Guide Melee 225: Advanced Bowser Tech [Competing in a 20XX World]

Pangwell

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#1
As I promised, I have brought to this board a rolling guide that I have spent much more time working on than I should have. I have an exam on Thursday, and I thought the best way to get this off my mind was to just post it now, and work out the minor kinks later.

So, here's the rolling guide:

1. Hold L or R.
2. Press either left or right on the analog stick, and Bowser will roll in the respective direction, granting brief invincibility, followed by a period of vulnerability before he returns to a neutral stance.
3. Please don't do it.

I'm glad to have posted important information key to advancing the meta. Thank you for coming to read and I hope you had a wonderful day.

-----

Puns aside, here is the guide that hopefully will bring all five Bowser mains up to speed.

Warning: This guide is not for the soft-shelled. Be preparing for a lot of light teasing. But if you can look past it, you may find some gems (or coins)(or stars)(or whatever Bowser eats. What does Bowser even eat?). Good luck out there on the battlefields, my armored allies.
 
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CnB | Chandy

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#2
Great guide! Your sense of humor is refreshing. Thanks for the shoutouts as well. I should mention that I'm not actually a Bowser main (hardly even play the guy tbh), I just made that video as a fun side project to help out those poor five Bowser mains. My heart is pledged to DK these days, unfortunately.

Hopefully this is only version 1.0! I too have been experimenting with some neat stuff for Bowser if you're planning on updating that section of the guide. The aerial fortress transition into grounded fortress platform mix-up in particular sounds pretty neat.

I love optimizing the bottom half of the cast and I also really like researching obscure tech so if there's anything you want me to look into or record gfycats for to supplement your guide, let me know and i'd be happy to help out.
 

Pangwell

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#3
Yo, to be completely honest the humorous aspects of the guide were directly inspired by your new revolutionary tech videos. And your DK is sick. And don't worry, anything that contributes to the Bowser meta is like a drop of water in a desert. Spiky turtles need water to live, right? I must research this

And yes, this is a rolling guide, so I'm planning on updating it as I find new tech. I was particularly proud of my discovery of aerial interrupt nair on dreamland platforms, but I haven't been able to implement it in play at all, so it's lingering in the #experimental section until the next tourney I attend.

I'm also considering creating a YouTube channel to reproduce this guide with video tutorials, and stuff. My dazzle records in pasty interlaced video though, and also I can't get the audio to work.

But yeah, if you have any spare time, it'd definitely be awesome to do some recording and stuff, although I can't really think of anything specific, besides the aerial fortress --> grounded fortress tech, if that can be done consistently, or aerial interrupt onto platforms, just for people to see what it looks like.
 
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CnB | Chandy

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#4
Cool, I'll try to find consistent set-ups for the aerial to grounded fortress on all the legal stages. While I'm at it I'll look into set-ups for edge cancel aerial fortress, looks like it could be a pretty neat combo tool sometimes. Also no-impact land fortress aerial fortress interrupt, which I don't even really understand but appears to be a thing.

In the meantime, here's something I've had lying around for a while but never got a chance to share. Hopefully you can find a use for it. Probably the only way you can get away with using Fire Breath in anything other than an edgeguard situation.

https://gfycat.com/ParallelConsiderateBoubou
 
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Pangwell

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#5
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CnB | Chandy

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#6
Okay so first up is the easiest one to perform, Aerial Fortress Interrupt (AFI). If the apex of Bowser's aerial fortress terminates too high above a platform, he will exit the animation and go into special fall, which will then cause him to land with extra lag. However, if you do it low enough, Bowser's upward momentum will end at just the right height to allow you to interrupt the rest of the aerial fortress animation by shielding, jumping or doing any grounded attack, negating the usual landing lag. You'll know when you did an AFI if Bowser lands on the platform without making a sound or causing the screen to shake. See the gfy below for comparison and possible applications.

http://gfycat.com/GiganticRelievedBug

This gfy shows off some useful set-ups for the AFI that I found. Getting it to happen from a ledge hop is generally the hardest in my experience during filming. Otherwise all you have to do is make sure you use aerial fortress immediately after you leave the ground from your full hop and it should happen every time.

http://gfycat.com/CarelessNiceBoaconstrictor

Working on the aerial to grounded fortress set-ups right now, will share when I get done with those too. I think I'll call it Fortress Landing (FL) for short.
 
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Pangwell

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#7
Holy moley! This is some cool stuff! I'm busy studying for an exam happening tomorrow, but I'm going to update the doc with this tech as soon as possible once it's all over. You are a gamechanger Chandy ^u^
 
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CnB | Chandy

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#8
Hey no worries. Good luck with that.

Anyway, Fortress Landing. To be honest I have no idea what makes Bowser snap to the platform instead of continuing on with the aerial version. Someone who knows the game better like @Kadano or schmooblidon schmooblidon might be able to crack that one. Hopefully understanding the mechanics behind it will allow us to nail down how exactly to set it up, because when I was filming these gfys it was honestly just random whether I got it or not. It seems like he can snap to ground during various different parts of the animation so it's not as simple as just doing at a certain spacing or timing and it'll work every time. My guess is that something screwy is going on with the collision boxes but I wouldn't know what to look for.

Regardless of the mechanics, here's a comparison between Fortress Landing and a regular aerial fortress landing. You will always know if you have snapped to the platform if the reddish/brown sparks underneath Bowser become visible. Your horizontal mobility also increases drastically as soon as the snap happens, so be careful not to fly off and SD by accident.

http://gfycat.com/BelatedPoliticalBarnswallow

Here are some set-ups and possible applications I've found if you want to practice them. This could be a nice boost to his platform mobility if mastered.

http://gfycat.com/ClosedScientificDassierat

I'll look into edge cancel aerial fortress later, probably tomorrow.
 
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schmooblidon

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#10
Works just like an aerial interrupt. It's ECB pattern has several downward extensions.

frame 3 small
frame 6 large
frame 13 large
frame 17 small
frame 25 large
frame 33 large

Remember that the ECB is locked for 10 frames when going airborne or when doublejumping.
 

Pangwell

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#11
Ok, so I've added both tech advancements into the google doc. You guys are amazing.

One really cool part about AFI (Aerial Fortress Interrupt) is the fact that the up-B has a hitbox, meaning there's potential for the move to combo into the next attack. That would be a correct interpretation, right? I'm going to lab this later tonight, but it seems like another really interesting approach option for Bowser on opponents hanging out on platforms, potentially added shield pressure.

As for implementation of Fortress Landing, I've actually used it as a movement mixup against my training buddy, albeit unintentionally. (I apologize for the potato quality :c) https://gfycat.com/GraciousUnnaturalCarpenterant

As of right now it just feels sorta like luck; either you hit it or you miss. I suppose there's some way to standardize/count frames if you wanted to consistently pull it off, though.

EDIT: Gfycatted the hypothetical AFI combo. It's true. C:
 
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#12
This guide is one of the most thorough Boozer guides to date, excellent job man!

In the section where you talk about the klaw, you can actually get a regrab off the forward throw if they DI up and back. DJ does this all the time. It's super stylish and a really good DI trap.

It can be seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-na5cfbaP74

Great job again! Hope to see more stuff from you in the future.
 

Pangwell

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#13
Thanks man! I'm just trying my best to make it in this lackluster antikoopa world, ya know?

And that's a really neat klaw trick, I'll patch it in the notes real quick. Again, this guide is rolling (hopefully not with Bowser's roll frames :p), so I'll be updating it as new discoveries are made and whatnot.
 
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CnB | Chandy

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#14
EDIT: Gfycatted the hypothetical AFI combo. It's true. C:
Super neat, glad it has real application. You should have a friend hold left or right and test potential follow-ups for SDI out. If they know to SDI out you'll have to settle for a ftilt, dash grab, or dash attack depending on your position on the platform in relation to where they're DIing. AFI utilt is probably a wicked floaty killer though, test it on Marth, Sheik, and Peach too if you have the time.
 

CnB | Chandy

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#15
Okay so who's ready for some bomb *** dank *** defensive ledge options? Bowser's in desperate need of those as it is anyway, so I'd imagine these will come in handy.

Believe it or not, AFI isn't just restricted to platforms. If you drop from the ledge and up-B at the perfect height to allow the aerial fortress arc to terminate right as he reaches stage height, he'll do an AFI from the ledge, after which you can shield, or ftilt, or jab, or side-B, or whatever. Although it's slower than his regular ledge dash, it goes much farther and the disjointed hitboxes at least protect Bowser a little bit. #Experiment with it and let me know how it works out.

http://gfycat.com/AgileFilthyFinwhale

You can also Fortress Land from the ledge as well, which you can use to get out of the corner (although the endlag makes it less safe than AFI) or retreat back to ledge quickly to bait out some reaction from your opponent. Whenever you Fortress Land or just regular fortress from the top platform, you should be looking to retreat to the side platforms and edge cancel/teeter cancel the endlag of Fortress for max efficiency. It really gets me excited to see Bowser moving this fast. Hopefully you gooberinos master this stuff soon so I can see it in action.

http://gfycat.com/IncompatibleReadyBubblefish

Still looking into all the uses of edge cancel aerial Fortress, it's actually shaping up to be super helpful considering Bowser's awful mobility and how much faster he covers space while in grounded or aerial fortress. Platforms really are Bowser's best friend, can't stress that enough.
 
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Pangwell

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#16
Believe it or not, AFI isn't just restricted to platforms.
Damn son.

The Fortress Land Retreat from Ledge looks slick af... if I get consistent with that maneuver I'm definitely putting it in a tech showcase video. :p

But yeah, I'm surprised at how useful Aerial Fortress Interrupt is turning out to be. The timing isn't all that difficult either after practicing it for a bit. Having such a fast moving hitbox from the ledge might surprise people, and it definitely adds to Bowser's ledge options. I'll definitely put this stuff into the doc.

It's weird but pretty exciting to think that we're actually making tangible improvements to the meta. ^.^
----
Just for people who are wondering, I've started also updating the guide with clips from my highlight reel because I'm too lazy to gfycat the specific moments/I'm an incredibly conceited ******* child. I hope ya'll don't mind :bowsermelee:
 
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Pangwell

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#18
Straying away a little from Up-B tech, I released a video detailing some options for the Koopa Klaw forward throw. Although A Stuffy Muffin A Stuffy Muffin informed me of the forward throw regrab from the backwards DI, I actually wasn't aware of the other DI regrab until I started filming today. I suppose if you were playing a spacie/fast faller with incredibly bad DI you could just KK them all day and they wouldn't be able to get out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSGNEkDWU4Y
 
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CnB | Chandy

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#19
Neat videos. Like I've said before, if you get the chance you should try to see how aerial fortress follow-ups are limited by the various ways the opponent can SDI to escape the multiple hitboxes. Multi-hit weak moves like these are notoriously easy to get out of by just holding a certain direction, and with heavier characters with good crouch cancels like Peach or Samus, they can probably just hold down and dsmash you out of it if they see it coming. Either way you shouldn't always expect to get the meaty combo utilts and it would be wise to know exactly how to react with an optimal punish for each potential escape option they have if you want to make it a consistent part of your punish game. It might be something a bit lame like a dash regrab, ftilt, klaw or maybe (like you demonstrated in the video) an immediate grounded up-B, which is by far his fastest and safest option up close but will result in an automatic drop of the combo if missed.

Klaw regrabs are great and all but unlike the Klaw bthrow, which is super fast and hard to react to, the Klaw fthrow isn't tough to see coming and DI properly because the animation is longer and more deliberate. That means in practice you're going to get these goofy DI in follow-ups less than you would think in practice, especially if they're familiar with the match up. When I play against Bowser with my secondary Falco or something, if I get Klawed at a percent where I know a Klaw bthrow is likely to come out, I automatically DI to survive the bthrow just as a precaution, and then I watch closely to see if fthrow comes out, and if I recognize the start up I quickly switch to DI away and 90% I just get out for free. Maybe I'm playing crappy Bowsers or my knowledge of this part of the match-up is unusual for your average spacie, but I don't think it's something you should rely on too much. Mostly what Klaw fthrow/regular uthrow are useful for is getting them to tech on platforms above you at mid/low percents (before the point Klaw bthrowing and doing a boring Bowser edgeguard is the best way to take the stock).

I'm more interested in your claim that tech chasing is more than possible with dthrow, which I think is a little dubious but if you're right then it would be a more reliable punish option than his other very DI-able throws. Bowser doesn't get a lot of frame advantage off of his dthrow, and like all his other throws, DIing away is effective to escape a punish. Bowser's uthrow and dthrow are both very slow and deliberate so getting the proper DI is pretty easy. Say you've got your back to the corner and you get a free shield grab off Fox's mistimed up-smash or something. If you dthrow him, he can just DI out and tech away into center stage and there's nothing you can do to catch him. Even if they just DI out and tech in place, Bowser's awful initial dash and garbage grabs will still lose to tech in place shine/spotdodge. I think dthrow works best on platforms or at the edge of the stage, where they have no room to tech away or DI away so you can feasibly cover most of the options. How exactly do you go about tech chasing off of dthrow? Make a video on that if you have the time, it would be helpful for me to understand.

Also lol at naming your own combos, I do that too. Whenever I pull them off in tournament I internally flourish with happiness and award myself imaginary Tony Hawk points based on the whole sequence. I don't have the guts to name them after myself though. You should definitely start sharing these videos on the subreddit, they certainly qualify as informative.
 
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Pangwell

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#20
Like I've said before, if you get the chance you should try to see how aerial fortress follow-ups are limited by the various ways the opponent can SDI to escape the multiple hitboxes.
Definitely! I'll try to have a friend help me with this. Exams have been keeping most friends (and tourneys, sadly) away, so that's been fun.

Klaw regrabs are great and all but unlike the Klaw bthrow, which is super fast and hard to react to, the Klaw fthrow isn't tough to see coming and DI properly because the animation is longer and more deliberate.
I agree 100%. The only real chance of messing someone's DI up is by pummeling, which tends to get people's analog sticks excited and typically in the wrong direction, but even that's unreliable. Yeah, there's likely a 0.001% chance of anyone getting off the Pangwell Pitch™, but it's an option. The name's a little tacky, so I might switch it to "The Tortoise Hop" or something similar to that in nature.

I'm more interested in your claim that tech chasing is more than possible with dthrow, which I think is a little dubious but if you're right then it would be a more reliable punish option than his other very DI-able throws.
I probably should have clarified. In my experience, Bowser's d-throw animation with Foxco is relatively quick, and their techs don't seem to give them much distance, which a dash grab seems to be able to cover. For other characters with long tech ranges (Falcon, Marth, etc) it definitely doesn't work. I'll definitely pour more research into this field, since it's probably the most useful tech to look after, but you're right, I will need to scrutinize it more closely.

You should definitely start sharing these videos on the subreddit, they certainly qualify as informative.
I'll definitely do that then! I'll probably do it later though, since it's 2:00 AM here. :bowsermelee::bowsermelee::bowsermelee:
 
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Synnett

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#21
Are we really only 5 Bowser mains? Oh dem.

It's also interesting to note that on Yoshi, there is a one frame window (I think) where you can't grab the ledge if you edgehog. It happened multiple times to me - stay safe!

You can short hop and full 2nd jump and land without lag on yoshi and fountain. Same stages, you can use downB on the floor and land on the top platform. Got a hit with that lol. It might be a good options, when they land or escape here or whatever, but still risky.

Down smash has insane priority and actually can cancel Luigi's misfire. A good options for this awful match up. Does tons of damage too. :o You can use it against spacie's side B too.

If the dude is chilling at the middle of the stage and you are on a platform, you can upB down the ledge. Those small hitboxes will stab him, and when you land, due to the lag (you stay longer in the air), it will cancel the landing animation and you can ftilt the dude running toward you. Works every time.

If you steal the ledge and either Falcon or Sheik land on the stage with their recovery, you have enough free frames to climb back on stage and koopa klaw them back in the void. It works with other characters too, but you have to climb back earlier. If you think you are too late, just wait, they are most likely going to spot dodge.

If you can koopa klaw forward throw on capt. falcon and he spot dodges on the platform, free upair. If he misses his landing, free koopa klaw. Hard to pull off tho.

Add me in the credits you forgot me! xD

Link matchup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucKxg29h9Eo
Capt Falcon tricks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnRNg-r7wME

Also, I'm trying to find a setup to be able to trigger tripping. His options to get back up are amazing, mostly if you can pull it off on a platform.
 

Pangwell

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#22
Oops! I'll make sure to add your name to the doc.

I actually covered about half of your suggestions in the guide, such as the no-impact land on Yoshi's Story. It's possible on FoD as well, but less consistently, although I guess I should add that in there as well.

Nice hints about waiting for the spot dodge! I'll make sure to add that to the guide, as well as downsmash uses.

Also, I'm trying to find a setup to be able to trigger tripping. His options to get back up are amazing, mostly if you can pull it off on a platform.
I personally don't see too much use in intentionally tripping. If you slide off a platform while your shield is up and your back is facing the ledge, you will enter a tumbling animation. Activating it is actually pretty easy; simply wavedash/waveland backwards so that you're still sliding while your shield is out. If you don't touch any buttons as you hit the ground, you should crash and flop like a sad pancake. The real question is finding a good reason for doing this: while you're standing you definitely have more mobility and options. Being stuck on the ground with only four (roll x2, get up, attack) is not optimal if you're playing against someone who can cut all of these options off (which isn't terribly difficult considering how massive poor Boozer is). Maybe if you hit the ground, and immediately attack, that might catch someone off guard, but considering how long Bowser is vulnerable as he hits the ground, it might not be worth.

Still, it's an interesting line of thought to pursue.

Updates coming soon (after my Stats exam is done!): Guaranteed Fortress Lands (yes, I've found out how to do it now).
 
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CnB | Chandy

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#23
Updates coming soon (after my Stats exam is done!): Guaranteed Fortress Lands (yes, I've found out how to do it now).
BUT WHEN?!?!?!? I miss you and your insights. :(

Well I looked into edge cancel aerial fortress (ECAF) and in my opinion it may be more useful than AFI or fortress landing. Because aerial fortress boosts Bowser's aerial mobility far beyond that of his usual dash jump, it's by far the fastest way for him to move around the stage, as long as the point you want to end up at is near a platform and there is little risk of you getting hit out of aerial fortress while in transit. If you want to remain on a platform at the end of your aerial fortress arc and you're not in position to get an AFI (coming from above the platform or starting your aerial fortress too high to land before going into special fall), you can teeter cancel aerial fortress (TCAF) and then immediately turn around and do a grounded option, like ftilt, grab, klaw, jab, or shield depending on what you need. I would imagine there is similar combo potential here as with AFI, but if they DI off the platform you can hit them with a fair or bair and feel look like a real cool dude.

You can use it from the ledge as well, and combined with AFI and FL, it gives you a lot of neat mix-ups as the startup of all three look almost exactly the same, making it harder to guess where Bowser will end up. Given that this is all brand new stuff in a match-up that most people never play in the first place I guarantee you will catch people off guard with all your tricky ledge movements.

ECAF is most useful for when you knock an opponent across the stage at high percents and you would normally be unable to get a follow-up or position yourself for an edgeguard. You slingshot yourself across the stage using the mobility boost from aerial fortress, then get the edge cancel and throw out whatever moves you want while your opponent thinks they're safe from slow dumpy Bowser (see the last clip in the gfy for an example). It's super neat. <3 <3 <3 this tool, practice it all day long.

http://gfycat.com/FrayedElaborateAurochs

You can also edge or teeter cancel off the edge of the stage itself, not just with platforms. However, given how easy it is to screw up and SD if you overshoot even a little bit, I would recommend sticking to platform ECAF/TCAF until you really master the execution.
 

Synnett

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#24
CnB | Chandy CnB | Chandy Wow man that's amazing o_O Is it what you're talking about?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnRNg-r7wME (watch until 0:25)

I think I actually pull out a ton of those, but accidentally. That's indeed some potential, I'm going to try implement this in my play. :p It might even be useful against Link (or other characters) when you get stuck on top of him. Just upB and edge cancel somewhere else.

Also, I have started doing something recently... if I successfully DI up when thrown out of the stage, I often try to recover high and edge cancel the falling animation on the top platform. A few guys told me that they actually have no idea where I'm going to land, as Bowser is usually so slow in the air, and they have a hard time punishing my landing. You can even slow down and land on the ledge. It's not some insane tech skills, but it does help Boozer's average recovery.
 

the muted smasher

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#25
I think You should bring into detail how amazing bowser,s shield size is. With his amazing fall speed, he can basically marth killer most of the cast with his massive light shield.

Also, while likly useless if You hold A, You can press z and power shield with Your massive light shield.

Also I'm very gimmicky in general something I've started liking with reads is down-b, like I'll down B when like a doc is about to sh fair off a platform or full jump pill.

Also if I down-b it always trades with some recoveries like marth, doc, fox and etc. I'm not sure if it's any more than just fun tho.

Huge fan of waveland up tilt vs peach and puff
 

Synnett

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#26
Alright, a little something I've been doing for some time. If you manage to koopa klaw front throw a fox/sheik/falcon, and it lands on the top platform on battlefield, you can run of the platform , double jump right before you touch the floor, and you get a free uair on the foe, as he doesn't have the time to tech or land before you hit.

Also, you can run toward a platform from the center of the stage, waveland off it and basically do the same thing, as a mixup.
 

Pangwell

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#27
Hey, all. Nice to see you've been keeping the thread warm and cozy while I've been dying underneath a pile of papers and exams.

I finally managed to get my lazy butt off the ground and finished the project. Behold! A Fortress Landing guide, all wrapped up in one bundle of popping music and joy!


As for all of the interesting tips provided, I'll add them to the doc after I've finished this new wave of paper/exam/job things. :bowsermelee::bowsermelee::bowsermelee:
 
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Synnett

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#28
Hey, all. Nice to see you've been keeping the thread warm and cozy while I've been dying underneath a pile of papers and exams.

I finally managed to get my lazy butt off the ground and finished the project. Behold! A Fortress Landing guide, all wrapped up in one bundle of popping music and joy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zNljm78Ec0

As for all of the interesting tips provided, I'll add them to the doc after I've finished this new wave of paper/exam/job things. :bowsermelee::bowsermelee::bowsermelee:
Dude that's fantastic! o/ It will definitely change the metagame :083:

It saddens me that no one bothered to check this tech before, Boozer needs more love. Still checking those triggered falls, it's promising so far.

Edit: Still forgot me, I'm a Bowser main too xD
 
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Synnett

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#29
Hey guys, while practicing the fortress landings I found out that if, on fountain, the platform is at its lowest static spot, you can upB on the first frame after the jumpsquat (technically input upB on frame 9), and you will stick to the platform. I feel like it's useful but impossible to do consistently lol.
 

Buda

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#30
Another thing about FoD. You know how you snap onto the platform after doing a ledgejump on Yoshi's? When the platforms on FoD are at their highest, you can do the same thing. It seems to be slightly slower in my experience, but it does still work. Its only real applications are upB or downsmash in my experience.
 

Synnett

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#31
I've been practicing a few options with wavedash. Bowser's wavedash gives him ton of speed and it goes quite far too.

First of all, you can run toward the ledge, "perfect wavedash" and just skyrocket to the ledge and get a f-tilt in the momentum. It might be great for the neutral too, along with a very very quick grab. Also, I found that if you short hop, flick your stick backward (to gain momentum) and wavedash back toward the ledge, you can get a easy pivot f-tilt. I'm definitely going to use this against Ganondorf and Falcon, as the spacing is perfect to edgeguard this upB.

I'll try to record this when I can, an image is worth a thousand words. I'm pretty sure it's going to be useful.
 

Buda

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#32
I've been practicing a few options with wavedash. Bowser's wavedash gives him ton of speed and it goes quite far too.

First of all, you can run toward the ledge, "perfect wavedash" and just skyrocket to the ledge and get a f-tilt in the momentum. It might be great for the neutral too, along with a very very quick grab. Also, I found that if you short hop, flick your stick backward (to gain momentum) and wavedash back toward the ledge, you can get a easy pivot f-tilt. I'm definitely going to use this against Ganondorf and Falcon, as the spacing is perfect to edgeguard this upB.

I'll try to record this when I can, an image is worth a thousand words. I'm pretty sure it's going to be useful.
This is really good. I've been doing this for a while, and the thing with pivot ftilt is very effective with wavelands. It's good as a mixup and it's something you'll want to surprise the enemy with.
 

Synnett

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#33
A little something new I found, you can no impact land on the top platform of battlefield after a waveland on the side platform and jump mid air in the middle. You have to double jump a bit late, but the timing is easy .

After that land you can upB or koopa klaw if the opponent is lying on the ground, as it's pretty hard to do so in mid air.

A bit useful I guess, but nothing amazing.
 

Buda

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#34
It actually is pretty useful, definitely situational though. This is something I've known about for some time but I haven't really experimented with it in matches too much. A NIL utilt could be pretty useful if you are tech chasing to top platform, or NIL upB then go to the ledge. This is something we should mess around with more, I'm sure it's applicable.
 

Synnett

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#35
omagawd found something new. On Yoshi's, if you run toward the ledge, and as soon as you are in mid-air, you jump backward, you will no impact land on the side platform. Very fast and it could be gud for edgeguards.

Edit: Works for Battlefield too omg AND DREAM LAND :DDDDDDDD

Also, if you jump a bit late, you can fortress land on the side platform (basically an easy setup for this frame perfect tech), and with another timing you can fortress cancel on the top platform or even fly to the other ledge and grab the ledge if you fast fall through the last platform.

Try it out :083:
 
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Buda

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#36
omagawd found something new. On Yoshi's, if you run toward the ledge, and as soon as you are in mid-air, you jump backward, you will no impact land on the side platform. Very fast and it could be gud for edgeguards.

Also, if you jump a bit late, you can fortress land on the side platform (basically an easy setup for this frame perfect tech), and with another timing you can fortress cancel on the top platform or even fly to the other ledge and grab the ledge if you fast fall through the last platform.

Try it out :083:
I don't have time to test it out now, but that sounds like it could be used pretty well to edge guard spacies if you read a higher recovery.
 

the muted smasher

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#38
At 34:48 bowser dding back and forth jumps at marth reacts and 2nd jumps away and uses the Inv. Frames to avoid fair and land on the platform, if the bowser reacted he could've shielded/waveland ed or maybe d tilted in response to marth's 2nd jump fair. I feel like how You play Your oos and use Your 2nd jump are some of the biggest parts of his neutral game. I also liked when he read a marth grab and would roll behind him for a grab, so if marth just tryed to space moves bowser could still cc punish



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7CaJ-zrUnkw
 

CnB | Chandy

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#39
In my experience, Bowser's d-throw animation with Foxco is relatively quick, and their techs don't seem to give them much distance, which a dash grab seems to be able to cover. For other characters with long tech ranges (Falcon, Marth, etc) it definitely doesn't work. I'll definitely pour more research into this field, since it's probably the most useful tech to look after, but you're right, I will need to scrutinize it more closely.
I've been waiting for months, and still nothing. A sad day for Chandys everywhere. Don't worry, I'll bail you out just this one time.

Bowser can only cover all options on reaction out of dthrow if he dthrows Fox/Falco into the corner. If they have the room behind them, the spacie can just DI away and tech away and there's no way you can cover it because Bowser's super slow. When you dthrow Fox into the corner, though, DI away tech away can only go to the edge of the stage, so you can cover it with a dthrow. If you get a grab in the interior of the stage, you'll have to settle for uthrowing the spacie onto a platform and covering the tech with fair (unless you're on FD, then you just get nothing).

Regardless of how much the spacie DIs away, immediately after the dthrow animation completes you should dash towards the spacies landing. You will always need to do this to be in position to cover all options on reach. Your first task is to determine whether they missed tech or not. Any missed tech will produce a green shockwave underneath the opponent. In my opinion this is the most important thing to watch for when you're attempting to make this determination. Observe these two gifs showing Falco's tech in place and missed tech neutral stand in slow motion.

http://i.imgur.com/brv3bPP.webm
http://i.imgur.com/Y912pjw.webm

Once you are aware that they have successfully teched, you must distinguish between tech in place, tech away, and tech in, as these will all have the smallest reaction windows for a successful coverage. This imgur album shows the first five frames of Fox's tech animations in slow motion. Fox's feet are the most visually distinctive part of each animation, and watching them closely will allow you to determine their tech option as quickly as possible. If his feet stay mostly straight up in the air, it's a tech in. If his feet come apart, it's a tech in place (watch closely for this one, it's the hardest to react to). If his feet scrunch in towards his body, it's tech away. Internalize these animations and memorize them. LET THEM BECOME A PART OF YOU.

For tech in place, you can either up-B out of your dash or dash grab. Tech in place shine is a very popular option for spacies who get knocked down in the corner, so you should be watching for it because the reaction is pretty tough. http://gfycat.com/HonestJubilantFawn

For tech in, you can either up-B them out of your dash and hit them mid-roll with the initial hitbox, or if you're late, you can always drift back and hit them with a weak hit. If you get the reaction early enough you can even turnaround Klaw, but because the up-B option can potentially cover both tech in place and tech in, it's the safer pick if you're not the best at reacting. http://gfycat.com/SecondhandNervousIsabellineshrike

For tech away, you can either continue to a run and then up-B them (strong hit or drift to ledge weak hit depending on your timing/their DI), or you can continue into a run and dash grab. I prefer dash grab because the reaction isn't hard and it gives you a free dthrow at the edge of the stage, which is a juicy opportunity. http://gfycat.com/PerfumedWickedGorilla

If they missed tech, cancel your dash with a shield stop. From here, you are in position to shield grab get-up attack and neutral stand, and you can up-B out of shield to cover get up roll in or away. You can also jab reset if you're a real man but why risk giving the opponent the opportunity to SDI up and roll out? That would be hella suboptimal. http://gfycat.com/ScalyUnawareBoutu

Depending on your stage positioning you may be able to bthrow someone into the corner. Bthrow can set-up tech chases just like dthrow as long as tech away isn't an option, and it's also a much faster animation, which makes your reactions easier and also increases the odds of you catching the spacie DIing poorly in anticipation of a dthrow. However, bthrow is only effective for the lower percents whereas dthrow has low enough knockback growth to work for much longer. If they get sent far enough to DI offstage you've basically given up the punish opportunity in favor of an edgeguard you're not in position for. Either way, bthrow when you can, it's a good mix-up when platforms aren't in the way but you're not in position for a dthrow. http://gfycat.com/WildUnfoldedEland

Don't just uthrow spacies all the time like a goober and wonder why your Bowser sucks. Know exactly what you want to do off of each grab and your punish game will be SO DANK.
 
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Buda

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#40
I've been waiting for months, and still nothing. A sad day for Chandys everywhere. Don't worry, I'll bail you out just this one time.

Bowser can only cover all options on reaction out of dthrow if he dthrows Fox/Falco into the corner. If they have the room behind them, the spacie can just DI away and tech away and there's no way you can cover it because Bowser's super slow. When you dthrow Fox into the corner, though, DI away tech away can only go to the edge of the stage, so you can cover it with a dthrow. If you get a grab in the interior of the stage, you'll have to settle for uthrowing the spacie onto a platform and covering the tech with fair (unless you're on FD, then you just get nothing).

Regardless of how much the spacie DIs away, immediately after the dthrow animation completes you should dash towards the spacies landing. You will always need to do this to be in position to cover all options on reach. Your first task is to determine whether they missed tech or not. Any missed tech will produce a green shockwave underneath the opponent. In my opinion this is the most important thing to watch for when you're attempting to make this determination. Observe these two gifs showing Falco's tech in place and missed tech neutral stand in slow motion.

http://i.imgur.com/brv3bPP.webm
http://i.imgur.com/Y912pjw.webm

Once you are aware that they have successfully teched, you must distinguish between tech in place, tech away, and tech in, as these will all have the smallest reaction windows for a successful coverage. This imgur album shows the first five frames of Fox's tech animations in slow motion. Fox's feet are the most visually distinctive part of each animation, and watching them closely will allow you to determine their tech option as quickly as possible. If his feet stay mostly straight up in the air, it's a tech in. If his feet come apart, it's a tech in place (watch closely for this one, it's the hardest to react to). If his feet scrunch in towards his body, it's tech away. Internalize these animations and memorize them. LET THEM BECOME A PART OF YOU.

For tech in place, you can either up-B out of your dash or dash grab. Tech in place shine is a very popular option for spacies who get knocked down in the corner, so you should be watching for it because the reaction is pretty tough. http://gfycat.com/HonestJubilantFawn

For tech in, you can either up-B them out of your dash and hit them mid-roll with the initial hitbox, or if you're late, you can always drift back and hit them with a weak hit. If you get the reaction early enough you can even turnaround Klaw, but because the up-B option can potentially cover both tech in place and tech in, it's the safer pick if you're not the best at reacting. http://gfycat.com/SecondhandNervousIsabellineshrike

For tech away, you can either continue to a run and then up-B them (strong hit or drift to ledge weak hit depending on your timing/their DI), or you can continue into a run and dash grab. I prefer dash grab because the reaction isn't hard and it gives you a free dthrow at the edge of the stage, which is a juicy opportunity. http://gfycat.com/PerfumedWickedGorilla

If they missed tech, cancel your dash with a shield stop. From here, you are in position to shield grab get-up attack and neutral stand, and you can up-B out of shield to cover get up roll in or away. You can also jab reset if you're a real man but why risk giving the opponent the opportunity to SDI up and roll out? That would be hella suboptimal. http://gfycat.com/ScalyUnawareBoutu

Depending on your stage positioning you may be able to bthrow someone into the corner. Bthrow can set-up tech chases just like dthrow as long as tech away isn't an option, and it's also a much faster animation, which makes your reactions easier and also increases the odds of you catching the spacie DIing poorly in anticipation of a dthrow. However, bthrow is only effective for the lower percents whereas dthrow has low enough knockback growth to work for much longer. If they get sent far enough to DI offstage you've basically given up the punish opportunity in favor of an edgeguard you're not in position for. Either way, bthrow when you can, it's a good mix-up when platforms aren't in the way but you're not in position for a dthrow. http://gfycat.com/WildUnfoldedEland

Don't just uthrow spacies all the time like a goober and wonder why your Bowser sucks. Know exactly what you want to do off of each grab and your punish game will be SO DANK.
This post gets the J$ seal of approval

:beezo:
 
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