have asked for it, and look what happened? None of it. Thread should be locked soon.
Doesn't mean it Can't happen. PM is a game for the community if the community wants something bad enough the PMBR would likely listen
 

Mr.Random

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No I am just voicing my opinion on a social thread which is what I though was the point of a social thread. Yea they did get a few nerfs, but in a lot of peoples opinion they are still pretty broken. Falco for example actually got some buffs too. He can DACUS, has his brawl jab, and can gatling combo.
No more nerfs. Just more buffs. For other characters. How about this? No? Anyone? :(
 

ECHOnce

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People don't like things being taken away. They like things to stay the same or get better; rather than nerf the top tiers, PMBR has balanced the cast by buffing the low tiers. It's basic psychology; nerfs just aren't that fly. And it sort of worked. Idk why you would think that they're still broken in PM, because they're not. Some pros don't even consider spacies top tier in PM anymore; just high tier.

But on that note, Sheik is prob one of the few top tiers nerfed in this aspect; they gave her PAL D-throw because NTSC D-throw chain-grabbed most of the roster to heck. Although that was only the case because they tried to limit/reduce the effectiveness of chain-grabs in PM universally across all the characters.
 
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j-slo-3

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People don't like things being taken away. They like things to stay the same or get better; rather than nerf the top tiers, PMBR has balanced the cast by buffing the low tiers. It's basic psychology; nerfs just aren't that fly. And it sort of worked. Idk why you would think that they're still broken in PM, because they're not. Some pros don't even consider spacies top tier in PM anymore; just high tier.

But on that note, Sheik is prob one of the few top tiers nerfed in this aspect; they gave her PAL D-throw because NTSC D-throw chain-grabbed most of the roster to heck. Although that was only the case because they tried to limit/reduce the effectiveness of chain-grabs in PM universally across all the characters.
No more nerfs. Just more buffs. For other characters. How about this? No? Anyone? :(
idk I just feel like if you try to make a game balanced by making every character OP instead of applying some necessary nerfs here and there it makes it really hard, and you get what has happened in past updates when characters were ridiculous like Ike.
 

j-slo-3

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People don't like things being taken away. They like things to stay the same or get better; rather than nerf the top tiers, PMBR has balanced the cast by buffing the low tiers. It's basic psychology; nerfs just aren't that fly. And it sort of worked. Idk why you would think that they're still broken in PM, because they're not. Some pros don't even consider spacies top tier in PM anymore; just high tier.

But on that note, Sheik is prob one of the few top tiers nerfed in this aspect; they gave her PAL D-throw because NTSC D-throw chain-grabbed most of the roster to heck. Although that was only the case because they tried to limit/reduce the effectiveness of chain-grabs in PM universally across all the characters.
tier lists still say fox and falco are the best characters, and most of the pros who say that spacies aren't top tier anymore are old melee veterans who main spacies
 

T-Murder

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Should it be changed? Probably. Will it get changed? no. Us Americans want to play the game we've been playing for the last 13 years. I just feel it is a little late. Although i do feel this would give melee a sense of newness and give us a new frontier to conquer.
 

CORY

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if you say "just buff everyone" you get 2.1 ike, 2.1 lucario, 2.5(?) sonic, 2.6 ivysaur, etc... it sounds nice in theory, but then you'll end up having to either homogenize a lot of playstyles amongst characters or else you'll have to stupid stuff like "well, ganon doesn't have a good neutral game, so in exchange, he'll kill you at 20 with any aerial." /hyperbolebutstill
 

j-slo-3

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if you say "just buff everyone" you get 2.1 ike, 2.1 lucario, 2.5(?) sonic, 2.6 ivysaur, etc... it sounds nice in theory, but then you'll end up having to either homogenize a lot of playstyles amongst characters or else you'll have to stupid stuff like "well, ganon doesn't have a good neutral game, so in exchange, he'll kill you at 20 with any aerial." /hyperbolebutstill
Best reply I've gotten yet thank you lol. But yea that's were I was going that trying to balance by buffing everyone just sounds hard, so if the top tier is nerfed some, then there would have to be less buffing to make it balanced. And at least there would be some roots to base the nerfs off of since PAL was the final version of melee. And fox and falco were still top tier in PAL so it's not like the changes would make them bad by any means.
 
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deadjames

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Sheik is fine, she already has her PAL dthrow, and her uair doesn't need to be nerfed because she doesn't really have strong kill moves anyway, she revolves more around gimps. Marth is also fine, he's not even top tier in PM imo. Now bear with me guys because here's where my opinion is going to get weird. I do think Fox and Falco should get their PAL changes, but the hitbox on shine should also be removed (same for Wolf), and their lasers should only travel half the distance of FD.
 

j-slo-3

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Sheik is fine, she already has her PAL dthrow, and her uair doesn't need to be nerfed because she doesn't really have strong kill moves anyway, she revolves more around gimps. Marth is also fine, he's not even top tier in PM imo. Now bear with me guys because here's where my opinion is going to get weird. I do think Fox and Falco should get their PAL changes, but the hitbox on shine should also be removed (same for Wolf), and their lasers should only travel half the distance of FD.
I think that's a little radical the PAL changes combined with buffing other characters would do the job, and wolf is fine.
 

ECHOnce

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tier lists still say fox and falco are the best characters, and most of the pros who say that spacies aren't top tier anymore are old melee veterans who main spacies
if you say "just buff everyone" you get 2.1 ike, 2.1 lucario, 2.5(?) sonic, 2.6 ivysaur, etc... it sounds nice in theory, but then you'll end up having to either homogenize a lot of playstyles amongst characters or else you'll have to stupid stuff like "well, ganon doesn't have a good neutral game, so in exchange, he'll kill you at 20 with any aerial." /hyperbolebutstill
The CT tier list was made just a few months after PM 3.0 came out, and is disagreed upon by a good chunk of the community. Plus you have to remember that it's also based on how frequently players placed well with their mains; spacies are still up there only because people have developed their metagame that far and so many people play them. Given a few years, people of other mains may come close to that degree of know-how with their newer, changed characters. But several characters already have far more potential than spacies.

Even then, one of the biggest reasons why spacies were top tiers was because not many characters have an answer to all their tools; all characters after Jigglypuff on the tier list (maybe excluding Yoshi and Pika, now that we know what their tech is more capable of) were made unviable at top level play simply because they can't handle the spacies, and maybe a few of the other top tiers. In PM, there's several characters that can hard counter fast-fallers (and by extension spacies) now, if played correctly. They no longer have nearly as much control now that the cast has been buffed with tactics to counteract the spacies. They're just like everyone else now - some good MUs, some bad, but mostly even. They may have more good MUs than most right now, but that's just because they've had years to develop their Melee meta. Other chars just have to catch up.

So yeah...simply buffing the rest of the cast is a pretty significant nerf to them. Jigglypuff is another top tier that hugely suffered from universal buffs; stellar recoveries make her entire meta way less viable. Compared to the rest of the cast, she's not even all that viable in PM at all anymore, despite having 0 changes between the Melee --> PM transition herself. On that note, the frames for power-shielding being increased from 1 to 2 is a huge difference as well, and is a huge tank to Falco's laser game. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but it definitely changes too level play.

That's what I meant by buffing the cast. Obviously I don't just mean given buffs to the extent that they destroy any MU; their moveset/aspects of their playstyle should be improved just enough to deal with the MUs that that had hard times winning in previous games, and obviously against the others being buffed.
 

Celestis

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I would not want to fight against a weakened version of Fox or Falco. I would feel unsatisfied that I had to fight a nerfed version of those two and would be unhappy. I mean, there are plenty pf characters who fight on there level in PM, its not like they are hurting anything. I feel way more accomplished knowing I took down Fox at his full potential.
 

mimgrim

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Even then, one of the biggest reasons why spacies were top tiers was because not many characters have an answer to all their tools; all characters after Jigglypuff on the tier list (maybe excluding Yoshi and Pika, now that we know what their tech is more capable of) were made unviable at top level play simply because they can't handle the spacies, and maybe a few of the other top tiers.
I just want to point out that this is false. Many mid tier and low tier characters were rendered useless by Sheik. Not Fox and Falco.
 

Celestis

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Sheik is fine, she already has her PAL dthrow, and her uair doesn't need to be nerfed because she doesn't really have strong kill moves anyway, she revolves more around gimps. Marth is also fine, he's not even top tier in PM imo. Now bear with me guys because here's where my opinion is going to get weird. I do think Fox and Falco should get their PAL changes, but the hitbox on shine should also be removed (same for Wolf), and their lasers should only travel half the distance of FD.
Are you insane? That is not only nerfing them, but killing them completely. Do you not see how much Fox and Falco rely on their shine? The goal of this game is to bring everyone up to Fox/Falco's level, not bring them down the the low tier levels. That would be so uninteresting.
 

Garquille14

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if you want shine hitboxes removed then I can't trust anything you say. Those are some of the cooler things about the game and I hate playing as spacies.

although I don't mind if everyone is balanced around marth/sheik instead of spacies
 

ECHOnce

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I just want to point out that this is false. Many mid tier and low tier characters were rendered useless by Sheik. Not Fox and Falco.
Historically, that's true...back in the day when Sheik was god tier and all. But the MUs against spacies still render a good chunk of them unviable as well - just as much as the Sheik MU does. I would say they have even more of an influence than Sheik now, given how prevalent they are everywhere today.
 
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Celestis

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And this is why PM has buffed the mall to be viable. So there is no need to worry about any of that, This isn't Melee.
 

mimgrim

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Again, it isn't Fox or Falco that renders them unviable. It was Sheik who rendered them unviable. You don't see those kinda of characters now because of how Sheik created the stigma of them being useless. These lower character might still not beat Fox and Falco but they certainly don't get destroyed by them like Sheik did, and this is because, just like every other character in the game, they can still punish the spacies hard. However they aren't played now because they aren't popular, this is because of Sheik, and/or their players suck.
 

Bazkip

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On that note, the frames for power-shielding being increased from 1 to 2 is a huge difference as well, and is a huge tank to Falco's laser game. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but it definitely changes too level play.
Uh, it wasn't increased. It was a two frame window in Melee as well.
 
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deadjames

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Are you insane? That is not only nerfing them, but killing them completely. Do you not see how much Fox and Falco rely on their shine? The goal of this game is to bring everyone up to Fox/Falco's level, not bring them down the the low tier levels. That would be so uninteresting.
Why is that insane? I think it's insane that shine made it into the game at all. How is it in any way fair for a character to have an all-purpose move that comes out in one frame (and has invincibility in Melee). I mean sure Sonic, and G&W have one frame moves but they serve a specific purpose, and have obvious shortcomings. Shine can literally be used to escape pressure, apply safe pressure, start combos, extend combos, recover, and kill, and no character in the game has a better option against it than shield and roll away, why is that ok?
 

Chesstiger2612

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People don't like things being taken away. They like things to stay the same or get better; rather than nerf the top tiers, PMBR has balanced the cast by buffing the low tiers. It's basic psychology; nerfs just aren't that fly. And it sort of worked. Idk why you would think that they're still broken in PM, because they're not. Some pros don't even consider spacies top tier in PM anymore; just high tier.

But on that note, Sheik is prob one of the few top tiers nerfed in this aspect; they gave her PAL D-throw because NTSC D-throw chain-grabbed most of the roster to heck. Although that was only the case because they tried to limit/reduce the effectiveness of chain-grabs in PM universally across all the characters.
It isn't only psychology, also something for the gameplay. Lets imagine everyone was nerfed to Melee Pichu. No one could really combo, the game would have less interesting mechanics amd the strengthes defining the character would be that much worse that you could barely see them. All would have unsafe moves and would have to go for single jab mixups and just play like low tiers.
It is just funnier to play a game with awesome fighters than with fighters who are just bad at fighting.

Many Melee top tiers are still on the top (most Melee playders saying otherwise haven't really dealt with the game too much), but the differences have become too small that if you are a little bit better you have the bigger chance to win.
Also Sheik's throw angle is between NTSC (chaingrabs) and PAL (barely combos) so you get DI traps.
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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The golden rule; because melee.
The PMBR isn't even about drastic changes.
 

Celestis

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Why is that insane? I think it's insane that shine made it into the game at all. How is it in any way fair for a character to have an all-purpose move that comes out in one frame (and has invincibility in Melee). I mean sure Sonic, and G&W have one frame moves but they serve a specific purpose, and have obvious shortcomings. Shine can literally be used to escape pressure, apply safe pressure, start combos, extend combos, recover, and kill, and no character in the game has a better option against it than shield and roll away, why is that ok?
And why is it okay to want to break such a big part of those two's character. They would just drop so far down in usability. Lucas also has a similar ability with his Magnet. It might not allow pressure escaping, but applies to everything else you listed.
Why does Luigi have such a massive Wavedash, Why does Zelda have invincibility on her Neutral B. Talk about safty =/. Why does Bowser have so much super armor, Why Mario's cape, Ice Climber de-syncs, Pikachu.. The only move that can attack so far over his head for a KO. They might not be similar to Shine, but they are all traits these characters can abuse that none others on the roster can do. The Shine and its many tools just happens to be their thing.
 

deadjames

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Smh. That argument is pathetic. A broken mechanic shouldn't be allowed to stay in the game for the sake of making a character unique. Spacies have plenty of other unique things and plenty of other redeeming qualities. I'm confident they would be solid high tier characters without shine.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Smh. That argument is pathetic. A broken mechanic shouldn't be allowed to stay in the game for the sake of making a character unique. Spacies have plenty of other unique things and plenty of other redeeming qualities. I'm confident they would be solid high tier characters without shine.
No, the shine is everything they have. No aerial would be safe without it, their combo and edgeguard game would collapse, their OoS options would still be OK but not good enough to balance the huge risk that they get hurt more if they get hit because of their fallspeed. Opponents would be able to shield every aerial approach and maneuver in situations that are supersafe if there is no shine. Keep in mind the spacies' range isn't that great.
 

alex6309

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Sounds interesting, do you think any of the other melee vets should get some of their PAL changes too?

quote="ez.™, post: 17059139, member: 225273"]The golden rule; because melee.
The PMBR isn't even about drastic changes.[/quote]
Can you provide actual discussion instead of short flat full-on opinionated sentences?
 

ECHOnce

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Sounds interesting, do you think any of the other melee vets should get some of their PAL changes too?
As others have mentioned (some correcting me aha), Sheik's chaingrab was the biggest reason why most of the Melee cast was invalidated as unviable characters. It wasn't the spacies or other top tiers that were an issue. Most if not of the former low/mid-tier characters are perfectly capable of handling all of the top tiers now; the MUs may be somewhat disfavorable in some cases, but none are unwinnable or close to unwinnable like several of the MUs in Melee. Further nerfs to top tiers are unnecessary; nerfs should only be implemented in PM from this point on if a previous buff was found to give too much leeway for abuse.

Among the few significant PAL changes to other top tiers that I can come up with off the top of my head are Fox's shorter, weaker, and smaller Up-B (which already has plenty of drawbacks and is fine as it is), Falco's messed up D-air spike (another essential to the character), Marth's D-air as a meteor smash instead of spike.
 

alex6309

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As others have mentioned (some correcting me aha), Sheik's chaingrab was the biggest reason why most of the Melee cast was invalidated as unviable characters. It wasn't the spacies or other top tiers that were an issue. Most if not of the former low/mid-tier characters are perfectly capable of handling all of the top tiers now; the MUs may be somewhat disfavorable in some cases, but none are unwinnable or close to unwinnable like several of the MUs in Melee. Further nerfs to top tiers are unnecessary; nerfs should only be implemented in PM from this point on if a previous buff was found to give too much leeway for abuse.

Among the few significant PAL changes to other top tiers that I can come up with off the top of my head are Fox's shorter, weaker, and smaller Up-B (which already has plenty of drawbacks and is fine as it is), Falco's messed up D-air spike (another essential to the character), Marth's D-air as a meteor smash instead of spike.
I wasn't talking specifically about the top tiers and I have read the thread, thank you very much. I was asking the OP if they believe some of the buffs or changes that the lower tier characters have should be implemented
 

ECHOnce

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I wasn't talking specifically about the top tiers and I have read the thread, thank you very much. I was asking the OP if they believe some of the buffs or changes that the lower tier characters have should be implemented
Sorry if I came off as rude, I was just trying to explain myself in detail and credit others for what they said; as you prob saw, I sort of argued against Sheik being a big reason for the current tiers, so it seemed weird to suddenly adopt their standpoint on it without acknowledgment aha.

In what manner would you suggest the buffs/changes that lower tier characters have be implemented to higher tiers so that they aren't made OP or too different in playstyle?
 
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Fortress

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Jigglypuff, tho. Why aren't we actually talking about this? Every thread that starts, "no, change can't because Melee". Puff needs some kind of new... thing. Can we all just think about **** objectively for twelve seconds? Sit back and actually think about this kind of thing? Why can't Falco have a wall-jump out of side-B? It's still got pretty short distance overall, so, why not?

#jumpcancellableNeutralB
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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People would rage like hell if a spacie received a direct buff.
 
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