Guide Melee 225: Advanced Bowser Tech [Competing in a 20XX World]

Buda

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#81
Dsmash is a great move, I personally think it is one of Bowser's best tools. It's good to punish a laggy move on shield, it's a decent crouch cancel move (in certain situations, mind you) and it can set up for great combos if it knocks them onto the platform.
 

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#82
Dsmash is a great move, I personally think it is one of Bowser's best tools. It's good to punish a laggy move on shield, it's a decent crouch cancel move (in certain situations, mind you) and it can set up for great combos if it knocks them onto the platform.
Downsmash is good, actually I'd be down to experiment with some edgeguarding options, I have done some practice with up tilts on Spacie side-Bs, as well as other options, so definitely, also, a question? What is Bowser's up-throw good for? What do I do out of it?
 

ChivalRuse

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#83
Pretty sure you can combo Bowser's uthrow into dash attack on spacies. You can also uthrow and dash grab to chain grab at certain percentages. On floaties, I think the reasoning behind uthrow is just to put them in the air where they will be more vulnerable.
 

Synnett

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#84
It's also good for putting them on the side platforms, to get a nice KK read. Also guys, whenever you play against a Luigi, dsmash can punish a side B so hard. If you see he's trying to land on stage, charge your dsmash and release. Loads of damage for free, and can kill early. A good protection against the misfire too.
 

Buda

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#86
Like Synnett said, upthrow is great for putting the opponent on the platforms. Actually, I think that that's it's primary purpose on most stages. On FD however it can lead into fair or a regrab if they DI poorly or away, nair or uair (not at super low percents on fast fallers) if they DI in or not at all. These are also possible on every stage if you are in a position where they can't reach the platforms, or if you are already on a platform.

i played dj and he up threw me and read my jump with up air. it's a scary trap.
I love doing this, glad to know DJN is doing it as well I suppose.

Pretty sure you can combo Bowser's uthrow into dash attack on spacies. You can also uthrow and dash grab to chain grab at certain percentages. On floaties, I think the reasoning behind uthrow is just to put them in the air where they will be more vulnerable.
I never liked doing this, because I think at some percents they can avoid it entirely by just jumping or doing an aerial. Correct me on that if I'm wrong, though. I do think that dash attack into utilt is a thing, that would be a super raw setup. I've probably done it at least once before, I feel like I have. Even if I have, I haven't experimented with it.
 
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Buda

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#88
I'm pretty sure u-throw chain grab is a true combo if spacies DI away. Only works at lowish percents though.
I'm pretty sure dash grab will always regrab spacies on DI away if you time it right. You could be right about the low percent thing though. Either way, in my experience, this will only work once or twice on good players because they'll catch the DI after one or two chaingrabs. Even then, when they do change their DI you can still get a decent punish.
 

ChivalRuse

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#89
Yeah it's pretty good. And Bowser has actually not the worst dash speed, and with his dash grab he lunges forward quite a bit. It's possible to get some nice dash dance grabs in neutral like this if you have good character control.
 
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Synnett

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#90
If you shield a turnip thrown at you in front of your shield, you can just wait here and you can press A to grab the turnip. Pretty useful for the stitch lmao.
 

Buda

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#91
If you shield a turnip thrown at you in front of your shield, you can just wait here and you can press A to grab the turnip. Pretty useful for the stitch lmao.
Too bad Bowser's item throw animation is 10,000,000 frames
 
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Buda

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#93
I guess you can use it as an edgeguard tool or a save if you z-drop it. You only have your KK and upB tho when you hold that turnip.
Yeah the best option would be to z-drop a caught turnip immediately. I've caught turnips that were thrown at me before and I got punished for it because literally all of my good options were gone.
 

Synnett

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#94
Yeah the best option would be to z-drop a caught turnip immediately. I've caught turnips that were thrown at me before and I got punished for it because literally all of my good options were gone.
Would a z-drop DownB combo work? xD
 

Dralro

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#96
If your goal is to have 60 frames of landing lag and hit nobody, I say this would be extremely viable
I think the strategy of catching the turnip should only be used in a few scenarios, depending on what type of turnip it is, and even what stage you are on, you may be able to space and get a read, or z-drop from a platform forcing them into position for a follow-up. (Maybe shield-drop fair or something?)
 
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#97
Speaking of Peach, what aerials are best for dealing with crouch cancel? I assume nair is not too good for that purpose, as it's a pretty weak aerial. But I was curious if bair or dair had any interesting anti-crouchcancel properties.
 

Buda

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#98
Speaking of Peach, what aerials are best for dealing with crouch cancel? I assume nair is not too good for that purpose, as it's a pretty weak aerial. But I was curious if bair or dair had any interesting anti-crouchcancel properties.
I think fair would be best, but I'd say the best option would be to grab and try to get her stuck in the air so you can pressure with uair.
 

Synnett

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#99
Speaking of Peach, what aerials are best for dealing with crouch cancel? I assume nair is not too good for that purpose, as it's a pretty weak aerial. But I was curious if bair or dair had any interesting anti-crouchcancel properties.
You can always use Koopa Klaw. It sends straight up if it doesn't grab. :083:
 

Synnett

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I found out that if you run and crouch, you can get an instant jab + uptilt, ftilt or simply a uptilt, but the last one is harder. It also gives you a protection just in case. :083:
 

Buda

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I found out that if you run and crouch, you can get an instant jab + uptilt, ftilt or simply a uptilt, but the last one is harder. It also gives you a protection just in case. :083:
This works with any character. Jab uptilt is definitely the most useful of these, mostly against lighter/floatier characters. Running fsmash is also useful (insert DJN vs Unknown memes here) in certain situations, like if you catch someone recovering too high and they're stuck in lag.
 

Buda

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Also, what are some conditioning methods you guys use?

Last time I went to a weekly, I did a jab, read their spot dodge and fsmashed. It was glorious.
 
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Synnett

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Also, what are some conditioning methods you guys use?

Last time I went to a weekly, I did a jab, read their spot dodge and fsmashed. It was glorious.
I Dthrow techchase, and when we reach the ledge they always roll inside. Free Fsmash :083:
 

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I always drop down from a side-platform and f-air or neutral air, then they are conditioned to shield, and I just walk up and Koopa Klaw xD
 
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Crouching out of a run is actually super important for Bowser because it allows you to dash, crouch to stop your dash, and dash again. You want to substitute crouching for wavedashing in situations where you need to change directions.
 

Buda

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I always drop down from a side-platform and f-air or neutral air, then they are conditioned to shield, and I just walk up and Koopa Klaw xD
KK is too slow for that. I just shine OoS and get a sick punish off your hit on shield. Most other characters could punish this too if they know what they are doing.

What works better is dropping from the platform and jumping back up, and wavelanding quickly, and repeating. I know I've seen DJN do this, but it's actually pretty decent.
 

Synnett

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Have you guys tried to crouch cancel in your techchases? I've seen Wizzrobe do it with falcon... in short you run toward them, and they'll think they can push you back with their get up attack. Cc this and Koopa klaw maybe? It's faster because no shield stun, and you can get the better version of the grab.

1300th post ayy :083:
 
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Does a grounded Koopa Klaw even connect reliably? I feel like I never see people use the grounded version. I would think the CC setup could work if they do getup attack. But you would not be able to cover the wakeup roll options on reaction. Maybe if they roll behind...
 

Synnett

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Does a grounded Koopa Klaw even connect reliably? I feel like I never see people use the grounded version. I would think the CC setup could work if they do getup attack. But you would not be able to cover the wakeup roll options on reaction. Maybe if they roll behind...
The way I'd do it... if they intend to roll away, they usually do it instantly. By then you are usually too slow to reach in time, you can then use a fair or a koopa klaw to read a jump or a spotdodge.

If they roll back well wavedash back pivot ftilt or pivot grab lol, you are usually in range, and they do it as soon as they land too. Bowser is big, so if you stand in front of the grounded character you can punish by turning around.

As for the KK on the ground... yea the range is bad and it's slow. I think it would depend on the character. But I know that they often try to instantly jump or spot dodge. You can read this with either a KK or a fair once again. If you see that they tend to bring up their shields, a normal grab can do too.

Even a ftilt can be good if they are high percent. Bowser have so many options. I guess you have to adapt to your opponent's habits.

Edit: Oh and btw, if the KK grab misses but they spot dodge, the strong hit will hit them, sending them up.
 
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After crouch cancelling getup attack, the 20GX gang does SH knee often. They use Falcon's aerial drift to make up the ground lost by the cc pushback. I think Bowser could possibly do this with his SH fair as well.

If they roll behind you, I think you can do a dash back out of crouch (somewhat hard to do) into a dash grab or grounded up-b.
 
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Synnett

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After crouch cancelling getup attack, the 20GX gang does SH knee often. They use Falcon's aerial drift to make up the ground lost by the cc pushback. I think Bowser could possibly do this with his SH fair as well.

If they roll behind you, I think you can do a dash back out of crouch (somewhat hard to do) into a dash grab or grounded up-b.
As I said Bowser is big enough to cover all the space most of the characters travel when Rolling back, because they have to pass through you. On most characters you can literally just Koopa Klaw back without moving lmao.

Also, I think Bowser's fsmash was designed to punish rolls lol. Sometimes when I dthrow them toward the ledge, they roll back in. Just enough time to get that fsmash. You can also read if they roll back. Funny fact, if you jab reset capt falcon, you can combo into fsmash. :083:

But yea, I think for characters like Peach, who has a longer roll, it's harder to punish her roll back. I'd have to test a few things to really be sure. And I think upB is really an option if you mess up something, as there are better punish options, unless they are at like 120%
 
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Yeah I mainly only suggested up-b because it's solid damage and KOs floaties at reasonable percents. But it's fairly uncommon to get floaties in a knockdown situation. So I'd imagine something that deals more damage would be preferable on the roll behind scenario... maybe SH bair?
 
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Buda

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I use CC dsmash fairly often, CC upB would be good as well. I don't see why CC KK wouldn't work, as long as your percent isn't high enough that you get pushed back too far to get the command grab.

As for why people don't use grounded Klaw often, I think it's just a mobility issue. The move itself is fine, but aerial KK is easier to work with in most cases. Reading a roll with a pivot KK is raw as **** though.
 

Buda

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I recorded me messing around and practicing my Bowser movement. Flubbed a lot of stuff but I just wanted some sort of demonstration for the Bowser boards of my movement, so I got the best footage I could: my setup recorded sloppily with my phone.

I'll take what I can get. Check it out.

 

Synnett

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I recorded me messing around and practicing my Bowser movement. Flubbed a lot of stuff but I just wanted some sort of demonstration for the Bowser boards of my movement, so I got the best footage I could: my setup recorded sloppily with my phone.

I'll take what I can get. Check it out.

If you sometimes roll after a wavedash it's because the L trigger doesn't fully got up before you input a dash. You can hold the trigger pressed while plugging the controller and the slider won't be working, it won't happen anymore . :083:

But hey dank movement :o I've never pulled off such a nice moonwalk, how do u do dis wth
 

Buda

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If you sometimes roll after a wavedash it's because the L trigger doesn't fully got up before you input a dash. You can hold the trigger pressed while plugging the controller and the slider won't be working, it won't happen anymore . :083:

But hey dank movement :o I've never pulled off such a nice moonwalk, how do u do dis wth
Yes I know that's what it is, those were only mistakes

I practice moonwalking with Bowser more than most, for good reason
 

Dralro

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Yes the movement is crisp, but more importantly how can we employ this edge cancel tech in certain matchups? I'm more of a conceptual player rather than an execution one (even though I bows pretty well) but I'd being willing to lab this out and see what options we can explore
 

Synnett

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Yes the movement is crisp, but more importantly how can we employ this edge cancel tech in certain matchups? I'm more of a conceptual player rather than an execution one (even though I bows pretty well) but I'd being willing to lab this out and see what options we can explore
It's either to read a double jump after some uair pressure, or to hit those floaties. Btw whenever I edge cancel it's always for a fair or KK under the platform.
 

Buda

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Well my plan is to learn to edge cancel anything consistently, so that I can apply fair pressure with little lag. It would be great as an anti-air I think, particularly against floaties, like Synnett said.

I also know that you can teeter cancel aerials into moves like uptilt, I made a thread on that. It is possible to hit uair uptilt on taller characters like Sheik and Marth, but other than that it's mostly just an extra trick to keep up your sleeve, which is always something you want.
 
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