Melee Might Die: A Rebuttal to "Why Melee Won't Die"

This originally appeared as a post on /r/ssbm, the Melee subreddit. The original post in its entirety can be found here. It has been reworked for formatting on Smashboards with minor edits to be posted here.

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I want to preface this opinion piece by stating the obvious: HugS is a far more outstanding and knowledgeable community member than myself. He's seen it all from the beginning to the present and I'm some 09'er, and if I were you I would value his opinion over mine. I'm also limiting my scope to what I think our community is actually capable of controlling. For example, eSports unexpectedly dying in the next 15 years is not something to worry about unless it happens. Maybe we should worry about that.

I enjoyed HugS's piece, published in MeleeItOnMe October 9th, however I believe his optimism is warranted only on a superficial level, and I think his arguments suffer from unclear chronology. Their problem is that they speak more to the question of why Melee is currently alive and how it got here rather than why it won't die at some point in the future, which HugS readily admits is a possibility in his opening. On a long enough timeline Melee's death is certain, but that doesn't tell us anything useful. To be absolutely clear, here's my proposed timeline. Melee deserves at least a century of play, and it deserves to be big. Not just eSport big, but Olympics big, NCAA big.

What follows is predicated on anything short of a Melee century being considered an early death. Can you plan that? Probably not, but then again I have no doubt that right now major community members are collaborating with industry professionals to try to accomplish just that. It's what we all want, and the potential for profit is significant. They are inevitably going to run into obstacles that can't be beaten with a reddit fundraiser, or a Facebook campaign, or even all the familiar faces coming out to rally us for a Spirit Bomb, Gods throwing down in the background... There is a timeline where Melee dies, and to be proactive about avoiding it we need to identify those obstacles and learn as much as we can about them before they ever present a real problem. The only tested and proven method for keeping Melee alive through tough times is having an informed and active community ready to go on a moment's notice.

Melee Welcomed Back To EVO 2013​

In a skype conversation with Scar in 2013 he asked me about the future of Melee, and I basically paraphrased HugS's article. This was during the EVO drive. I was feeling what everyone was feeling. This is it, the return of the Eternal Game. The prospect of Melee back at the biggest fighting game stage in the world was the culmination of a nearly six-year effort to keep the fire burning and all of us, new members and old, got to enjoy an enormous payoff. Ever pull off a huge comeback against your rival? It felt something like that, but for the whole community, and the feeling didn't go away. Melee as an institution felt and still feels invincible.

Before you keep reading, I need you to let go of that feeling and see the game and the scene with fresh eyes for a second, because if Melee is really going to be the game that lives, the people who will keep it alive haven't even picked up a controller yet. If you don’t keep these people in mind when you discuss the future of Melee, you aren’t discussing the future of Melee. No matter how storied a community might be, if it doesn’t attract enough new players to grow then it will die, but we’re a little more ambitious than mere survival, right?

Here are HugS's main points and a summary of their contents below.

1. "Support From Major Esports Players"
- Our multiple sponsors support and genuinely love Melee, thus they are incentivized to prevent its death.

2. "Resistance to Sequel Replacement"
- Having survived two sequels Melee is ostensibly a standalone title until an HD rerelease/true successor.

3. "Ease of Viewership and Story Lines"
- The human drama and on-screen action of Melee is attractive to general audiences irrespective of specific game knowledge.

4 "Community-based Upbringing"
- Melee is a social binding agent that has cemented a foundation of dedicated community organizers who are also best friends, who won't let each other down by allowing Melee to die

Let's go through them briefly.

1. Our sponsors love and support Melee right now, but we're also a hot commodity right now. They may support us through a rough patch if something happens and viewership declines, but only up to a point. Some of the employees of said sponsors may be fanatics like us, just as enthused and ready to lend a hand. Some might even have significant clout in their respective organizations that they use for Melee's benefit. The love of those individuals reflects neither the will of the shareholders, nor is it any assurance of continued support; to them we are an engine for success. These are their jobs and they cannot support decisions that their numbers say are wrong. We cannot ascribe notions of human loyalty to for-profit entities. They will do what they need to do to survive, as should we. We are well-positioned to profitably coexist with a number of them, but this is sustenance, not insurance. This is a symptom of success, not a cause.

2. This trait is demonstrably a major factor in Melee's staying power; the metagame chugs on ceaselessly while technical wizards like Dan Salvato demonstrate that Melee can be adapted to have increased functionality for a new generation of competitors. If Melee is to survive a century, it's going to need to adapt, and we’re going to need oversight over that adaptation. The elephant in the room is Nintendo. They have the final say over the distribution of what is legally their content. They can prevent us from changing the game if we need to. They can split the community any time they want by re-releasing Melee with the slightest of changes. They're a bull in a china shop, and there's a reckoning to be had over whose game this really is. Until we resolve this Melee will always have two directions, ours and theirs.

Can I even mention PM? Is the gag on? Nintendo may play dumb with their official silence but they've had plenty of chances to take legal action that would lead to PM being an officially approved Nintendo mod, thus giving the game its own life and ensuring tournaments for ostensible Nintendo fans, maybe even making new ones in the process. Instead, they choked the distribution of PM videos and forced tournaments to drop the game once they started officially sponsoring them.

20XXTE: Coming Soon​

3. This is absolutely true but isn’t unique to Melee. If people start playing other games the stories will follow. Melee also doesn’t have the benefit of next-gen graphics, which shouldn’t be a factor but still might be when it comes to future spectating.

4. Members of the Smash Community reiterate fairly often how exceptional the community they belong to and the games they play are, and can you blame them? Confirmation is everywhere. We are in a growth state. Here is a prevailing pattern of logic I encounter when talking to other fanatics about Melee's Cinderella story: The game is close to perfect for playing and spectating -> players and audiences are more passionate -> they are more willing to organize for the community in their free time + large Nintendo install fanbase -> Melee hits player activism critical mass and gains superpowers. This is the logic underpinning "Why Melee Won't Die", and it doesn't paint a complete picture.

The notion that Melee fanatics feel more strongly about their game than other gamers feel about their games is tempting, but narcissistic. Perhaps most fans would never say this out loud or consciously admit it to themselves, but they feel that they love their game the most, and most Melee players I know freely admit it, AND the incredible streak of activism the Melee community has become known for seems to confirm it. Melee would never ask of us, "What have you done for me lately?" We unquestionably love our game and everything else seems to flow from this constant activity born of love. The reason sponsors are really interested in us? We get things done. Where other communities flounder, we succeed. And we look damn good when we succeed because the love is real.

The problem with this narrative, and this is going to hurt some people, is that being an activist for Melee has been made easier and easier over the years, and is particularly easy if you are middle class, which many smashers happen to be. Melee activism is highly facilitated, as HugS notes, by one of the tightest and most highly functioning groups of friends in the world as well as countless passionate TO's, artists, musicians, modders, and competitors. When you donate to Melee related causes, the numbers are fairly small and you can make a tangible difference with a small contribution, but there are also many larger donors among us. You can make a world of difference at locals just driving TV’s or people around. TO’ing is something anyone can get into thanks to readily available online guides written by the best TO’s in the business.

Don’t get me wrong, we wouldn't be where we are without the hard work of all of those individuals, regardless of their economic status, but communities have worked harder than us and fallen short. Passion is not the the deciding factor. If our community hadn't been at the forefront of game capture, video on demand, and social media activism/organization due largely to the socioeconomic status of its members, then the work of those TO's might not have carried us through the dark ages. This is my take on the beautiful accident. I'm not totally discounting the prevailing narrative, but I think this is how it needs to be reframed if we're to identify the real threats to Melee's continued growth.

...which I still haven't really explained, so here's what I'm afraid will limit the growth of Melee this century:

A. The Metagame Isn't As Resilient As We Think

It has been said before that Melee has a hard limit and a soft limit, the theoretical skill cap and peak human performance, respectively. At the moment the metagame on the international stage is particularly diverse, even vibrant. The best character, Fox, does not perform that much better than the other top tiers and players like Axe and aMSa are reimagining the midtiers and getting results. The worst you can say about the character spreads at most major top 8's is that they're healthy. For now, the soft limit indicates that the game is highly unbalanced, but not broken. As much of a joke as it has become, there's a real possibility this won't always be the case due to training tools like 20XX pushing the soft limit higher and higher. What will 10 years bring? 50? What then might the soft limit look like? The only thing one can say with any probability is that it will tend towards the hard limit.

When I say Melee will need to adapt, this is one of the things I'm talking about. Nevermind that half the cast has little tourney representation at all because they're terrible or bugged. If the metagame stales and one or two characters maintain dominance over major placings for too long, then we lose out on the excitement of the all-star Nintendo cast, we lose out on rare and beautiful playstyles and interactions, and ultimately we will lose out on new community members who want a more balanced game. I genuinely don't know if Melee can survive something like this because even if the game could be patched, it probably wouldn't be because:

B. Melee Fanatics Are Obstinate

I once asked a prominent New York City TO whether Melee would benefit from a balance patch. He told me he’d rather have only the top four characters with the current settings than change a single thing to balance the rest of the cast. Melee is too sacred, even its less worthwhile aspects. Without getting into a whole thing about whether L-canceling adds depth, let’s just say that it becomes extremely linear when you realize you can spam light shield before you land without consequence. Rather than being a feature, it’s actually a safety valve. Without L-canceling the hard and soft limits are much closer together and Fox is very easily the best, rather than the character with the best results for the most work. Altering the inputs of Melee is blasphemy, but it may become necessary, because we now know that:

C. Melee Destroys Hands

As a classical guitarist I was lucky that I already knew the importance of taking care before performing lots of sharp, repetitive hand motions. Awareness of this issue and associated precautions are far more widespread than they've ever been. Other games also have this issue, however, because of its low payouts and high barrier to competitive entry, Melee is a high risk, low reward game to get into. This is the most pressing threat to continued growth.

We can't assume that new players will ever see Melee the way we do. Remember, fresh eyes. My generation played casual Melee, so competitive Melee looked like super heroics by comparison. This hasn't been the case for a while. Without recency OR nostalgia to aid us, the games that are more lucrative, less costly investments (in terms of time and health) will win out over Melee to be the big games of eSports. As a standalone, eternal game we are in an extremely unique position vis a vis player acquisition, and Melee has performed more than admirably in attracting new players, but we cannot overcome being a terrible investment, and waiting for our prize pools to make up the difference is some seriously passive play.

D. Nintendo

The wild card. Nintendo doesn't even act as logical as most corporations because their enormous cash reserves allow them to operate in the red for long periods of time. The potential for legal action against us is real, the threat of a divisive remake is real, and the communication between the community and the company has been mixed. Nintendo may ultimately help us more than they hurt, but there's no certainty. They have the power until we/they emancipate Melee.

In Conclusion

I stick to the saying that you don't present a problem without also presenting a solution. To take Melee to the next level, to immediately banish any doubt of its immortality, I propose we beat EVO in 2017 by putting on a bigger Melee tournament than they can (not at the same time, obviously). Beat EVO and we show the world that this game is bigger than the fighting game eSports niche it has settled into. The Melee community hasn't gotten together to do something really big in a while, which leads to:

E. Community Complacency

It hasn't happened yet, but I've seen signs. It's great to reflect on our accomplishments, to take pride in our victories, but we do that enough already and in order to keep signifying to the world and our sponsors that we're still the can-do community, we need to keep doing. Smashers are putting the sweat of their prime years into maintaining this dynamo, but they aren't enough to keep growing it by themselves. The only way Melee gets its century is if more TO's step up, build communities, replace the old guard, populate the world with new Melee players so that when Super Smash Con, or whatever becomes of Apex, or a brand new national series start their booking process, they're booking for 2,000 entrants, even 3,000. Once again, the only tested and proven method for keeping Melee alive through tough times is having an informed and active community ready to go on a moment's notice. Times aren't so tough now, so let's show the world what we can really do. We just have to watch out for:

F. Top Player Burnout

I'm pretty sure that's the next level. Let me know why I'm wrong below.

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This piece is purely the opinion of its author, and does not reflect the position of Smashboards or its affiliates. Additional shoutouts to NPR|Willie for his eyeballs, SmashCapps for taking an interest, and the whole NOLA crew.

 

good job guys, whining about the title w/o discussing its valid points and argument

what a great community.......

I did discuss its "argument", and it was piss poor and lacked enough substance to back up all its claims. People are complaining about the title because this editorial is nothing but what the title is: A statement.

Now go back to Smash 4, Mewtwo, because you suck in Melee.

 

Now go back to Smash 4, Mewtwo, because you suck in Melee.

OK well this thread has officially gone down the toilet.............

and i still play melee btw. love both games. Hate to see the communities taking cheap shots at each other

 

The people that actually are taking this guy's words seriously are stupid beyond repair. None of this journalist tool's "points" actually supply evidence, there are nothing but statements with no substance to back it up. You say "Melee Destroys Hands", and then give no evidence as to why it destroys hands, and why it's an issue that can't be fixed. You say "The Metagame isn't As Resilient as We Think", and not tell us why that is the case. This makes it come off as a worthless clickbait post which, frankly, is truly all that this article is.

The only valid thing I got from this was that the future of Melee relies on what the newer players do in order to keep the game moving forward, but that's a "well no **** Sherlock" kind of answer that doesn't require any deep thinking to realize. So there goes your only credibility.

I can't imagine what this idiot says about other topics if this is the trash that is being put on the front page of Smashboards.

proof melee destroys hands: http://smashboards.com/threads/koreandj-parts-with-team-liquid-retires-from-smash.418909/

 

OK well this thread has officially gone down the toilet.............

and i still play melee btw. love both games. Hate to see the communities taking cheap shots at each other

I wasn't taking shots at you, I was just saying that Mewtwo sucks in Melee, and your name is Mewtwo, so I just took your name and used it to screw around with you, because Mewtwo is way better in Smash 4. And you do know that Mewtwo sucks in Melee, right?

 

I wasn't taking shots at you, I was just saying that Mewtwo sucks in Melee, and your name is Mewtwo, so I just took your name and used it to screw around with you, because Mewtwo is way better in Smash 4. And you do know that Mewtwo sucks in Melee, right?

i thought you where saying mewtwo as in my name. my b

 

The people that actually are taking this guy's words seriously are stupid beyond repair. None of this journalist tool's "points" actually supply evidence, there are nothing but statements with no substance to back it up. You say "Melee Destroys Hands", and then give no evidence as to why it destroys hands, and why it's an issue that can't be fixed. You say "The Metagame isn't As Resilient as We Think", and not tell us why that is the case. This makes it come off as a worthless clickbait post which, frankly, is truly all that this article is.

The only valid thing I got from this was that the future of Melee relies on what the newer players do in order to keep the game moving forward, but that's a "well no **** Sherlock" kind of answer that doesn't require any deep thinking to realize. So there goes your only credibility.

I can't imagine what this idiot says about other topics if this is the trash that is being put on the front page of Smashboards.

I'm afraid you might not have a complete understanding of what an Op Ed is. I'm positive explaining it to you would be a waste of time. I'm a tool? Really? I don't know why your reaction is so hateful, but I'll humor you with some players who have been compromised by hand injury: Hax has had multiple surgeries and is on and off indefinite hiatus, KDJ had to retire again because of his hands, M2K complains constantly (about everything sometimes, so ymmv), Ken has said on stream it hurts him to practice so he has to limit it severely, Fiction switched to Marth to preserve his hands, AndrewWaljt (former netplay top 3) stopped playing for three months and then dropped Fox, and those are just the ones this tool knows about that you might know about too. Plenty of local players I've met in NY and LA wear protective gear because they've had stress injuries in the past. No, this isn't an empirical survey. It doesn't mean I made it up.

 

i thought you where saying mewtwo as in my name. my b

No prob. We both love Mewtwo so it's all good.

 

I'm afraid you might not have a complete understanding of what an Op Ed is. I'm positive explaining it to you would be a waste of time. I'm a tool? Really? I don't know why your reaction is so hateful, but I'll humor you with some players who have been compromised by hand injury: Hax has had multiple surgeries and is on and off indefinite hiatus, KDJ had to retire again because of his hands, M2K complains constantly (about everything sometimes, so ymmv), Ken has said on stream it hurts him to practice so he has to limit it severely, Fiction switched to Marth to preserve his hands, AndrewWaljt (former netplay top 3) stopped playing for three months and then dropped Fox, and those are just the ones this tool knows about that you might know about too. Plenty of local players I've met in NY and LA wear protective gear because they've had stress injuries in the past. No, this isn't an empirical survey. It doesn't mean I made it up.

Oh, you're the one that made this? I thought this was someone else's and you were just posting it for him. Not that it matters that much or changes my opinion. Either way, you should have put these examples in the article itself, that way you wouldn't have to waste your precious time talking to me.

Nothing personal, though.

 

As much as I love Melee, there has to be some point where we move on. There isn't much we haven't already seen. It created so many good memories for the smash community, and I hate to say it, but the game is getting repetitive, with only The Big Five winning majors, and every local annihilated by a fox main. Eventually, if Melee does continue, we're going to reach 20XX.

 

Basically, yes.

I remembered that controversy lol. And now we know why we'll never see the original Mario Party on the Virtual Console.

 

Melee will die eventually, but it will take a LONG time to die. A slow, but not that painful death.

 

As much as I love Melee, there has to be some point where we move on. There isn't much we haven't already seen. It created so many good memories for the smash community, and I hate to say it, but the game is getting repetitive, with only The Big Five winning majors, and every local annihilated by a fox main. Eventually, if Melee does continue, we're going to reach 20XX.

There is plenty that we haven't seen, and locals aren't getting dominated by fox mains, in fact its locals where we see more character variety. If you're gonna say that you love Melee, then gather an ounce of knowledge first, because you sound like it's been 2 years since you've followed the scene and you've moved on to Smash 4. And if that's the case, then I don't see why you even care anymore.

 

I don't think Melee will ever completely die because, if AGDQ has taught me anything, you will always have people strongly dedicated to even the worst games out there. If you can have speed running groups dedicated to Bubsy the Bobcat, people will keep playing Melee. If people can still make Street Fighter II tournaments after nearly 25 years, I don't see why Melee can't. Sure, it might just dissolve into a niche game but I doubt it'll ever be completely dropped. It obviously won't be an EVO center piece forever but you'll probably always be able to find a tournament if you look hard enough.

 

Did a prominent member of the Melee community seriously suggest Melee HD as a possible way to rejuvenate this game? In October of THIS year? The schism that would be made from an updated Melee would be enormous. The Old Guard will stick with the old game because that's where their money is, while the newer, brighter eyed players flock to the new, interesting alternative that's available on consoles that are still commercially available. We would see a repeat of 2008-2009 in terms of adversity. No, the best that we can hope for is a direct port of the game to the Wii U or NX eshop as part of a line of gamecube classics. No, it won't instantly become the tournament standard, but at least we'll get less people turning to emulators for personal practice.

This article makes a good point about Melee being a "middle class" esport. We prided ourselves as being cheap to get into, only requiring dusty crts, your aunt's kids' Wii, and hopefully a non corrupted gamecube memory card, expensive game disc, and some controllers. But If you've got some interest in the MOBA scene, then all you need is a family computer with at least 2007 Low Tier graphics and internet connection. Every household has these, but not all of them have outdated gaming console hardware, why would they? There's no comparison in terms of accessibility.

There's nothing wrong with Melee facing its own mortality. It doesn't make you weak to realize you'll have moved on in 5-10 years barring some miracle like becoming one of the best players in your region.

 

M3lee w1ll nev3r d1e b3cau5e 0f n0st4lgic ppl c4n't acc3pt th4t s4kurai w1ll n3ver make another game like melee. Melee is the oldest esport that people play. You don't see people playing cod 4 or halo 2. Smashers are too nostalgic. #facts
And this is starting to become like complex news. Reporting on anything. Take this L
Edit: I like how reason 2 says "true successor". Definitely a melee elitist.

Comparing Melee to anything released after is like comparing Street fighter to tekken. Melee has two techniques that were completely removed from latter installments. Until you can actually L-cancel and wave dash you really can't grasp how different the games are.

 

Did a prominent member of the Melee community seriously suggest Melee HD as a possible way to rejuvenate this game? In October of THIS year? The schism that would be made from an updated Melee would be enormous. The Old Guard will stick with the old game because that's where their money is, while the newer, brighter eyed players flock to the new, interesting alternative that's available on consoles that are still commercially available. We would see a repeat of 2008-2009 in terms of adversity. No, the best that we can hope for is a direct port of the game to the Wii U or NX eshop as part of a line of gamecube classics. No, it won't instantly become the tournament standard, but at least we'll get less people turning to emulators for personal practice.

This article makes a good point about Melee being a "middle class" esport. We prided ourselves as being cheap to get into, only requiring dusty crts, your aunt's kids' Wii, and hopefully a non corrupted gamecube memory card, expensive game disc, and some controllers. But If you've got some interest in the MOBA scene, then all you need is a family computer with at least 2007 Low Tier graphics and internet connection. Every household has these, but not all of them have outdated gaming console hardware, why would they? There's no comparison in terms of accessibility.

There's nothing wrong with Melee facing its own mortality. It doesn't make you weak to realize you'll have moved on in 5-10 years barring some miracle like becoming one of the best players in your region.

I don't understand the difference between Melee HD and a direct port. What would be the difference?

 

I don't understand the difference between Melee HD and a direct port. What would be the difference?

Melee HD would be a version of Melee that is updated and released on a current generation console. And as both articles admit, the melee community would not survive a patch to the game. A rebalanced roster sounds nice, but it's a new game at that point.

 

I don't understand the difference between Melee HD and a direct port. What would be the difference?

Different Consoles, might not even be able to use a gamecube control with it over a Classic Controller Pro.

Might have one version released universally, like PAL released instead of NTSC in the states.

 

Is aid it once, I'll say it again.

Melee can survive on its own and every other future or even past Smash game don't have to depend on it.

But if Melee dies, it'll be by how its hard to change the status quo is some cases and how out of date it seems. The community needs to evolve more and hold itself back by being rooted in the underground too much. Expand and grow and you don't need to move on to another game to do so


I ask the question

Does you seriously want Melee HD or anything similar to it?

Because if it even adds any small changes like using the PAL version's balance, using other controller options, small tweaks to the engine and/or 100% compatible with HDTVs, would anyone accept it and go with the future? Hell it took years for people to accept Project M as what it is and even Melee players look down at it for being "Melee for casuals"

In the words of Vincent McMahon:
"Nintendo/FGC/Smash 4 didn't screw Melee, Melee screwed Melee"

 

I mean, it's cool if they wanna keep it going. SF3 still has a community. Marvel 2 still has a community. But they're very small and done in the background now over the big games with big sponsors and company backing. Melee will shrink into the background in the next 5-10 years.

 

Comparing Melee to anything released after is like comparing Street fighter to tekken. Melee has two techniques that were completely removed from latter installments. Until you can actually L-cancel and wave dash you really can't grasp how different the games are.

Melee is better competitive wise but sm4sh blows melee out of the water in every category. L cancel and wavedash are extremely overrated. Pm could be bigger than melee because more viable characters instead of space animals, less clones but Nintendo destroyed them. Sm4sh is the best smash
#FACTS

 

Although we all know Melee will someday die, it's hard to seriously discuss because I don't think most of us can picture it happening in the foreseeable future. Simply playing the game competitively usually leads to one or two friends picking it up, and then their friends try to learn, and then their friends, and so on an so forth. Certainly it's not the case with everyone, but it still leads to exponential growth for the community. If left to its own devices, the game will only grow and grow, even as old players eventually leave the scene. I can't see the game going anywhere until an outside force intervenes.

People won't care about the potential hand problems. Whether it's a problem for most players or not, the general demographic for the competitive scene has a tendency to not take those kind of things seriously. I highly doubt it will be a factor.

I think the only thing the game has to worry about is Nintendo releasing Melee HD, which would likely be more based on the PAL version of Melee, although who knows what else Nintendo might do to it. I doubt they'd try to directly interfere with the competitive community via legal pressure given the situation that happened at EVO 2013. The only thing we should have to worry about is an outside influence causing a rift in the community, and even that might not fracture the community enough if community leaders come together for decisions.

 

There is plenty that we haven't seen, and locals aren't getting dominated by fox mains, in fact its locals where we see more character variety. If you're gonna say that you love Melee, then gather an ounce of knowledge first, because you sound like it's been 2 years since you've followed the scene and you've moved on to Smash 4. And if that's the case, then I don't see why you even care anymore.

Here's another thing that hurts melee's survivability. People like you.
A lot of melee's fanbase is great, but so much of it is TERRIBLE. The thousands of people who say "tr4sh", people who are rude and judgemental to people who play one character or another or are "scrubs". I know that that isn't the majority of fans but it's seriously alienating.

 

Melee died before. It was pretty much dead in the early years of brawl. Brawl was drawing more players than melee. When brawl started to die melee grew. If melee doesn't get an HD remix it's going to die. Even if it does it'll probably still die. Smash 4 draws more than than melee. Also I don't think that CRT are going to hold out much longer.

 

It's ridiculous how true the love of the game is

 

Just a correction, Nintendo couldn't authorize PM on its own because it doesn't own all of the IP in the game. Konami, Sega, The Pokemon Company (Yes it is separate from Nintendo and has at least joint ownership of Pokemon and have denied Nintendo use of Pokemon in ways they didn't like, woolly world costumes.) and maybe more would need to all be contacted.

If any one of them says no a lawsuit would be required because if Nintendo can be shown to be aware of PM's existence then they have to defend thier copyright or thier IP would lose a lot of legal protection because that would be precedent of them not defending thier IP.

Ignoring PM was the only thing Nintendo could do and I guess it got to the point where they couldn't deny PM's existence anymore so they gave the Dev team a warning that thier hand would forced if a new release came out. (I don't know the details but that is what it looks like to me from the pmdt posts.)

 

Melee HD is not happening. Get that through your thick skulls. Delusional fanboys.

 

I thought the Melee HD remake was already confirmed for NX?

 

I honestly never can tell if you're a would-be troll struggling for attention, or a deranged Melee fan with an unhealthy obsession for the game.

it's the latter. his big talk is apparently so bad, someone mentioned him on TVTropes, with the label of "Internet Tough Guy".

and if you don't believe me, go to Smash's YMMV page, and scroll down to "Complacent Gaming Syndrome".

as for the topic at hand... this would be one of those cases where I salute the person who wrote this, there was not a doubt in my mind that this article will be met with some backdraft. I used to be on the side of Brawl in the whole Melee VS Brawl debacle, I developed a much more neutral position when I got a rough view of the other perspective through Project M.

the point I will agree with most is the "activism" bit. though it would be fair to admit while a good chunk of Melee's vocal fanbase is allegedly known to stand on the border between "Passionate" and "Fanatical", that does not mean the other games don't have such folks, either. it's the clashes between these "loyal players" that can sometimes leave me questioning the fanbase at large. what's the benefit of instigating these arguments? neither side is willing to budge, and newer players will most likely see these arguments and pick a side without really seeing both perspectives of the argument... I have my own opinions toward Melee, I'll play it casually, but I'm not going to compete in tournament. I'll stick to Smash 4 and PM, because I see something in their roster that suits my style of play.

 

(Note: this following criticism is aimed at the above post, not HugS' response)

Melee is going to stay around until a fighting game comes and fits into the same sub-sub genre of platformer-centric fighting games with a similar style.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl/Smash 4 are practically different sub-genres of games, hence the minimal community overlap as well as the totally different gameplay. The Smash development team heads seem comfortable in that Brawl/Smash 4 sub-genre, so I imagine they'll stay there for at least another decade or so.

Melee's greatest asset, above all else, is that it is entirely different than any other fighting game or game out there that is played competitively, and that said difference makes it better instead of worse (which is the case a lot of the time with eSports titles). This means that even though Melee as a game will "remain the same," by staying the same it still remains different.

Even there, while the video game itself remains the same, the level at which it is played, the way the competitors play the game, the competitors, and everything else competitively certainly does not stay the same. The rapid evolution of Melee has been something somewhat constant, impressive, and mind-numbing. Just compare 3 years ago at the top to now; it's an insane level up. You don't see that kind of change in most eSports titles let alone sports, especially with the same rulesets.

\\

Anyways, on top my question... why are we talking about Melee dying now of all times?

Keep in mind Melee is:
-The biggest competitive fighting game (until Street Fighter V launches).
-Has got great eSports backing.
-More than 10 players have major sponsors
-Many successful huge streams and streamers.
-An insane amount of "grassroot" fighting game and Smash tournament appearances yearly (we're talking 200 plus people).
-Tons of major eSports companies sponsoring or running events.
-Got a Summit event with hugely positive reception and ratings with sequel events imminent.\
-Debuted at a few new big events this year, all with great attendance numbers.
-Appearing at Dreamhacks events now, and probably will soon be a part of an ESL event expansion, leading to further part of and had success at ESL events, with more of those and other eSports event appearances to follow.

I don't play Starcraft 2, but I can't imagine Starcraft 2 players and community figureheads constantly have to hear "when will Starcraft 2 die? When will Starcraft 2 die?" like a group of paranoid smashers do.

People are now talking about Melee being absent at EVO, and we're honestly at the point where EVO doesn't matter. ESL is so much bigger than EVO that it is hilarious to compare the two, especially if Melee gets on any sort of circuit. That and events like The Big House, SmashCon, and Genesis are so huge they might as well be EVO level of people there, only without all the non-Smash fighting games.

Melee has at least 5-10 years of eSports mainstream acceptance ahead, barring a Melee HD "replacing it." After that, it could grow, stay the same size, or shrink, but it won't go away. There's no signs that competitive Melee will drop any time soon.

\\

As for people complaining "Melee is too old, too hard to get into, and too repetitive" baseball, boxing, and associate football have been the same for over a century, those sports are slow, incredibly repetitive, and very predictable when watching as a viewer, yet they remain as popular as ever. It also takes an insane level of skill to get to the real lowest level of competitive play professionally in them like Melee, yet new stars still keep showing up

Why is all this true?

1. There's always new wrinkles, new stars, new methods, or re-imagined or reintegrated methods. If you can't tell the difference from say The Moon's Marth to PewPewU's, or Armada's Fox from Mango's Fox, you gotta be completely blind. Not only are different players using the same player very different, the way they evolve and change, like how say Derek Jeter went from an infield hit guy to being able to hit in both sides of the outfield to be a premium shortstop hitter in baseball, keeps even the players changing. There's also an invisible power ranking of sorts always, and an ebb and flow to how the game goes from stock to stock, set to set, tournament to tournament, day to day, and month to month.

Melee had 5 different players win the top 8 or so events in 2015, and it had over 20 different players make those top 8's. We saw the "who is #1 debate" change answers at least once a month, players struggles, players drop and pick up new and old characters alike, hot streaks galore, technical issues, character and player match ups galore, and the game never lacked storylines to go along with close, competitive, and intriguing sets, as well as the arrival of a myriad of new faces (Leffen becoming a God/the ultimate atheist, ChuDat's unbelievable EVO run, Armada becoming a Fox first player).

2. Additionally, Melee, like baseball, associate soccer, and yes even boxing, has never been technically entirely mastered. In fact, the top players haven't even gotten close. Strategically there's still tons of holes, and many top players still have insane amount of holes in their games.

Some comments here act like Melee has been pushed as far as it can, and I am seriously wondering if they have ever booted a Melee disc up. It's so clear as day there's a lot of places to go.

3. The top players are all huge draws and huge names, and the next level of players right under the top 6 are right there. These players can win at any moment, as we saw all the Gods but Armada lose multiple sets in majors this year to non-Gods. And before anyone says "dominance is bad," yes total dominance, like (going to back to sports references) the Celtics winning every NBA title for over a decade straight is bad, but Melee doesn't have that. Melee has imperfect dominance of 5 players from roughly 2011-2014, and in 2015 we saw a 6th player added to that mix. This is actually a good thing.

The NBA exploded when the Celtics, 76er's, and Lakers dominated in the 80's. The NBA then got bigger when the Pistons, Rockets, and Bulls replaced them in the end of the 80's and the bulk of the 90's. After that, the NBA grew even more when the Lakers and Spurs replaced them in the 00's. The thing is.. imperfect dominance sells better in competition than anything else, especially with turnover and changes within the few imperfectly dominant groups/competitors. This has been the case since the Five Gods era started in 2011 or 2012 to now, and it will likely always be the case going forward so long as people claw and scratch to maintain their spot and/or go up in some sort of rank or placement in tournaments. It's a fact of the competition.

Wobbles, Axe, Shroomed, MacD, Westballz, Lucky, Plup, aMSa, Silent Wolf, Duck, SFAT, PewPewU, and a few other players have taken sets off of these Gods in the last year and a half. Many more came close, and more players will soon follow and challenge more. There is very much a chance of huge amounts of turnover with a top God or 2 or even 3 or 4 dropping off results-wise, like a perennial World Cup top 4 team failing to make it past the group stage (of the top 16).

These points above are some of the appeals of competition, and it is something competitive Melee captures magically.

\\

So, instead of relying on hyperbolic phrasing and using such exaggerating verbs and nouns dear author, why not try to note what to fix what you think is wrong with Melee's competitive health?

Or, instead of using the phrasing that "Melee Will Die," why not reconstruct it accurately portray something close to an actual message (such as "Melee long-term is going to struggle without *insert something here*!", or "Melee might struggle in the gaming climate in the coming decades") to communicate something effective rather than a fake doomsday post that everyone scoffs at.

By sticking to this sort of message additionally, said post didn't make, defend, or even assert a real well laid out point. It said some things that were intelligent in small pieces, but nothing that will stick in people's minds at an intellectual level, especially with the article reading like something out of 2013 after Nintendo blocked Melee EVO recording, which seems to be the time period this post is stuck in.

That lack of timeliness (recent references), a scale of time, and any sort of current real doom of any sort that will lead to Melee's decline really made this article... seem sort of pointless.

In other words, the whole counter point was a big batch of worthless nothing that was a chance for the author to impress and make a point, but instead they didn't, and instead rambled on about the past (likely like what I did with my sports analogies).

 

I thought the Melee HD remake was already confirmed for NX?

Lol fake. Why would sakurai make a game with 1000 clones? And if he did, he'll remove I cancel and wavedashing.

 

Lol fake. Why would sakurai make a game with 1000 clones? And if he did, he'll remove I cancel and wavedashing.

Just trolling bro, sorry.
I think Nintendo has to start to organize Melee world championships with prelimenarys in the US, Europe and Japan.

 

Well it's a good thing the author of this piece did that!

My comment was more of a general statement, (I see the "Death of Melee" discussion often) it wasn't specifically directed at the author.

 

B. Melee Fanatics Are Obstinate

That. I think the Melee community is blind in its narcissism. I think a new Smash game with Melee physics and mechanics but improved balance would be way better. Or just Melee HD with balance changes, bug fixes and what not.

But the Melee crowd would reject it even though it is "better". That is why i don't see Melee HD happening. Not changing anything would be a dumb idea, but changing things makes the people calling for it mad.

 

"A. The Metagame Isn't As Resilient As We Think"

Some day...SD Remix will take over. As it can now be loaded via memory cards and 20XX Hackpack supports it as well.

 

I would personally love if balancing and updating the game was acceptable by the community, but people are afraid of change. Having a select few top tiers that alienate the rest of the cast on such a level is a flaw in itself.

We even have strides from the fantastic Melee modding community like SD Remix that keeps the vanilla top tiers in-tact while buffing the lower tiers making them more viable and creating a more diverse, depthful game. It's even possible to use mods via memory cards now on any stock cube, but the community thinks Melee is untouchable.

Hell, if Nintendo rereleased Melee with balance changes there would be a riot by the community for touching the "perfection" that Melee is to them disregarding it still will play like Melee and it'd breathe more life into the game, and give us more compatibility with modern displays.

Melee is great, and my favorite Smash game, but it is far from perfect. We should be willing to adapt and change if we really love the Melee style gameplay.

 

Melee will not die. It's the reason why competitive Smash 4 is a thing. Hell, it's the reason why our community are in constant flame wars.
>The whole "Melee Vs. Smash 4/Brawl" debate

Melee, at least how i see it, is a walking corpse. The game isn't as deep as everyone claims it is. I sincerely hope it dies out sooner rather than later.

 

I sincerely hope it dies out sooner rather than later.

I sincerely hope people such as this who wish the death of a game to stop posting as they offer no contributions to our scene outside of giving us nothing but detrimental toxic behavior.

Honestly, your word has no meaning here if you wish a scene to die.

 

"A. The Metagame Isn't As Resilient As We Think"

Some day...SD Remix will take over. As it can now be loaded via memory cards and 20XX Hackpack supports it as well.

I actually wouldn't mind this at all.

 

(Note: this following criticism is aimed at the above post, not HugS' response)

Melee is going to stay around until a fighting game comes and fits into the same sub-sub genre of platformer-centric fighting games with a similar style.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl/Smash 4 are practically different sub-genres of games, hence the minimal community overlap as well as the totally different gameplay. The Smash development team heads seem comfortable in that Brawl/Smash 4 sub-genre, so I imagine they'll stay there for at least another decade or so.

Melee's greatest asset, above all else, is that it is entirely different than any other fighting game or game out there that is played competitively, and that said difference makes it better instead of worse (which is the case a lot of the time with eSports titles). This means that even though Melee as a game will "remain the same," by staying the same it still remains different.

Even there, while the video game itself remains the same, the level at which it is played, the way the competitors play the game, the competitors, and everything else competitively certainly does not stay the same. The rapid evolution of Melee has been something somewhat constant, impressive, and mind-numbing. Just compare 3 years ago at the top to now; it's an insane level up. You don't see that kind of change in most eSports titles let alone sports, especially with the same rulesets.

\\

Anyways, on top my question... why are we talking about Melee dying now of all times?

Keep in mind Melee is:
-The biggest competitive fighting game (until Street Fighter V launches).
-Has got great eSports backing.
-More than 10 players have major sponsors
-Many successful huge streams and streamers.
-An insane amount of "grassroot" fighting game and Smash tournament appearances yearly (we're talking 200 plus people).
-Tons of major eSports companies sponsoring or running events.
-Got a Summit event with hugely positive reception and ratings with sequel events imminent.\
-Debuted at a few new big events this year, all with great attendance numbers.
-Appearing at Dreamhacks events now, and probably will soon be a part of an ESL event expansion, leading to further part of and had success at ESL events, with more of those and other eSports event appearances to follow.

I don't play Starcraft 2, but I can't imagine Starcraft 2 players and community figureheads constantly have to hear "when will Starcraft 2 die? When will Starcraft 2 die?" like a group of paranoid smashers do.

People are now talking about Melee being absent at EVO, and we're honestly at the point where EVO doesn't matter. ESL is so much bigger than EVO that it is hilarious to compare the two, especially if Melee gets on any sort of circuit. That and events like The Big House, SmashCon, and Genesis are so huge they might as well be EVO level of people there, only without all the non-Smash fighting games.

Melee has at least 5-10 years of eSports mainstream acceptance ahead, barring a Melee HD "replacing it." After that, it could grow, stay the same size, or shrink, but it won't go away. There's no signs that competitive Melee will drop any time soon.

\\

As for people complaining "Melee is too old, too hard to get into, and too repetitive" baseball, boxing, and associate football have been the same for over a century, those sports are slow, incredibly repetitive, and very predictable when watching as a viewer, yet they remain as popular as ever. It also takes an insane level of skill to get to the real lowest level of competitive play professionally in them like Melee, yet new stars still keep showing up

Why is all this true?

1. There's always new wrinkles, new stars, new methods, or re-imagined or reintegrated methods. If you can't tell the difference from say The Moon's Marth to PewPewU's, or Armada's Fox from Mango's Fox, you gotta be completely blind. Not only are different players using the same player very different, the way they evolve and change, like how say Derek Jeter went from an infield hit guy to being able to hit in both sides of the outfield to be a premium shortstop hitter in baseball, keeps even the players changing. There's also an invisible power ranking of sorts always, and an ebb and flow to how the game goes from stock to stock, set to set, tournament to tournament, day to day, and month to month.

Melee had 5 different players win the top 8 or so events in 2015, and it had over 20 different players make those top 8's. We saw the "who is #1 debate" change answers at least once a month, players struggles, players drop and pick up new and old characters alike, hot streaks galore, technical issues, character and player match ups galore, and the game never lacked storylines to go along with close, competitive, and intriguing sets, as well as the arrival of a myriad of new faces (Leffen becoming a God/the ultimate atheist, ChuDat's unbelievable EVO run, Armada becoming a Fox first player).

2. Additionally, Melee, like baseball, associate soccer, and yes even boxing, has never been technically entirely mastered. In fact, the top players haven't even gotten close. Strategically there's still tons of holes, and many top players still have insane amount of holes in their games.

Some comments here act like Melee has been pushed as far as it can, and I am seriously wondering if they have ever booted a Melee disc up. It's so clear as day there's a lot of places to go.

3. The top players are all huge draws and huge names, and the next level of players right under the top 6 are right there. These players can win at any moment, as we saw all the Gods but Armada lose multiple sets in majors this year to non-Gods. And before anyone says "dominance is bad," yes total dominance, like (going to back to sports references) the Celtics winning every NBA title for over a decade straight is bad, but Melee doesn't have that. Melee has imperfect dominance of 5 players from roughly 2011-2014, and in 2015 we saw a 6th player added to that mix. This is actually a good thing.

The NBA exploded when the Celtics, 76er's, and Lakers dominated in the 80's. The NBA then got bigger when the Pistons, Rockets, and Bulls replaced them in the end of the 80's and the bulk of the 90's. After that, the NBA grew even more when the Lakers and Spurs replaced them in the 00's. The thing is.. imperfect dominance sells better in competition than anything else, especially with turnover and changes within the few imperfectly dominant groups/competitors. This has been the case since the Five Gods era started in 2011 or 2012 to now, and it will likely always be the case going forward so long as people claw and scratch to maintain their spot and/or go up in some sort of rank or placement in tournaments. It's a fact of the competition.

Wobbles, Axe, Shroomed, MacD, Westballz, Lucky, Plup, aMSa, Silent Wolf, Duck, SFAT, PewPewU, and a few other players have taken sets off of these Gods in the last year and a half. Many more came close, and more players will soon follow and challenge more. There is very much a chance of huge amounts of turnover with a top God or 2 or even 3 or 4 dropping off results-wise, like a perennial World Cup top 4 team failing to make it past the group stage (of the top 16).

These points above are some of the appeals of competition, and it is something competitive Melee captures magically.

\\

So, instead of relying on hyperbolic phrasing and using such exaggerating verbs and nouns dear author, why not try to note what to fix what you think is wrong with Melee's competitive health?

Or, instead of using the phrasing that "Melee Will Die," why not reconstruct it accurately portray something close to an actual message (such as "Melee long-term is going to struggle without *insert something here*!", or "Melee might struggle in the gaming climate in the coming decades") to communicate something effective rather than a fake doomsday post that everyone scoffs at.

By sticking to this sort of message additionally, said post didn't make, defend, or even assert a real well laid out point. It said some things that were intelligent in small pieces, but nothing that will stick in people's minds at an intellectual level, especially with the article reading like something out of 2013 after Nintendo blocked Melee EVO recording, which seems to be the time period this post is stuck in.

That lack of timeliness (recent references), a scale of time, and any sort of current real doom of any sort that will lead to Melee's decline really made this article... seem sort of pointless.

In other words, the whole counter point was a big batch of worthless nothing that was a chance for the author to impress and make a point, but instead they didn't, and instead rambled on about the past (likely like what I did with my sports analogies).

Not gonna lie, the moment you started to compare Melee to baseball and boxing is the moment I stopped reading.

You can play boxing with nothing but your able body, if need be.

Baseball requires drawing lines in dirt, a round object, and a large stick.

The reason physical sports have endured, and are what they are, is in no small part to them being able to be broken down to such bare essentials. Little kids can play baseball with their dad for fun, to build relationships... all kinds of angles I could go with this.

Melee needs electronics. Outdated tech. You control it with your hands, but unlike actual sports, physical health is not a prerequisite for doing well at the game. It's becoming more common that people just can't play Melee for all these years without ****ing up their hands big time. Then there's the TVs that aren't even made anymore. Then there's the need for the TVs themselves. You have to play Melee indoors for fear of ruining the expensive and ever-rarer equipment. Any kind of re-imagining, or repackaging of Melee would be met with nothing but arguments, because Melee is a mess. Melee has problems that should be fixed, that can be fixed without changing how the game's fundamentals work... but it's just going to make another splinter.

People thought PM would take Brawl and turn it into a "better Melee," but in the end, PM has just stayed PM. Most of the Melee players didn't cross over to it. PM has no future, anyway, because it's an unofficial mod that Nintendo or any one of a dozen other companies could feasibly destroy with litigation - and be within their legal rights to do so, if it suited their own self-interests. PM is illegitimate. It always will be, because Nintendo can't just "buy it out," even if they wanted to.

Why do I bring up PM? Because inevitably, the topic of mods of Melee come up. It's the same damn thing. An unofficial mod that is playing chicken with destiny, that will never be fully embraced as a successor, because it isn't an official game.

People made Rivals of Aether as a way of creating an original IP with Melee-like gameplay, but in the end, RoA is still RoA. It's a different game with different characters, appeal, fans... another splinter faction.

Melee won't necessarily die. Eventually it will become marginalized. It will fade away. A remnant may remain, but it won't stay like 2015 forever. There is no way for the fans to take Melee into their own hands in a way that can stand up. Melee is not ours. Melee belongs to the people who made it. Even if they re-released it, it will never totally replace the original.

Personally, I don't care about Melee anymore. I stopped watching this year. I stopped playing about 8 years ago. I don't care if Melee continues on for another 20 years, or if it dies off, or whatever. Smash Bros., to me, is more than L cancelling, more than the beauty of Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield's ugly pitch-black background, more than the top players, more than Fox McCloud.

Smash Bros., to me, is about using beloved Nintendo characters in a platforming-fighting game where you launch people off-screen to defeat them. I want the version of that game that is the prettiest, the most fun, and which has the characters and features that most appeal to me. For me, right now, that is Smash 4. For many, it is Melee. Good for those people. Those people are not my enemies, but are like distant cousins. People who see Smash 4 as the enemy to Melee are a big part of why I don't give a **** about Melee anymore. Virtually no one in the Smash 4 scene is worried about Melee diminishing Smash 4. Our game has 58 characters, is receiving regular balance patches, is compatible with modern technology, looks gorgeous, is fun to play, is exciting to watch, and it does not have as steep of a physical dexterity bar that you must cross to play. The Smash 4 scene right now is pretty much only optimism. In 5 years, who can say? Maybe in 5 years I won't care. I'll be 35 then.

I've rambled a lot myself. Look, the TL;DR is, Melee is nothing like Baseball or any other physical sport. It does not exist on the physical plane! It is immaterial. One solid EMP goes off in your country, and suddenly there's no more Melee ever again. Same thing with a big enough solar flare. When the lights go out, though, you can still play baseball. You can still punch people and box. Yeah, you'd be more worried about starving to death, but that's beside the point. Physical competition is on a separate, more pure level. You can compare esports with sports for comparison's sake, but at the end of the day, one will live on in perpetuity and one won't.