Melee Ports Wanted Changes Thread

[Phaiyte]

I'm sorry that you choose to be so blatantly ignorant of your own actions. But hey, didn't expect anything else anyways~

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

You do realize that characters in this game are not automatically obligated to have anything to do with their corresponding games, right? The only similarity that they "have to have" is that they're some massive combination of 0s and 1s. Like foreal, if you're that worried about canon we'd might as well just have Sheik play a harp and throw deku nuts and that's it. Or I don't know. Maybe she appeared in the archery game for the Wii as some crazy mobile ninja with a sick grab game and sweet projectiles.

Get real, dude.

So your entire argument against it is "It's not obligated", then you bring up Sheik, a character that has never had a role in anything outside of NPC which pushes the story along. It's pretty clear that you're not interested or willing to have a conversation and the only thing you're interested in doing is quelling thoughts in a thread that you don't happen to agree with. =/

 

[Phaiyte]

So your entire argument against it is "It's not obligated", then you bring up Sheik, a character that has never had a role in anything outside of NPC which pushes the story along. It's pretty clear that you're not interested or willing to have a conversation and the only thing you're interested in doing is quelling thoughts in a thread that you don't happen to agree with. =/

It's currently a serious thing 100% relevant to the things you've typed at me. If you want canon so bad then tell us how Sheik should be designed.

Please sempai we need your knowledge.

 

[Phaiyte]

Oh, while I'm still here, I'd may as well go ahead and link this for you just in case. You should really check it out, man!

http://smashboards.com/forums/character-discussion.327/

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

It's currently a serious thing 100% relevant to the things you've typed at me. If you want canon so bad then tell us how Sheik should be designed.

Please sempai we need your knowledge.

What you're doing right now is trying to come up with an unfalsifiable argument which has no good answer. It seems like you're fishing for "I don't know" in order to act like no ideas outside of the ones you hold have any value whatsoever.

Never once, did I state that canon was the ultimate answer for everything. My entire point was that I believe it'd be interesting if Marth at the very least had one attack from his game that was in fact canon, and that Brawl did in fact have this attack. I'm not going to complain if it doesn't happen, which it clearly won't. From a competitive standpoint, the overhead swing is probably vastly superior than a fast stab with a smaller hitbox. It's simply an interesting idea to me.

It would certainly be easier to take your posts as serious if you weren't constantly condescending against everyone when they happen to say something you don't agree with. It's not a **** waving competition, it's a casual conversation about a video game posted on an internet forum.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't think Marth really needs anything better, but I could see him being able to cancel his fsmash charge animation into shield breaker could be a cool mixup. Reminiscent of SC2 charging attack cancels.

 

[The_NZA]

brawl's shieldbreaker wasn't broken though

also I hate to break it to you son, but shieldbreaker and fsmash share very similar hitboxes: both start from overhead and swing down, both hit below the edges of the stage...

Shield Breaker

Fsmash

Melee shieldbreaker is basically an chargable fsmash that you can do in the air and one that you don't have to space. except that it's a worse version of the move. fsmash is a kill move without charging it up. which is why I suggested tweaking a Brawl shieldbreaker to make it more useable rather than simply porting it.

saying that it should stay the same, despite Roy now coming out with Flare Blade, which is EXACTLY the same move...

is basically saying "becuz melee"

I don't think this should be looked at as a flaw, but instead as a strength. I could see him being able to cancel his fsmash charge animation into shield breaker, reminiscent of SC2 charging attack cancels.

 

[Phaiyte]

What they "look like" doesn't mean ****, unless you've somehow forgotten the difference between Fox and Falco's Shines or Ganon/Falcon's UAir. They have different frame data, different damage, different knockback ratios, and you can't FSmash in the air.

Roy's is also entirely different from Marth's.

And again, it has absolutely nothing to do with 'bcz maylay'

 

[CyberZixx]

As a Marth main I see positives for both versions of shield breaker.
Melee SB is a niche move that has little use for it's intended purpose. When I am pressuring someone and their shield is getting lower I may throw it out, but I don't it works well at this because there is too much recovery on the move for it to be an effective poke. Where it's strength lies in certain situations where you are aerial comboing someone and you are either too far away to fair someone or want that extra knockback of SB.

I do not know the properties of Brawl SB well so bare with me on that. It could be used better to serve to actually apply pressure with shields as it is a poke motion and could be make to have less recovery. It it was able to be implemented to that purpose well it could be a neat buff to Marth's game to give him greater pressure. Another plus is that Marth is unable to recovery high and the Brawl SB allows him a decent option for it. Down side is that it can not be use as a combo ender ala Melee SB.

 

[MagnesD3]

As a Marth main I see positives for both versions of shield breaker.
Melee SB is a niche move that has little use for it's intended purpose. When I am pressuring someone and their shield is getting lower I may throw it out, but I don't it works well at this because there is too much recovery on the move for it to be an effective poke. Where it's strength lies in certain situations where you are aerial comboing someone and you are either too far away to fair someone or want that extra knockback of SB.

I do not know the properties of Brawl SB well so bare with me on that. It could be used better to serve to actually apply pressure with shields as it is a poke motion and could be make to have less recovery. It it was able to be implemented to that purpose well it could be a neat buff to Marth's game to give him greater pressure. Another plus is that Marth is unable to recovery high and the Brawl SB allows him a decent option for it. Down side is that it can not be use as a combo ender ala Melee SB.

I feel it would give Marth more options if buffed correctly though. (I also want certain or all ground normals to be cancel able into his b over.)

 

[Shadow Huan]

@ NZA: hey someone finally acknowledged my post lol

in response to your post though, Marth has fsmash, ftilt, dtilt and jab to edgeguard, and 4 out of his 5 airs for gimping. melee shieldbreaker just makes his edgeguards even stronger, which is an additional strength that he doesn't really need imo.

I will agree that all his normals cancelling into specials is a bit much, and you do have an interesting idea.

I think that another interesting option would be to make it an optional animation, sorta like Peach's sideB?

What they "look like" doesn't mean ****, unless you've somehow forgotten the difference between Fox and Falco's Shines or Ganon/Falcon's UAir. They have different frame data, different damage, different knockback ratios, and you can't FSmash in the air.

Roy's is also entirely different from Marth's.

And again, it has absolutely nothing to do with 'bcz maylay'

Roy's Flare Blade does more damage and takes longer to charge up. they have the same range and hit in the same manner. that's the differences.

Using frame data?

Marth's Shieldbreaker

Time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 121 frames

Roy's Flare Blade

Time to start charge: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 211 frames

and you're right, you can't fsmash in the air. I said so myself.

@MaxwellMouse:

Brawl Shieldbreaker Frame data

Shield Breaker:
Hit: 19-22
End: 53
Shield Stun: 9
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
Tipper Shield Stun: 9
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE: -31

slower startup than melee's, but overall faster. interesting

 

[Phaiyte]

my post was actually about the difference between nB and FSmash

 

[Mera Mera]

My opinion on why people aren't taking this seriously:
1) A clear well reasoned purpose has not been stated other than that this is a different game from Melee. After reading the thread I also saw the reason of "people shouldn't have useless moves," which is definitely a more valid thing you could try to argue. In fact, I might get behind this thread if the goal was "Melee top tiers have many useless moves, and the more viable tools a character has to consider in a situation, the more potential there is for depth."

2) Some of the suggestions seem a bit extreme in the sense that the suggestion doesn't consider the impact on the balance or playstyle of the character. The idea of being able to cancel Marth's normals into side B, for example. Not only would this look a bit odd outside of turbo mode, but it would significantly decrease to risk of approaching recklessly with Marth. Heck, maybe I'm wrong and it would be fine if Marth could cancel his normals into side B, but when something like that is stated without a thoughtful explanation on why it would be good and not toxic to the character with the suggested change, people tend to just not take it seriously.

3) I'm not saying this is completely fair, but as far as we know, the people suggesting the changes aren't very good at the game. People tend to think they are far better than they are, so it's easy to dismiss a name you don't recognize. That doesn't mean that people who aren't good shouldn't make suggestions, just that you'll have to make an argument and be willing to admit when it turns out the idea would have negative consequences that you hadn't thought of.

My suggestion to this thread is:
1) Edit the opening post to express a thesis/argument as to why it would be good for the Melee top tiers to be changed.

2) Explain how you think each of your suggested changes would impact the game. If what you suggest makes a character more canon, be sure to mention that as many people have passion for where the characters came from.

3) Openly ask for constructive criticism from better/more well known players and be willing to concede when someone gives good arguments as to why a suggested change would be a bad fit for this game or character.

 

[JayMan-X]

All I want is to be able to hit my opponents with aerial Raptor Boost while they're on the stage, and have time to shield before they tech, get up, make a sandwich, and smash me back off the stage. If you get hit by aerial Raptor Boost while standing on the stage, you deserve to lose your edgeguard. Also to clarify, I don't mean hit their shield, if they shield it, they should have time to run over and grab Falcon before he can shield.

I totally agree with this. Aerial Raptor Boost on hit should knock people down somehow.

 

[Shadow Huan]

who am i? I could ask you the same question, I don't recognize your name either dude lol

:D

but seriously some that's some good advice

 

[standardtoaster]

+respect because of avatar

 

[turtletank]

Wow, actual discussion taking place in a troll-post. I am impressed.

 

[MagnesD3]

My opinion on why people aren't taking this seriously:
1) A clear well reasoned purpose has not been stated other than that this is a different game from Melee. After reading the thread I also saw the reason of "people shouldn't have useless moves," which is definitely a more valid thing you could try to argue. In fact, I might get behind this thread if the goal was "Melee top tiers have many useless moves, and the more viable tools a character has to consider in a situation, the more potential there is for depth."

2) Some of the suggestions seem a bit extreme in the sense that the suggestion doesn't consider the impact on the balance or playstyle of the character. The idea of being able to cancel Marth's normals into side B, for example. Not only would this look a bit odd outside of turbo mode, but it would significantly decrease to risk of approaching recklessly with Marth. Heck, maybe I'm wrong and it would be fine if Marth could cancel his normals into side B, but when something like that is stated without a thoughtful explanation on why it would be good and not toxic to the character with the suggested change, people tend to just not take it seriously.

3) I'm not saying this is completely fair, but as far as we know, the people suggesting the changes aren't very good at the game. People tend to think they are far better than they are, so it's easy to dismiss a name you don't recognize. That doesn't mean that people who aren't good shouldn't make suggestions, just that you'll have to make an argument and be willing to admit when it turns out the idea would have negative consequences that you hadn't thought of.

My suggestion to this thread is:
1) Edit the opening post to express a thesis/argument as to why it would be good for the Melee top tiers to be changed.

2) Explain how you think each of your suggested changes would impact the game. If what you suggest makes a character more canon, be sure to mention that as many people have passion for where the characters came from.

3) Openly ask for constructive criticism from better/more well known players and be willing to concede when someone gives good arguments as to why a suggested change would be a bad fit for this game or character.

I only have a few changes that I want to see done to Marth.

* I want his Shield Breaker changed for several reasons. 1. It currently isnt very useful and doesnt add a whole lot to his options. 2. would give him better horizontal recovery as well make is shield breaking game significantly scarier. 3. Also from a canonical stand point the move is more accurate. 4. It will no longer be the same move as Roys.

Changes I want done to Shield Breaker.

A. I want Shield Breaker to obtain Brawls animation and hitbox.

B. I want Shield Breaker to require significantly less charge time to reach its full charge.

C. I want Shield Breaker when fully charged to break any shield when hitting with any part of the move, if you hit an opponent not guarding with the tip at full charge it should do a ton of damage/knockback.

D. When doing Shield Breaker on the ground it should slightly lunge you forward at its base level, the more you change it the farther it will lunge marth giving the move more range (nothing compared to ikes though clearly).

E. Aerial lunge is increased the longer you charged allowing for better horizontal recovery as it doesnt use your b up.

* Reasons I want his B Over Improved. 1. I feel it isnt very viable as is in competitive play when compared to his other moves. 2. Was used for horizontal recovery but that will be mostly replaced by shield breaker. 3. It will now give him an incredible and safe pressure/mixup ground game.

Changes I want done to Dancing Blade

A. On hit or on block all grounded normal attacks are now cancellable into Dancing Blade.

For Marth thats all I want changed I feel it will give him a new dynamic to his overall gameplan while being basically the same character.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

What they "look like" doesn't mean ****, unless you've somehow forgotten the difference between Fox and Falco's Shines or Ganon/Falcon's UAir. They have different frame data, different damage, different knockback ratios, and you can't FSmash in the air.

Roy's is also entirely different from Marth's.

And again, it has absolutely nothing to do with 'bcz maylay'

You specifically said "- If you actually believe shield breaker is anything like FSmash, then I got news for you, son. You got 99 problems, but quite frankly, knowledge is one." I'm sorry that you worded it in a manner that allows for you to be wrong, but you are. I stated that the exact qualities of the attack are not identical and you ignored that to continue your "I'm smarter than everyone and you're stupid" tirade. Grow up.

I feel it would give Marth more options if buffed correctly though. (I also want certain or all ground normals to be cancel able into his b over.)

I think there's a fine line between making Dancing Blade a more active part of Marth's gameplay and over-centralizing it to change how he fights drastically. I understand why you'd want side B to be used more, but with the release of Roy, I feel like Roy is going to be the one who uses his side B in battle and that Marth being able to do it more would sort of step on his toes.

His side B isn't very useful in most cases that aren't recovery. So perhaps instead of the dancing blade, he could have his Brawl shield breaker animation used for a completely different attack. It's not a very indepth thought for how it would effect his gameplay, but they both kind of work for recovery and DB isn't really actively used on stage, so maybe?

 

[MagnesD3]

You specifically said "- If you actually believe shield breaker is anything like FSmash, then I got news for you, son. You got 99 problems, but quite frankly, knowledge is one." I'm sorry that you worded it in a manner that allows for you to be wrong, but you are. I stated that the exact qualities of the attack are not identical and you ignored that to continue your "I'm smarter than everyone and you're stupid" tirade. Grow up.

I think there's a fine line between making Dancing Blade a more active part of Marth's gameplay and over-centralizing it to change how he fights drastically. I understand why you'd want side B to be used more, but with the release of Roy, I feel like Roy is going to be the one who uses his side B in battle and that Marth being able to do it more would sort of step on his toes.

His side B isn't very useful in most cases that aren't recovery. So perhaps instead of the dancing blade, he could have his Brawl shield breaker animation used for a completely different attack. It's not a very indepth thought for how it would effect his gameplay, but they both kind of work for recovery and DB isn't really actively used on stage, so maybe?

Tbh I dont know how Roy's b over will functions which is why I havent put it into my equation of changes.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Tbh I dont know how Roy's b over will functions which is why I havent put it into my equation of changes.

I don't know the exact function for it, but they put more emphasis on his side b in the Roy trailer. I figure that it is far more important than Marth's for his design.

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't know the exact function for it, but they put more emphasis on his side b in the Roy trailer. I figure that it is far more important than Marth's for his design.

True, im interested to see how it will work. Once we know I will most likely edit my opinion accordingly.

 

[Paradoxium]

To be honest, the only things that really need to be changed are the worthless specials. They need a little more spice and a little more use.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

To be honest, the only things that really need to be changed are the worthless specials. They need a little more spice and a little more use.

As long as a character has good tools in their inventory, it's fine if a few specials/attacks aren't that good competitively. Puff's sing allows her to grab the ledge backwards, so that's something. Of course, if a character isn't viable enough with what they have and they still have some completely worthless attacks, that'd be a good time to fix them up.

 

[210stuna]

This thread will be where people can list wanted changes to the following characters: Marth, Jiggilypuff, Shiek, Captain Falcon, Fox and Falco
2: Eliminating Useless moves.

I'll bite.

2 out of those 6 characters have maybe 1 "useless move"

Care to elaborate what you mean OP?

 

[| Kailex |]

Id like to have brawl's shield breaker as well, dont like the melee version as much

 

[MagnesD3]

I'll bite.

2 out of those 6 characters have maybe 1 "useless move"

Care to elaborate what you mean OP?

I probably should have said basically useless moves, as in they are extremely situational in use and dont add a whole lot to those characters gameplans, also I said that those are the reasons that could be for the changes listed in this thread I never said they all had to apply to the respected changes listed. Thats why I put Balance on the list first, then Useless moves.

 

[Juushichi]

I only have a few changes that I want to see done to Marth:

nB
* I want his Shield Breaker changed for several reasons. 1. It currently isnt very useful and doesnt add a whole lot to his options. 2. would give him better horizontal recovery as well make is shield breaking game significantly scarier. 3. Also from a canonical stand point the move is more accurate. 4. It will no longer be the same move as Roys.

A. I want Shield Breaker to obtain Brawls animation and hitbox.
B. I want Shield Breaker to require significantly less charge time to reach its full charge.
C. I want Shield Breaker when fully charged to break any shield when hitting with any part of the move, if you hit an opponent not guarding with the tip at full charge it should do a ton of damage/knockback.
D. When doing Shield Breaker on the ground it should slightly lunge you forward at its base level, the more you change it the farther it will lunge marth giving the move more range (nothing compared to ikes though clearly).
E. Aerial lunge is increased the longer you charged allowing for better horizontal recovery as it doesnt use your b up.

fB:
* Reasons I want his B Over Improved. 1. I feel it isnt very viable as is in competitive play when compared to his other moves. 2. Was used for horizontal recovery but that will be mostly replaced by shield breaker. 3. It will now give him an incredible and safe pressure/mixup ground game.

Changes I want done to Dancing Blade
A. On hit or on block all grounded normal attacks are now cancellable into Dancing Blade.

Okay, I am not the best PM player in the world (I'm barely even good, I think) but I'll take a shot at this:

Neutral Special:
Your first point is something that I want to challenge directly and later offer some suggestions:
I don't think the Sheildbreaker is the most useful move he has, but it has some advantages:
- It punishes shield and damages it so he can use his nice, disjointed hitbox sword and more easily shield poke with later attacks (tilts, aerials mainly).
- With b-reversing, you have an option running off of a platform to counterattack and leads into what I just talked about. You can also jump and harass people on platforms if you want to mixup and not throw an aerial.
- It can be charged and the startup allows it to "beat" spotdodges even when uncharged.
- It is safer than forward smash.
- It is his 4th(?) longest move on the ground. (behind Forward Smash, Jab, Forward Tilt... maybe Down Tilt is shorter.)

A change that I would make for it: Add a "tipper" part of the move if there isn't already and if tipped, allow it to do more shield damage (maybe 1.2 to 1.5 shield damage like his counter's damage).

Forward Special:
Honestly, I think that this move is fine. Cancelling grounded normals into Dancing Blade just seems kind of awkward and I don't really think that it adds any synergy to his already spacing intensive kit. It maybe allows for poorly spaced jabs or just jabs to be cancelled into dancing blade? I don't know why you would want to cancel any of his tilts into Dancing Blade since the cooldown on the move does not allow him to whiff and start something else fast enough to punish things. Buffs to his recovery (much like brawl's, I guess?) also don't really seem like they are a necessity.

 

[BTmoney]

Marth:

Side b still mostly useless, not really an incentive to use it over something else. I don't know if it is ever situationally correct to go past the first hit

Usmash still useless. Maybe revamp entirely

Dsmash still almost useless. This could really stand to have better IASA frames. Unreasonably unsafe

 

[Juushichi]

Tipper Dsmash is an okay ledge punish and kills lighter characters at ~140, I think, Blacktician.

It could afford to have better IASA though.

 

[Phaiyte]

You specifically said "- If you actually believe shield breaker is anything like FSmash, then I got news for you, son. You got 99 problems, but quite frankly, knowledge is one." I'm sorry that you worded it in a manner that allows for you to be wrong, but you are. I stated that the exact qualities of the attack are not identical and you ignored that to continue your "I'm smarter than everyone and you're stupid" tirade. Grow up.

I think there's a fine line between making Dancing Blade a more active part of Marth's gameplay and over-centralizing it to change how he fights drastically. I understand why you'd want side B to be used more, but with the release of Roy, I feel like Roy is going to be the one who uses his side B in battle and that Marth being able to do it more would sort of step on his toes.

His side B isn't very useful in most cases that aren't recovery. So perhaps instead of the dancing blade, he could have his Brawl shield breaker animation used for a completely different attack. It's not a very indepth thought for how it would effect his gameplay, but they both kind of work for recovery and DB isn't really actively used on stage, so maybe?

If it's not useful at all, how come Ken does it ALL THE TIME

 

[Juushichi]

If it's not useful at all, how come Ken does it ALL THE TIME

CHECKMAKE ATHEISTS

(also he still does 2007 things) and more importantly, he just makes it work for himself i guess.

 

[MagnesD3]

Okay, I am not the best PM player in the world (I'm barely even good, I think) but I'll take a shot at this:

Neutral Special:
Your first point is something that I want to challenge directly and later offer some suggestions:
I don't think the Sheildbreaker is the most useful move he has, but it has some advantages:
- It punishes shield and damages it so he can use his nice, disjointed hitbox sword and more easily shield poke with later attacks (tilts, aerials mainly).
- With b-reversing, you have an option running off of a platform to counterattack and leads into what I just talked about. You can also jump and harass people on platforms if you want to mixup and not throw an aerial.
- It can be charged and the startup allows it to "beat" spotdodges even when uncharged.
- It is safer than forward smash.
- It is his 4th(?) longest move on the ground. (behind Forward Smash, Jab, Forward Tilt... maybe Down Tilt is shorter.)

A change that I would make for it: Add a "tipper" part of the move if there isn't already and if tipped, allow it to do more shield damage (maybe 1.2 to 1.5 shield damage like his counter's damage).

Forward Special:
Honestly, I think that this move is fine. Cancelling grounded normals into Dancing Blade just seems kind of awkward and I don't really think that it adds any synergy to his already spacing intensive kit. It maybe allows for poorly spaced jabs or just jabs to be cancelled into dancing blade? I don't know why you would want to cancel any of his tilts into Dancing Blade since the cooldown on the move does not allow him to whiff and start something else fast enough to punish things. Buffs to his recovery (much like brawl's, I guess?) also don't really seem like they are a necessity.

The use of cancelling a jab or other grounded normals into dancing blade would be that it allows on block (or hit with jab) to cover ground quickly into a string that on block has the opportunity to go in for alot of shield damage, or stop halfway through to go for a grab mixup or to reset the situation to go for another jab into another dancing blade if your opponent doesnt try and get out, aka mind games, as for on hit moves like jab on hit would have a following combo from this or just like on block you can end the combo early to try and reset the situation. It would excel marth pressure/ground game alot. Another example could be stopping halfway with the dance with your opponent guarding then you decide to start charging for marths new Sheild Breaker, due to the new lunge and charge time your opponent would quickly have to make a decision on how he wants to get out of there because it will have dire consequences on what he decides (however if marth fails their is the risk of punishment but marth is at advantage in the guessing game here) on block his shield will bust depending on how long marth charges on hit the tip is deadly. That is just one example of the new ground game that can open up from grounded normals being cancellable into his Dance. Just imagine a blocked tip of a spaced forward smash into the Dance, if your opponent doesnt get out quick its almost a guaranteed sheild break.

 

[Juushichi]

I think that at that point you are playing Turbo.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

If it's not useful at all, how come Ken does it ALL THE TIME

You are really grasping at things to try and be seen as right, aren't you? You even ignored my response to you and commented on something directed to someone different. If you can read, and I assume you can, I didn't say not useful at all, I said not useful in most. If Ken makes it work for him, then he makes it work for him, and that's fine. I don't find many times to use it myself, nor do I hear people singing praises for the attack in general, hence why I said it's not useful in most cases.

I'm trying to put some effort into talking to you about things you may not agree with, maybe you could put some effort into talking to instead of down at others.

 

[MagnesD3]

I think that at that point you are playing Turbo.

It would only be Turbo if his Dance were cancellable into all normals and vice versa, except its only one way grounded normals are cancellable into Dance so the best you can get on hit is a full combo or a reset situation, nothing like the turbo videos. (although it will look quite badass.) (also think regular fighting game situations if your still not seeing what im thinking.)

 

[Crescent Monkey]

I think reading this thread gave me cancer

 

[-Se7en-]

Give Roy the same grab range as Marth if it isn't yet

 

[-Se7en-]

The melee vets are fine, slight tweaks, SLIGHT TWEAKS, would be all that is required. Marth is fine, grab range and all. There's always gonna be a character who best at something and Marth is best at grabbing. The only thing I would change is his side -b, down-b, and normal b. They aren't really that useful.
Jiggs is fine, I actually enjoy a spacing/zoning game.
Shiek is fine
C Falcon needs better recovery, and his down be needs to be tweaked. Other than that he's fine.

All he needs is something to approach with

 

[-Se7en-]

Jokes on you bud. I literally don't give a **** about Melee lol

Then what are you doing in this thread?