Melee Techniques Being Left out of Brawl

[FalconPunch]

It needed to be done. . . . . .

FALCON PUNCH!

You called?

 

[Kryptonite X]

If you're still talking about Melee (which I don't think you are because you're describing the slower characters like they would be godly with wavedashing and l-canceling) I think it is you who doesn't understand.

Jigglypuff IS INNATELY BETTER THAN BOWSER. SHE IS INNATELY MORE POWERFUL, BECAUSE SHE IS INNATELY ABLE TO DO DAMAGE AND KILL OPPONENTS BETTER THAN BOWSER. You give them both the ability to wavedash and l-cancel, and suddenly Bowser stands more of a chance than he did before. THAT MEANS THE GAME IS MORE BALANCED WITH THESE TECHNIQUES. The only unbalance you speak of is the unbalance between players that use it and players that don't use it, and that unbalance only exists because the players that don't use it choose not to use it, or are incapable of learning to use it.

It doesn't make the game more balanced because wavedashing is not equal for every character. It's a pretty stupid argument.

 

[Njs523]

This thread is so pointless. The creator is basically saying the the playing field is uneven because of advanced techniques that everyone can learn. The fact that anyone can learn them is contradictory to the definition of 'unbalanced' in the first place. If you apply that logic to everything, than any move that everyone can't do ought to be taken out. We should just remove all buttons except for 'A' and the control stick I guess. While we're at it, lets make a rule saying that inherently smart people can't play, because they have an advantage too. Everyone should be equal regardless of time commitment or talent, because that's what makes a game bland and uninteresting, right? I love games like that; no room to improve and no commitment or skill necessary at all.

Also, L-canceling is not an 'exploit,' as you mentioned in your first post. It is part of the game, as it was in smash 64 (z-canceling).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Your description and opinion is just as biased because you're on the opposite side of argument.

You are labeling a whole group of players as "cheaters". I do believe I was minding my own business until you came along. I do not look down on low-level smashers at all... unless they do what you do and attempt to guilt trip us out of using advanced tactics.

Then your statement makes you look like a fool. Using exploits does not make you l33t high-level. Like others have said, using exploits does not even make you a worthy smash player. It's your skill with or WITHOUT the exploits that matters.

I look like a fool in whose eyes? After you answer that, why do I care? I believe you have your logic backwards. There is a correlation (not a direct relationship) between using exploits and being high-level. The whole point is to win. Tournaments lay down the rules and ban all game-breaking side effects (major glitches, lousy stages, etc.), but after that, everything is fair game. If you can do that without using any exploits, good for you! I have yet to see that happen...

Not anymore.

Why do you keep bringing up Brawl as grounds for defining glitches in Melee? Pichu has been removed from Melee. So, was Pichu a glitch? Is Pichu a cheat? Regardless, do you think casual smashers will magically rise up the ranks simply because wavedashing and L-canceling are gone? Hardly. The best smashers are the best not because they know how to wavedash and L-cancel perfectly. It goes way beyond that. They are the best because they learn the game to an amazing depth. They practice newly discovered tactics and use any combo necessary to get the job done. According to you, this is still cheating because it is unfair that one player has experience over the other one, whether the practiced tactics are "exploits" or not.

Read first quote.

How on earth do you define low-level? Maybe that is where our miscommunication is emanating from. I simply define low-level as a player who cannot win as much as a high-level player can. High-level players beat low-level players. Low-level players attain high-level status by finally defeating other high-level players. You take extreme offense to the term; this suggests that you still take into account this non-existent honor code where you can only win using honorable tactics. The saddest part about that is you all cannot even completely agree on which ones are dishonorable.

I'm sure people used Link before wavedashing/l-cancel was discovered. You make it sound as if people have to wavedash and L-cancel to be any good; you almost sound smug.

If you do not L-cancel with Link, you will lose. I do not know how to make that any clearer for you. Link does not win any big tournaments. If you view the results of any large tournament, the top characters are Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik. Occasionally, you will see Captain Falcon and Peach make appearances. Then again, maybe I better reevaluate my sources. I am referring to tournaments where cheating is allowed. >_>

Foolish generalizations. "Everyone"? Try, maybe a few hundred thousand Smash Players in all of the 8 million copies of Melee alone, at the very MOST. That is HARDLY "everyone" lol. 1/4th of my city's population is more than there are probably people who exploit Smash glitches/techniques.

I am going to say this again: you do not represent that majority. You keep ignoring the fact that the casual smashers I know do not consider anything I do to be "cheap", "cheating", etc. They either do not care or want to learn. So, more of that 8 million is on my side than you would like to think. Essentially, you are calling the competitive community and anyone else who wants to learn but simply does not have the time cheaters.

No person listens to that link because it's redundantly, and mockingly the most ridiculous thing I've seen in a while. It's a set of etiquette, terms, and standards set by some basement-dwelling neanderthal who thinks it's funny to spend hours writing a rule list on terms that don't exist outside internet vocabulary and unneeded regulations written in lulz format to try and sound as if they're intelligent enough to have the right to label and insultingly mock various personas. "Scrubz JOHN LOLOLOLZROFL". It sounds like a group of miscreants programmed to record skip 80's playground slang on the web. Internet culture is so embarassing.

No one has to listen to that link, but no one has to win in competition either. I have read those articles, and the author is simply breaking down the barriers of supposedly playing for "honor". He is not setting the standards; he is clarifying them by pointing how close-minded fools (such as yourself) refuse to embrace all legal aspects of a game by implementing these false standards involving "honor" and "playing for fun". If the tournament rules do not ban it, it is fair game. Nothing is considered an exploit in the tournament environment. They are only "exploits" in the eyes of those who feel threatened by their existence.

 

[moozles]

But seroiusly, how hard is it to wavedash or l-cancel. It'll probably just take about an hour at most to just sit down in front of your TV and THINK about how to do it instead of just mindlessly mashing x and diagonally down with L. Same with L-cancelling.

With these advanced techs, it doesn't make you a better player instantly. It just increases your potential. So, if you really care to win, you'll learn the techs and keep working at it to create combos, mindgames, etc.

Advanced techs just separates competitive people and casual players. Casual players taht want to get better will learn advanced techs unless they're 5 and cry because they can't use a certain move.

As for exploiting a glitch, well, what did you expect to happen with you air-dodge diagonally to the ground :/ I thought wavdashing was pretty ingenious when I first heard of it. L-cancelling isn't really a glitch either. There was z-cancelling. They had to fix it up a bit, but they didn't comepletely take it out :/

 

[Dogenzaka]

The creator is basically saying the the playing field is uneven because of advanced techniques that everyone can learn.

Yeah.

According to you, this is still cheating because it is unfair that one player has experience over the other one, whether the practiced tactics are "exploits" or not.

Not necessarily. It's not "whether or not", I believe they are exploits that pros and pros-in-training take advantage of to get better. I don't really consider it cheating since it's not cheats, but I do consider it an exploit that might be unfair simply because not everyone does it. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, that they did or didn't learn it for whatever reason, just that it shows that the majority can't/don't do these techniques. It's like if at a sword fight, my opponent brought a gun. Sure I'm capable of bringing a gun, but it's unfair that he brought one in the first place, I guess is the comparison I'm trying to make. Somewhat.

The fact that anyone can learn them is contradictory to the definition of 'unbalanced' in the first place.

Not everyone can, not everyone will, not everyone has the time, and the fact is, the people that have learned them, are a small majority of all the total Smash fans, so it's unbalanced, and telling the majority of the fans to "learn" something that was unnaturally discovered in the first place just to compete on that level is unfair in my opinion.

Why do you keep bringing up Brawl as grounds for defining glitches in Melee?

This thread isn't even about melee. It's about Melee techniques, and them being in Brawl, which they aren't in.

I am going to say this again: you do not represent that majority.

Of course not. I'm the minority that knows how to wavedash/L-cancel.

You keep ignoring the fact that the casual smashers I know do not consider anything I do to be "cheap", "cheating", etc.

I never considered it cheating, really.

They either do not care or want to learn. So, more of that 8 million is on my side than you would like to think. Essentially, you are calling the competitive community and anyone else who wants to learn but simply does not have the time cheaters.

Lol false. I never called them cheaters.

There is a correlation (not a direct relationship) between using exploits and being high-level.

Yes, I just wanted to make sure you knew it wasn't direct.

The whole point is to win. Tournaments lay down the rules and ban all game-breaking side effects (major glitches, lousy stages, etc.), but after that, everything is fair game. If you can do that without using any exploits, good for you! I have yet to see that happen...

You mean by "FOX ONLY! NO ITEMS! FINAL DESTINATION!"? lol. jk.

If you view the results of any large tournament, the top characters are Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik.

Yeah. Cuz they're fast characters, made unnaturally faster with wavedashing.

Occasionally, you will see Captain Falcon and Peach make appearances. Then again, maybe I better reevaluate my sources. I am referring to tournaments where cheating is allowed. >_>

What about Jiggly?

He is not setting the standards; he is clarifying them by pointing how close-minded fools (such as yourself)

If I was closed-minded I wouldn't have any consideration for the other side (people who don't know how to wavedash/l-cancel).

If the tournament rules do not ban it, it is fair game.

But anybody can make a tournament. I could host one and ban Fox. lol. Or is there an official Melee tournament association or something?

How on earth do you define low-level? Maybe that is where our miscommunication is emanating from. I simply define low-level as a player who cannot win as much as a high-level player can.

That might be where we're miscommunicating. I thought you meant it with a negative connotation as in the low-level player isn't as capable to play or just dumber/not as good.

Pichu has been removed from Melee.

I'm confused, he was? He's in my game o.o

Regardless, do you think casual smashers will magically rise up the ranks simply because wavedashing and L-canceling are gone? Hardly. The best smashers are the best not because they know how to wavedash and L-cancel perfectly.

Agreed.

I do believe I was minding my own business until you came along.

I came along? lol. You happened to come along this thread.

 

[veil222]

I'd rather have the depth in the characters, not the engine. That and it's pretty annoying that I can go to a tourny and watch anyone play their character, and that night practice a bit and completely emulate their game just by knowing the techs. I'd like to have to learn the character more, and learn the techs less.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Look, Wavedashing is in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itl9SHK7g5Y&mode=related&search=
@ 2:15 - 2:22 = Mario Wavedash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMgy... Bros Brawl Fire Emblem - Castle Siege 3-Tier
@1:22 - 1:28 = Ike Wavedash
Remember though, this is demo play. I wouldn't be surprised if Wavedashing is reduce to a situational technique or not even in the final at all.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Thats wavelanding, not wavedashing.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Not necessarily. It's not "whether or not", I believe they are exploits that pros and pros-in-training take advantage of to get better. I don't really consider it cheating since it's not cheats, but I do consider it an exploit that might be unfair simply because not everyone does it. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, that they did or didn't learn it for whatever reason, just that it shows that the majority can't/don't do these techniques. It's like if at a sword fight, my opponent brought a gun. Sure I'm capable of bringing a gun, but it's unfair that he brought one in the first place, I guess is the comparison I'm trying to make. Somewhat.

Using exploits isn't cheating anymore? You are confusing the moldy cheese out of me.

Not everyone can, not everyone will, not everyone has the time, and the fact is, the people that have learned them, are a small majority of all the total Smash fans, so it's unbalanced, and telling the majority of the fans to "learn" something that was unnaturally discovered in the first place just to compete on that level is unfair in my opinion.

What do you mean by "unnaturally" discovered? What is a "natural" discovery?

This thread isn't even about melee. It's about Melee techniques, and them being in Brawl, which they aren't in.

But you refer to techniques being absent in Brawl as grounds for them being "exploits".

Of course not. I'm the minority that knows how to wavedash/L-cancel.

I am not referring to your abilities. I am referring to your stance that wavedashing and L-canceling should be disallowed.

I never considered it cheating, really.

Who are you? What have you done with Dogenzaka?

Lol false. I never called them cheaters.

You are implicitly.

Yes, I just wanted to make sure you knew it wasn't direct.

Well, at least we agree on something.

You mean by "FOX ONLY! NO ITEMS! FINAL DESTINATION!"? lol. jk.

OH YEAH?? WELL... purple trees are happy... *brain collapses*

Yeah. Cuz they're fast characters, made unnaturally faster with wavedashing.

Again, there you go with that "unnatural" reference.

What about Jiggly?

She is pink.

If I was closed-minded I wouldn't have any consideration for the other side (people who don't know how to wavedash/l-cancel).

But you called us cheaters!! Don't deny that as you have done in the past few statements! Don't make me fish out your words calling exploit-users cheaters!

But anybody can make a tournament. I could host one and ban Fox. lol. Or is there an official Melee tournament association or something?

How many would attend? There is an "official" set of tournament rules (usually adaptations of the MLG rules), but it is only official as far as tournament hosts honor them. They are respected because they are used all over the country. If you host one and ban Fox, I would be very interested to know how many show up. ^_^

That might be where we're miscommunicating. I thought you meant it with a negative connotation as in the low-level player isn't as capable to play or just dumber/not as good.

Well, low-level means less ability to win. Our discrepancy apparently creeps in with the definition of "skill". >_>

I'm confused, he was? He's in my game o.o

I forgot the rest of my sentence. I was implying that he was removed in the transition to Brawl. (Though, I like the argument that it was actually Melee's Pikachu that was removed, and Pichu simply evolved into Pikachu between games.)

I came along? lol. You happened to come along this thread.

I didn't mean it in the sense that "you interrupted my life". I meant that you came along and made a public statement about your feelings on advanced tactics.

 

[Razed]

.

To some... >.>

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

To some... >.>

You're just jealous.

 

[Razed]

You're just jealous.

No, I just really had to use that pro pic and this was the first opportunity that came up

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

No, I just really had to use that pro pic and this was the first opportunity that came up

I like finding opportunities for my pics, too. ^_^

 

[x4FoSho4x]

You people make me sick. Why do I read these idiotic threads. Im not gonna post why and waste my time and continue and argument which has already been won before the topic was created. Please don't bother with these people.

Emblem Lord:If your reading this IDFC if you don't like my posts or not. I hate noobs like this with a passion. I don't care how I sound right now.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Using exploits isn't cheating anymore? You are confusing the moldy cheese out of me.

I never said it was cheating. lol.

What do you mean by "unnaturally" discovered? What is a "natural" discovery?

It wasn't there to begin with. Wavedashing wasn't discovered until well after Smash Bros. Melee released. It was unnaturally discovered because someone just happened to figure out a quick button combination that made you faster.

But you refer to techniques being absent in Brawl as grounds for them being "exploits".

Yes I consider them exploits.

You are implicitly.

Where?

But you called us cheaters!! Don't deny that as you have done in the past few statements! Don't make me fish out your words calling exploit-users cheaters!

Technically I called you a cheater (if you were the one) when you said you use cheap altruistic techniques, and anyone who doesn't is low-level. There was no mention of wavedashing/L-canceling or the other "exploits", you simply admitted to me that you're cheap, altruistic, and use such techniques, but no mention of wavedashing/L-canceling/etc. was said, and I only was speaking to you, not others. Lol.

I forgot the rest of my sentence. I was implying that he was removed in the transition to Brawl. (Though, I like the argument that it was actually Melee's Pikachu that was removed, and Pichu simply evolved into Pikachu between games.)

Pichu's no longer in Brawl? >:

I am not referring to your abilities. I am referring to your stance that wavedashing and L-canceling should be disallowed.

Well considering the number of wavedashers/l-cancelers in ratio to all the total smash players is small, I'm not sure if people who absolutely have to have wavedashing/l-canceling are in the majority lol.

I didn't mean it in the sense that "you interrupted my life". I meant that you came along and made a public statement about your feelings on advanced tactics.

Ah I see.

You people make me sick. Why do I read these idiotic threads. Im not gonna post why and waste my time and continue and argument which has already been won before the topic was created. Please don't bother with these people.

In all reality, debates can never be won, because there is always a counter-argument and counter-logic for every situation, and simply with time alotted, one could always toss ideas at eachother for eternity.

BTW, you come off as a bit indecisive if you think this thread is so idiotic you make a post bluntly stating how idiotic is, but saying "Don't bother here" "why do I read these idiotic threads" and "I'm not gonna post why and waste my time here". Why do you waste your time here then? I'm sure you have somewhere else to be grumpy lol.

 

[Razed]

I like finding opportunities for my pics, too. ^_^

I hope you just had an orgasm.

 

[Foxy K]

The way I see, if you can't beat em join em. I was NOT fan of Snaking in MKDS, but I kept losing. So I learned how to snake. It's fun. I sucked it up and joined the speedy people.

Same thing with Smash. You can learn the moves or you can lose. Your choice. This is only concerning online of course. If you hate the moves and your friends do to, then play without them with your friends, but don't punish the skilled people who've been having fun with these techniques for a long time. (Wavedashing is the funnest video game technique I've ever seen.) And it's not like it makes a difference anyway, we'll still see advanced techs in the game, and online, just not the same ones.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well, I've had my fill of this fruitless debate. I will return one day.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

I would call that a minority. Therefore, I doubt they are going to cater these techniques and glitches to the minority that know them, especially when the profit comes from casual gamers nowadays, which is the expanding market.

I have two problems with this argument. One its facts aren't right. Two, is profit what should really determine the content of a game?

1a. Halo 3 has proven that a hard core, competitive multiplayer game can make serious profits (the best revenue of this console generation so far although its obviously way way too early to tell.)

1b. Its great for Nintendo to dominate the casual market, but the goal is always to dominate all markets. I believe Brawl is Nintendo's best chance to get hard core gamer's to commit to the wii. Nintendo's single player games will never do it because for the last 10+ years they have all been incredibly easy (that is not to say they don't take time to beat, just that the amount of skill they take to beat is very, very low) and this trend does not seem to be changing (e.g. Phantom Hourglass ). It becomes a bit of a toss up then if Nintendo should attempt to even the playing field as you say. Will it make more money and get more hard core gamers to purchase wiis if it continues to reward high-skill techniques? or will it make more money by making a game that's its already established casual gamer demographic will snatch up?

2. Profit is nonetheless irrelevant especially in light of your other arguments. It has nothing to do with the smash bros. experience. Its a bit unfair to criticize you for this since you rely primarily to make your point but this one is a bit of a red-herring that I believe detracts from argument instead of adding to it.

On your main point. I do believe that the casual gamers will be upset if they get beaten by people who use advanced techniques. Part of this stems by the lack of documentation of these techniques. Even the advanced techniques that were purposefully programmed into melee had no documentation at all. I can under how somehow who loses to these techniques, having never seen them before or not understanding them, feels that he lost an unfair fight. But this unfairness isn't his opponents fault. IMO Nintendo should get its act together and encourage advanced techniques just like every other fighting game and decent competitive multiplayer game has. They've all included training modes as comprehensive as they can make them but promoted replays to capture the facets of the high-level play they can't document by the creating systems for saving and distributing replays.

If a concern is people getting dominated by players who use advanced techniques and play strictly to win, a simple solution would be a ranking system. This would also incredibly even the play field far more than the removal of the advanced techniques would. I don't think, losing to someone who uses such techniques would be nearly as frustrating if the match wasn't one sided. Yet Nintendo doesn't seem to be willing to surmount the technical and organization hurdles necessary to implement a system.

IMO, it seems Nintendo wants to create the best party game ever and its interest in making the best competitive multiplayer game is only secondary to that concern.

I love smash bros. and will buy Brawl and will get my money out of it because I'm sure the adventure mode will be fun and even if I don't like the gameplay as much as Melee it will take me a long time to decide that and I'll probably enjoy every minute of formulating that opinion. But Nintendo, by not supporting match making by skill, is in many ways saying that there is no skill involved in SSBB, and that any match up of players should be fun (its also reinforcing this notion through the implementation of incredibly power items that can more than make up differences in skill). By not documenting advanced techniques at all Nintendo is promoting a culture that thinks they shouldn't be in the game at all, even those techniques they intended (for example you clearly think l-canceling shouldn't be in the game though at one point at least , Sakurai thought it should).

 

[Njs523]

Not everyone can, not everyone will, not everyone has the time, and the fact is, the people that have learned them, are a small majority of all the total Smash fans, so it's unbalanced, and telling the majority of the fans to "learn" something that was unnaturally discovered in the first place just to compete on that level is unfair in my opinion.

Alright, you convinced me that you're ******** and don't know what balanced means. Video games aren't natural things in the first place. If someone cant learn something as simple as air-dodging into the ground at an angle (took me 15 minutes) or pressing L after an air move to recover faster, they are bad at the game, and no amount of changes to it would make them good. (Even if all that were taken out, they'd still be stupid and bad at everything).

You seem to fundamentally want everyone to be at the same skill level. Why are you trying to justify the people that refuse to learn certain aspects of the game? Why can't they just be bad and disadvantaged?

Your whole argument is like saying "I can't play basketball and refuse to try to learn it, but I think its unfair / unbalanced that other people can do things I cant because they practice it."

Just because the people who know about them are the minority means nothing. Those people who know them are the ones who care enough about the game to read about it online, and compete. The casual player:
a.) May not know about these techniques, but
b.) Never plays anyone good, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, things are not even unbalanced in the way you claim.

Your argument has so many holes I cant even write about them all. Saying that all games ought to be dumbed down so much that no advanced techniques even exist, and competitive play is impossible/boring as hell, is pretty much what you're doing.

 

[falco999]

@ threadstarter: nice sig

 

[frankisvital]

Shoulda, coulda, woulda...

All that matters is what we make with what we get.

So deal with it. All of you.

 

[Junpappy]

Not necessarily. It's not "whether or not", I believe they are exploits that pros and pros-in-training take advantage of to get better. I don't really consider it cheating since it's not cheats, but I do consider it an exploit that might be unfair simply because not everyone does it. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, that they did or didn't learn it for whatever reason, just that it shows that the majority can't/don't do these techniques. It's like if at a sword fight, my opponent brought a gun. Sure I'm capable of bringing a gun, but it's unfair that he brought one in the first place, I guess is the comparison I'm trying to make. Somewhat.

This is the dumbest argument you've made yet. It is NOTHING like bringing a gun to a sword fight. It would be much more comparable to someone bringing a stronger, more durable sword, which they made after hours of hammering and folding the steel. Is it unfair that their sword is better than yours? Only if you consider it unfair that they have spent more time perfecting the quality of their sword to begin with, which would make you quite the idiot.

If you don't have the time to learn these techniques, or if you are incapable for whatever reason, then you WILL have to accept that you're going to end up losing to the online players that use the "unnatural" techniques of Brawl that will be discovered. If you want to have fun, but can only have fun through winning, then you need to learn the techniques or find something else that you can win without practicing.

 

[Dan-E]

It's like if at a sword fight, my opponent brought a gun. Sure I'm capable of bringing a gun, but it's unfair that he brought one in the first place, I guess is the comparison I'm trying to make. Somewhat..

You would be stupid as **** not to bring a gun if you were allowed to though. End of argument thank you very much. Bye bye now.

 

[Red Exodus]

Lol, this reminds me of when I saw all of the holes in his argument, called him an idiot and never took this thread seriously again. There is no arguing with this guy.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Dogenzaka should start hosting Single Button Mode tournaments.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Dogenzaka should start hosting Single Button Mode tournaments.

LOLZ!! It would definetely fit his description of the way he wants games...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Lol, this reminds me of when I saw all of the holes in his argument, called him an idiot and never took this thread seriously again. There is no arguing with this guy.

Well, calling people idiots does tend to have that effect.....

 

[BlargCow]

Best thread evar.
I hope you don't find a technique in brawl and complain about it. :/

 

[Dogenzaka]

Oh lord. So many unfounded posts with flawed logic and misinformed tales. Where to start....

 

[Junpappy]

Oh lord. So many unfounded posts with flawed logic and misinformed tales. Where to start....

Start with this one

 

[Smo]

Gah I actually agree with tihs guy.

Let's use Halo 2 as an example. In Halo 2, there is an adv. tech called BXR. One pushes B (to pistol whip), X (to make the character attempt to reload and cancel the punch animation) then R to fire the gun. When performed correctly with a battle rifle, it's an instant kill.

Now, if someone knows this technique and they use it against someone who doesn't, does that mean they have more skill? No.

There is a difference between skill and knowledge. Just because the Halo 2 player found BXRing on a forum once doesn't give him the right to win a match when there are other people playing who are faster and better.

Same with every advanced technique. One won't make a difference. For example, if both players know L-cancelling and shield-grabbing, but only one knew how to wavedash... I doubt that player would have a huge advantage. Now lets say they both know L-cancelling and shield grabbing, but one knows how to Wavedash, JC grab, Waveshine, ledge-hop, wall-tech, Crouch cancel and SHFFL.... just because he'd been on Smash World Forums.... does that give him a right to win?

In a way, he is allowed to have a bit of an advantage, but I think anyone with 4+ brain cells would be able to see that the match was imbalanced.

I'm not saying that everyone should have an equal chance of winning, because skill = winning... but meh, I don't know how to phrase what I'm trying to get at, but hopefully those with 6+ braincells will be able to catch my drift.


Edit: To clarify, before you start saying I'm a scrub who is just here to whine about good players.... I use most of the advanced techniques in my game completely naturally and find no problem with them.

I'm just saying I also see where this guy is coming from. If I was playing online, I wouldn't want to be smashed into the ground (no pun intended) by some guy who knows adv. techs....

Then again...
I suppose it would help you improve.

I've confused myself. I dunno know where I stand.
100 posts, baby

 

[El Raspa]

I think that the solutions could be a better online sistem in wich you can ask how did you do that "strange" moves and the pro send the noob to places like this one

but in the matter of fact the true is that always there is gonna be pro's and noobs

The thing that is bothering us is that the game becomes slower without wavedash and l-cancel, not because the noobs are gonna win against the pro's

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

OMFG... You guys twist the meaning of the word "skill" so much that rather than argue about the definition I will just say it: WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT SO-CALLED SKILL. The game is not about who possesses more "skill". There is no trophy handed to the more "skilled" player. All that matters is who wins! If you lose to someone "less skilled" than you, don't make up excuses. The "unskilled" opponent obviously knew something you didn't. Attempting to intellectualize it and suggest that he didn't deserve to win is absurd.

 

[Sandwich]

OMFG... You guys twist the meaning of the word "skill" so much that rather than argue about the definition I will just say it: WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT SO-CALLED SKILL. The game is not about who possesses more "skill". There is no trophy handed to the more "skilled" player. All that matters is who wins! If you lose to someone "less skilled" than you, don't make up excuses. The "unskilled" opponent obviously knew something you didn't. Attempting to intellectualize it and suggest that he didn't deserve to win is absurd.

QFT, I guess.

 

[commonyoshi]

In all reality, debates can never be won, because there is always a counter-argument and counter-logic for every situation, and simply with time alotted, one could always toss ideas at eachother for eternity.

Debates can always be won. Otherwise, it's not a debate and just a bunch of people preaching at each other. You know what? One side has already won this debate even before this thread was even created. People on the other side just either dont read all of the posts from the original debates or they close their eyes and pretend nothing happened.

I really wish someone could create an anti-stupid people thread where they somehow compile a list of every single arguement for wavedashing and all counter arguements to support it. That way, we dont have to waste our time making the same post we've been making for years. We could just go to that thread and copy and paste to save ourselves time.

 

[Lawk]

I always found that wavedash etc. based games are far more boring generally. Clearly the negativity towards those moves can be removed by including a tutorial in game? Make them obvious and available to everyone - not just to the obsessive internet based smashers (like us, boohoo).

 

[Adi]

Well half the advanced techniques and their potentials are discovered by the players, not developed by the producers. It is a necessity to visit sites like this if you want to do well in the game.

 

[Lawk]

Well half the advanced techniques and their potentials are discovered by the players, not developed by the producers. It is a necessity to visit sites like this if you want to do well in the game.

But therin lies a conundrum - if the developer does not know about it, how can they balance it? As far as I know some characters gain quite a boost based on how easy it is to wavedash etc.

I don't feel that these "techs" (a.ka. exploits, lets face it guys) should be removed but clearly they should not be only available to those who manage to get bungle their way onto these sites.