I do believe that the AT's are out in total. They have made the game easier to access so even new players were able to do what were once called Advance Tactics, but now they are not glitches that need skill to preform. That being the case they would no longer be considered Advanced Tactics, right? I have heard reports that Wavedashing is out, yet I've seen video of Snake seemingly wavedashing. This means that the Tactics as we did them are different, changed in such a way that you previous advantage will be less effective and short lived. Besides AT's aren't that useful in a full on Brawl. What I do think is that Brawl may have it's own glitches that produce differing crawling, standing and aerial tactics...
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Melee Had AT's Brawl has something else...
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Mama
Smash Ace
Ok everyone lets keep this thread open. I'm going to probably be laying down the law all throughout this thread for a while. That said I'm editing this post with my response. Try not to flame....
EDIT : Here we go.
For starters advanced techniques are not glitches.
Short hopping : not jumping to the peak. This enables faster aerial attacks
Fast Falling : Pressing down when in the air to fall fast and land on the ground and reduce air time so that you can continue to combo.
L-canceling : Dating back to Smash64. Pressing L or Z to reduce the lag time after an aerial.
Put that together and you have the fundamental advanced technique Shffling. Its something everyone can do but its also something that doesn't occur to the casual players. The people who call themselves advanced players are the ones that discovered this because they sought a way to speed up their game play and make comboing more efficient and deadly. That is not a glitch. That is something still present in Brawl and that is one of the few things that will separate casual players from the advanced players.
Crouch Canceling : Pressing down to crouch and reduce being knocked back by attacks. It can also be used to stop dashing. In Brawl there is evidence of a new advanced technique currently dubbed Dash Braking that seems much more efficient.
Mind Games : A mind game is basically getting inside your opponents head. Example.. When you run toward a scrub they will (most often) either block or roll behind you. Knowing this you can run toward a scrub and crouch cancel to stop your run and trick them into doing just what you want. When they block grab them and punish them. When they roll behind smash attack or punish them in another way. Reading your opponent is an advanced technique. That is not a glitch and that is something that will be present in Brawl
More to come.
EDIT 2: The only thing really removed from Brawl was Wave dashing but the reason it was removed was because the way we dodge is now different. It is based on momentum now and not our own influence. The new physics engine Brawl has a lot of momentum based things in it. That is why wave dashing is not possible as we know it now. Advanced play requires more skill than anything. Thinking that it takes more skill to play without them is an oxymoron. Its basically saying "If you use no skill that requires more skill". That simply doesn't compute.
Yes there are things that will be made easier for casual players but does this put them on the same level as advanced players? No because there are still mental barriers that must first be overcome. Casual players set non existent rules for themselves like thinking edge guarding (hanging on the edge so the other player can't grab it) is cheap. They think Chain grabbing (grabbing and throwing and grabbing again while the other player is stunned which can go on for a long time) is also cheap or unfair. They think that L-canceling is cheap (because they don't bother to try and learn it). Truth is the game does not know the values of "cheap" or "un fair" the game only knows winning and not winning. Advanced players understand that therefore they can say that they play to win and be telling the truth.
Should I go on?
Yes I think I will EDIT : 3
Advanced tactics are more than techniques. They're a state of mind and a level of play. Saying that they aren't effective or that they're different simply doesn't make sense because they are not something that you can measure. In the end Brawl will have a similar sized gap, if not larger, than that in Melee. Yes the ease of use will bring in more players. But not on the competitive level. The competitive level is a standard set by the players. Sakurai can't set a limit to our mind games nor can he dictate the way we evolve a fighting game.
Tactics are the result of adaptation. A move does this. Then I'll do this. You do that and I'll start doing this. You start doing that then I'll counter that by doing this. You're doing that so I'll go back to doing this again. Its a circle of experimentation on what is effective and what is not effective. Moves will have counters made for them. Counters will have counters and the counter's counter will be countered by the original move. Thats the basic formula. I think you get it now. If I see a need to post again I will. Respond
EDIT : Here we go.
For starters advanced techniques are not glitches.
Short hopping : not jumping to the peak. This enables faster aerial attacks
Fast Falling : Pressing down when in the air to fall fast and land on the ground and reduce air time so that you can continue to combo.
L-canceling : Dating back to Smash64. Pressing L or Z to reduce the lag time after an aerial.
Put that together and you have the fundamental advanced technique Shffling. Its something everyone can do but its also something that doesn't occur to the casual players. The people who call themselves advanced players are the ones that discovered this because they sought a way to speed up their game play and make comboing more efficient and deadly. That is not a glitch. That is something still present in Brawl and that is one of the few things that will separate casual players from the advanced players.
Crouch Canceling : Pressing down to crouch and reduce being knocked back by attacks. It can also be used to stop dashing. In Brawl there is evidence of a new advanced technique currently dubbed Dash Braking that seems much more efficient.
Mind Games : A mind game is basically getting inside your opponents head. Example.. When you run toward a scrub they will (most often) either block or roll behind you. Knowing this you can run toward a scrub and crouch cancel to stop your run and trick them into doing just what you want. When they block grab them and punish them. When they roll behind smash attack or punish them in another way. Reading your opponent is an advanced technique. That is not a glitch and that is something that will be present in Brawl
More to come.
EDIT 2: The only thing really removed from Brawl was Wave dashing but the reason it was removed was because the way we dodge is now different. It is based on momentum now and not our own influence. The new physics engine Brawl has a lot of momentum based things in it. That is why wave dashing is not possible as we know it now. Advanced play requires more skill than anything. Thinking that it takes more skill to play without them is an oxymoron. Its basically saying "If you use no skill that requires more skill". That simply doesn't compute.
Yes there are things that will be made easier for casual players but does this put them on the same level as advanced players? No because there are still mental barriers that must first be overcome. Casual players set non existent rules for themselves like thinking edge guarding (hanging on the edge so the other player can't grab it) is cheap. They think Chain grabbing (grabbing and throwing and grabbing again while the other player is stunned which can go on for a long time) is also cheap or unfair. They think that L-canceling is cheap (because they don't bother to try and learn it). Truth is the game does not know the values of "cheap" or "un fair" the game only knows winning and not winning. Advanced players understand that therefore they can say that they play to win and be telling the truth.
Should I go on?
Yes I think I will EDIT : 3
Advanced tactics are more than techniques. They're a state of mind and a level of play. Saying that they aren't effective or that they're different simply doesn't make sense because they are not something that you can measure. In the end Brawl will have a similar sized gap, if not larger, than that in Melee. Yes the ease of use will bring in more players. But not on the competitive level. The competitive level is a standard set by the players. Sakurai can't set a limit to our mind games nor can he dictate the way we evolve a fighting game.
Tactics are the result of adaptation. A move does this. Then I'll do this. You do that and I'll start doing this. You start doing that then I'll counter that by doing this. You're doing that so I'll go back to doing this again. Its a circle of experimentation on what is effective and what is not effective. Moves will have counters made for them. Counters will have counters and the counter's counter will be countered by the original move. Thats the basic formula. I think you get it now. If I see a need to post again I will. Respond
Havokbringer
Smash Lord
*Flames Mama*
Tony_
Smash Ace
Every game has glitches which turn into supposed "AT's". Also, there will be more AT's to discover too when the game is out, putting advanced players in general on a higher playing level than most people.
Silfa
Smash Ace
By "ATs" I thought you meant Assist Trophies. So I was like "wtf, Melee didn't have Assists".
Yeah. o-o.
Yeah. o-o.
NES n00b
Smash Master
It seems to me that most advance players are stuck on keeping the AT's and don't want them to change it even if it is for the better. My feeling is that this was done to actually grow the advance player community by allowing newer advance players to be created and the Melee AT's will be a small part of that.
Tony_
Smash Ace
The most advanced player's can't just play a game. They need to learn more than what is possible for that game. Hell, we've all seen the 50+ threads on supposed "smash pros" complaining about "AT's" being taken out of Brawl.
As for short hopping from Mama's post...I don't if even that will be possible anymore due to jumps being beefed up. =\
Mama
Smash Ace
Short hopping was confirmed day one of e for all. It was also confirmed in many videos on the dojo don't worry if you're worried don't rejoice if you were planning on it.
The advanced community is something beyond the control of anyone. It can be influenced by changes in the game but it will always evolve at its own rate regardless. I've updated my original post so please read through it all. In no way do I want to flame you. I didn't have any resentment in my posting I was just making a point. No hostilities no hard feelings.
Tony_
Smash Ace
I was neither actually. I was wondering if it was...more strategies for online.
Mama
Smash Ace
Lol yea. My sincerest hope is that through online play we'll open the eyes of casual players to the advanced level of play for Brawl. If anything will increase the amount of tournament goers it'll be that. They probably wont be clouded by the preconceived notion that all AT's are glitches or cheating and will likely be more intrigued and interested in getting better.I was neither actually. I was wondering if it was...more strategies for online.
Aside from that theres the obvious playing really good people online lol.
Tony_
Smash Ace
Yeah. xD Online play will almost always make any bad-player good and will definitely help with Brawl tournaments, online or offline.
Decent post overall, mama, but you seem to ignore the fact that even if advanced players can play to win, it doesnt mean nothing ingame, can be cheap.
The thing is that i can be cheap, and still be used. The whole reason why some moves(not going to be specific, as i dont take a side here) are called cheap is because they are counterless, or require far more work to counter, then it was to execute.
My "experience" from advanced, competitive gaming comes from RTS and shooters however, so how it works out in smash bros, is actually a bit much...
But the word cheap only applys to things that are not well ballanaced, and therefor abused. This act has alot of names really.. cheating, exploiting, it comes down to the same. It does add depth in certain games, IF it is doable by any normal man, The real task is with the use of the technique, and the timing.
All i am trying to say really is that, as long as the counters present are equally accesable as the move itself, ballance on the advanced playing field will be there.. and non advanced players shouldnt be on that field anyway
The thing is that i can be cheap, and still be used. The whole reason why some moves(not going to be specific, as i dont take a side here) are called cheap is because they are counterless, or require far more work to counter, then it was to execute.
My "experience" from advanced, competitive gaming comes from RTS and shooters however, so how it works out in smash bros, is actually a bit much...
But the word cheap only applys to things that are not well ballanaced, and therefor abused. This act has alot of names really.. cheating, exploiting, it comes down to the same. It does add depth in certain games, IF it is doable by any normal man, The real task is with the use of the technique, and the timing.
All i am trying to say really is that, as long as the counters present are equally accesable as the move itself, ballance on the advanced playing field will be there.. and non advanced players shouldnt be on that field anyway
Mama
Smash Ace
Well in terms of the work/counter ratio. Anything where the execution greatly out weighs the (current) counter is considered broken. But there isn't anything in Melee that is broken. All the tactics have their counter tactics. But I know what you mean and I agree completely.
The advanced tactics and techniques cannot by any means be countered by mere non competitive level play. You have to get competitive to beat competitive. The people who don't understand that are the ones that just give up and consider everything they can't do cheap. All of the advanced things are available to all players and it doesn't take much to pick them up. It takes practice to polish them and perfect your own fighting style.
Zeela12
Smash Ace
ATs would generally mean Assist Trophies, so please don't confuse people.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Try going to nsider. That's even worse.
greenblob
Smash Lord
"Advanced techniques" is a general, arbitrary term that encompasses techniques or strategies that most players don't know about or cannot perform. For example, in tennis, spinning the ball would be considered an "advanced technique." And yes, Brawl will have its own set of advanced techniques, some of which will have carried over from Melee and Smash 64.
FalconPunch
Smash Journeyman
It is impossible for Brawl to not have advanced techniques. Just that the advanced techniques may not be that advanced.
No I mean they will be different than Melee's thus you will call them by other names since the form the will be different.