Matchup Rediscussion Export: Falco (4)

[phi1ny3]

Falco

​

Matchup:

45:55

General info:

If Falco stops camping and tries going too physical and upclose, it's Lucario's advantage.

If Falco camps and does it right, it's not in Lucario's favor. If Lucario keeps trying to approach Falco can set-up some nasty stuff if your not careful.

I thing this is a straight up even match-up but I'll get into that later when I have more time.

As a base, this match-up is even.

The Bigger the stage the more in shifts in falco's favor. [45-55]

The Smaller the stage the more if shifts in our favor [55-45]

Match-up in a nutshell:

Get Close and win (:

Get Camped and lose. ):

that seriously the whole match-up.

Things that make it easier:
Learning the MIDPOINT of sideB and hitting him out of it.

Grab releasing falco [air release] on the edge is a very effective way to put him in a compromising spot.

If you have very good reaction speed and don't Airdodge/Roll into Fsmash Falco will have a very hard time killing you.

I can go more in depth if anyone wants to, this is one of the few match-ups I'm confident in.

IMO Falco is the easiest space animal for lucario to deal with.

I am agreeing with the following statement above, because saying this MU is a 60:40 in Lucario's favor is bogus.

Falco has a jab that is flat out better then ours, Lasers that make's him top 2 best campers in the game, and not to mention that his lasers if hit at close range combo's into decent killing moves, and a Fantasm that has a **** ton of invincibility frames and on our part only having 2 viable ways of stopping it. One of the ways (d tilt) can be easily avoided because all he has to do is aim above it, and Usmash he can see coming before it comes out and cancel on the distance. If people honestly think our close range game is 100% better then his their thinking wrong. We do have the advantage up close, but it's not by a huge margin, and to get that close to a smart Falco all the time to BEGIN with take's 1/2 the match to do since he has the ability to camp the balls off of you. I am not a player on theory, so I hate it when people say "What if the Falco approaches you?" or "What if the Falco does this or that". Because I can easily turn it around and say "What if the doesn't approach you until you are in kill percents?" (Which the Falco should be doing anyway) and also "What if the Falco DIDN'T do this and that?" Time to talk about facts and weed out the make believe non-sense. Falco has the capability to camp the **** out of you the whole game, hands down. As much as I am a believer on our approach game, our approaches =/= his get away options. They are in fact too great for this MU. The only TRUE things we have on Falco is we can live for a while due to our weight class vs. his killing power, and us getting stronger so when he is trying to go for the kill, we can punish him hard if he messes up. But Falco's kill moves are decently hard to punish to begin with, and he has faster options to punish if we are the ones missing. Sounds like a 60:40 to me in Falco's favor you can say 55:45 as well, but it's not even, and it's sure not in our favor.

From the Falco Backroom (I posted this a while back)



Alright before anything I realized you read the SuSa guide on why projectiles are bad and whatnot, but I strongly disagree with that topic (even though I <3 SuSa) because Lasers are broken:

-Transcendent
-2 in 1 jump
-IT FORCE'S A DEFENSIVE OPTION.


My View in the Match-up (Thanks RJ, Zucco, and PatG for all the exp.)

Falco/Lucario is a odd match-up because Lucario has really weird hit boxes that out prioritize Falco's but are noticeably slower. Lucario's aerials are very easy to punish is you react accordingly, though Falcos are too.

Both characters are good good at edge guarding [each other only because of thier mediocre recovery], but Falco has more options getting back as long as he gets patient and not flashy like I would do. Picking something like Ftilt or Fsmash is easy to avoid so be careful.

Falco straight up camping is really bad for Lucario too, I can picture Falco just backing out of all of Lucario's rush options and just getting a few lasers before being forced to pick something defensive. Lucario can do some really stupid combo's out of Dash Attack though. It sets up for sooo many bad situations in low %'s it dumb, but a lot of it has to do with where you walk to after it connects.

Phantasm has only 3 hurt-able areas the cancels points, but Lucario actually does well countering this and I won't say how. (Ugh, fine...Usmash, Ftilt, and Dash Attack.)

Both characters are good at killing each other and Lucario's Aura is something to fear when a Falco gets too far ahead in looking for a kill. A lot of unsafe options can lead to death, such as hitting the shield of the opponent. But Falco can Usmash OoS a lot more things like the Jab string, Ftilt, and Uptilt.

Aura sphere is a very good tool when edge guarding (Except when I phantasm through Zucco's 180% AS or Ninjalinks Fsmash), because it force a defensive option and thats not good for Falco (Fallspeed).

Oh dair is easy to punish don't spam it. It's like the most looked for aerial when playing against Lucario. Bair ***** it and can lead into more bad situations depending on when it connects, especially around platforms.

Uthrow is really good on small stages, but not with platforms, because you are under us and it's really easy to take advantage of Falco.

I can't say much on actual stages because I'm very favored towards the Neutrals and I don't know how to play anywhere else.

55:45 Falco


You might find the way I view things odd, because I play very random and I only remember reallly situational crap. I might come back to post more too, I just had to do this twice and really got lazy with it.

What to avoid:

with proper DI he gets 1 or 2 walking regrabs but the timing is really tight.

beware of Uair, it can SURPRISE kill you every once in awhile :<

and take note that Falco's Fsmash is just as long as ours.

I would recommend not trying to plank against Falco. Doing it repeatedly could lead to a dair to the face or bair stagespike.

Oh yeah, don't AD his uair, that's bait for a bair.

ive learned a few things about Falco in the last few tournaments ive attended... i'll share my thoughts

attempting to juggle Falco with utilt is not a good idea at very low %s, he can very easily shield/PS the second utilt and grab you for a painful dthrow->dair/nair(or something else that isnt fun!). i have also found that aerial followups from a forcepalm can be risky at low %s due to falco's fast falling speed, and that ftilt->grab->uthrow->utilt(or aerial followups) works much better

being aggressive is vital to defeating falco, but you need to be very cautious because even if you power shield that one laser, he might boost smash out of nowhere and hit you with no problems at all.

if falco starts jabbing or grabbing, get away by jumping or rolling... you arent going to win unless falco screws up.

when you get falco offstage(fthrow is great at this) i find that throwing a middle sized sphere works great, it baits his reflector or an air dodge which often gets him into a position in which he is on level with the stage while offstage, get on the edge and get ready to bair or uair, both beat falco's sideB at low %s. just be mindful of his second jump.

as for stages I've been finding that brinstar(although im sure everyone already knows he is bad on that stage) is an excellent counterpick if it's legal, it pretty much shuts down his entire "GTFO" game but you need to be extra careful
you dont get fsmashed

his CG dosent work on us, we outrange him almost completely, the only real problem we have with falco is the lasers... we have no 100% answer to them that im aware of... thats a big problem but i find that a combination of shielding/jumping/double team help somewhat with this issue

im not entirely sure about MU ratio... i am thinking either its even or a slight advantage in either's favor

Fighting a Falco that approaches is a dead even matchup, maybe slightly in our favor.

If the Falco is dead set on just shooting lasers and phantasm'ing through you when you approach, it's a pretty distinct disadvantage for us. The fact of the matter is that you just can't catch him.

I'd say Lucario's best tool in any matchup is his Aura Sphere, which makes Falco a very unfortunate matchup because of the reflector. Seeing as how it comes out on frame 1, there is hardly -any- room to catch him with one unless he is recovering, in which case only larger aura spheres will hit him through a phantasm. If Falco uses upB in any situation, he's as good as dead anyway. The first thing you need to do if he does use upB is grab the ledge.

Beware of Falco's ability to dodge. His spotdodge and roll are quite good, and he can spotdodge to grab quicker than you might think. If you want to punish his spotdodge, get really good at using Dsmash, or go the simple way and use Forward+A to Fsmash instead of your c-stick. Using the button layout over the stick gives you a bit more of a startup time, which is soooo beneficial against people who like to spotdodge.

Falco can chaingrab/pillar every character in the game if you're fighting someone who knows what they're doing. If what Kismet told me is true (and I remember correctly), Falco can do 3 CG's, and D-air, and there is a small frame where you can roll away before he grabs you again. You MUST. Be. WARY of this, though, and make sure he doesn't hit you with it. Else you're going to start off with an 80% handicap, just like the rest of the cast.

Also. Do -not- forget about Falco's best close-up move, Jab. It comes out in 2 (two) frames and has a ridiculous priority set to it. Needless to say, if Falco gets in a jab against you, roll away as soon as you can or else you're going to get grabbed, or other bad tidings will come upon you.

Beware of getting edgeguarded by Falco. Like most characters, and smart players, people can just hold on to the ledge until you get back on the stage and punish your landing lag with it. MASTER THE NO-LAG EXTREMESPEED in order to avoid this! I can't stress this enough. Anyone who has fought a not-******** Snake knows exactly what I'm talking about. Also, off-stage, Falco can fall and B-air and still recover while you're dying, but if you're not dead, he will be. I've not seen any Falcos but Kismet doing this. However, he can also jump and B-air, just like they do in Melee.

How to win:

you guys should definitely know this by now. Lasers go pew.

always keep ****ing close to him. he doesnt have much on lucario's CQC. stay away, and get your *** camped. he can walking chaingrab lucario around 2x iirc, and can pull of a dair or an upsmash to end it. Offstage, AS can screw his recovery if you can predict his illusion. in the air, Falco cant fight lucario there without his lasers, and he just gets *****. He'll be staying away from you the whole time and illusion away if you DO get close, but you can grab/attack him out of it when he's not invincible.

You guys pretty much nailed what I do though. Stay in close. Like not right up in his face cause Falco's jab is fast and you'll get jab grabbed. I like to stay just close enough he can't jab me, but far enough away I can hit him with F-tilt. He will use a side B or two if he is thinking about fleeing. Try to dair this and you should hit him out if you time it right. The more you play Falcos the more you can predict when he's going to use it.

The good things about this match up are:

A. Lucario can't be chain grabbed at all. With proper DI he can only dair CG you once I think. You are too floaty to be walking chain grabbed. I do also think due to how floaty you are, even if Falco gets a dair grab off on you he can't re-grab in time before you can get away. Falcos always ***** about not being able to CG Lucario. You have to DI straight up and you can usually dair him if he tries to dair or re-grab.

B. Falco has to get you to a ridiculous percentage to KO you. So your aura is gonna mess his *** up. Big KOs moves to watch for are spaced bair, and silent lasered U-smash. You can avoid both those pretty easily, so getting KOed early shouldn't happen unless you miscalculate.

Helpful tips:

FCAS is generally not a good idea against a grounded Falco. I prefer to pepper BaSes in there. Only use FCAS when Falco is offstage to force an air dodge. They generally won't shine your FCAS if you shoot it offstage because if you don't get hit they are usually setting themselves up for a hard time getting back on stage. So save the FCAS for edge guarding purposes. When he is recovering, you can F-smash side B, just make sure you time it right, cause if you predict wrong he's getting onstage. I prefer dairing his Side B as opposed to trying to F-smash it.

dtilt is also a good move for stopping phantasm, and I haven't tried it yet, but Dash attack might be a good one too, since it does nice damage, sets up for really good stuff, and comes out on frame 9.

I bet some stages let you get a little more for your duck. Would anything with as slight a dip as YI make Lucario crouch a little better?
Oh, and dtilt is proven to stop phantasm, if you don't believe me, D. Disciple has a set where he dtilts phantasm several times vs. Falco.

You can knock Falco out of Phantasm as long you don't hit him during his invincibility. Heck, you can just jab him out of it. You just need to learn the timing. I've actually managed to Force Palm grab someone out of it...it's pretty funny.

Every move except DT can stop Falco's Phantasm, you can be charging your AS and it will stop him. If the Falco isn't silent lasering me, or if I'm not Perfect Shielding his lasers, I either dtilt, utilt, ftilt, or jab them. You have to think of it like Melee if they phantasm, jab them then attack.

Stages:

If japes is legal in this tourny and you fight falco
BAND THE CRAP OUT OF THIS STAGE

It's so bad, it allows a perfect camp lol

Avoid FD and Japes, obviously. Avoid stages that lack pits, because Falco's mediocre recovery is one of the main things to exploit in this matchup.

Lots of Falco hate Lylat because tilting can screw with their recovery.

Most tourneys don't have Japes on where I go, but if they do, ban that I guess. If it is on, you're boned either way cause Falco is just as good on FD and if he doesn't want to get in close, he doesn't have to. So if no Japes, I like to ban FD. Any stage other than FD is pretty awesome vs Falco cause you can use platforms to your advantage for the most part and Falco doesn't really like them as much. Just gotta be weary of nairs.

On FD don't be surprised if you lose. Falco likes to laser spam, Side-B when you get close, /repeat and there is not much you can do about it other than fake out like you are going in close and catch him when he side Bs close to you. What I like to do is just do a SH dair and it usually knocks Falco out if he tries to side B. I totally hate this fight on FD, it is so much more bearable on any other stage.

Kismet bans Brinstar against me. Falco has no camping potential on this stage because his phantasm will make him die.

Brinstar is by far the best stage to take Falco to. Just make sure it counts, because every time you fight them from then on they will ban that stage.

If we're talking stages, The smaller the better, with Frigate as an exception.

BF/Yoshis/Lylat for your neutral CPs.

Castle Siege is decent seeing that Castle1 is very good if you can control the left side at the beginning.
Castle 2 gives you breathing space from lasers until he destroys them as well.
Castle 3 is more of falco's advantage... but sometimes you can crouch under the lasers there, it messes with IAP though.

Frigate is good seeing that the left side makes SideB risky and the stage flip falco needs to be in the middle to laser effectively which takes out SideB as an laser follow-up.

Frigate is so awesome in this MU if Brinstar is banned. I've seen falco's accidentally phantasm suicide because they missed the floating platform on the right side of the first tranformation of the stage XD




Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

Good stuff guys.

 

[F1ZZ]

Wow alot of info.

Only thing that could improve is that ugly picture of Falco.

 

[phi1ny3]

all the other ones were too generic/seen before.

I like being original :V

Edit: Is that a better one?

 

[iRJi]

Who was saying that we were going too fast and not getting enough information is blind. LOL

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Who was saying that we were going too fast and not getting enough information is blind. LOL

Not this MU it was the later ones that people were saying needed more time.

 

[G-Beast]

Wow that's a big export... an excellent dicussion this time 'round folks!

 

[F1ZZ]

The picture is 100 times better Phil.

 

[xxpatgxx]

This thread is helpful. I'll post my point of view from playing great falcos like Bleachigo and Bloodcross.

I'll do it soon

 

[BleachigoZX]

Oh man, I'm good?

 

[phi1ny3]

He's Legendary? o_O

 

[xxpatgxx]

55:45...Stike FD!

I feel this matchup can be pretty tricky when both players are on the same level of skill. There are 2 amazing cps we have on falco that can screw him over, pretty badly. We can either take him to brinstar, which was mentioned above, or we can take him to frigate. Frigate is small giving Falco little room to camp safely. It can also mess with his recovery, while it can enhance ours' with wall cling. When the stage flips to the right side, if falco is recovering from below with Fire Bird he probably won't make it back. On the left side if we're to knock him off we can just spam BASs and just edgegaurd pretty easily. Just be aware that the smaller blast zones can hurt you as well. Note that if the falco perfectly times a d-air spike while the stage flips, he could potentially spike our stock if we're not careful.

 

[Zucco]

Oh man, I'm good?

 

[D. Disciple]

oh yeah !

 

[iRJi]

Enough. Keep it clean.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Upsmash OoS ***** Jab-Jab anything so be careful RJ. This was something I completely forgot about last week at the Crew meet.


@Zucco
(My stocks) ---------------------(Zucco's stocks)
-------------------- :oh wait there are none!:

 

[Zucco]

Why do you keep bringing up a 2 stock you did to me that was in the same set where you lost to Ness twice? Which low tier should I bust out next on you?! maybe Lucas to continue the mother ****. that'll be fun.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Why do you keep bringing up a 2 stock you did to me that was in the same set where you lost to Ness twice?

How many people can say they have 2 stocked Zucco? (I also did it in our first MM ever. The one where I phantasm'd through AS.)

(Delfino + Ness > Falco, btw. My Asian friend did all the math.)

I miss you bro, I gotta come back.

 

[Zucco]

How many people can say they have 2 stocked Zucco? (I also did it in our first MM ever. The one where I phantasm'd through AS.)

(Delfino + Ness > Falco, btw. My Asian friend did all the math.)

I miss you bro, I gotta come back.

Im sure some can........I dunno. Yeah Ness + delfino is a **** combo, but I you shoulda just stuck with Falco game 3 instead of Marth. You would have won that though, but lucky for me I made a Justin wong vs Yipes comeback to win it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVmc5ZepdVs for those who dont understand)

COME TO ANOTHER TOURNEY ****IT!

 

[BleachigoZX]

Does Lucario have any way to keep moving while Dairing? I feel like that would **** Falco.

Also people have to start getting better with Force Palm. It's such a good move that is underused. You could try to catch Falco out of Phantasm like that, or other stuff.

 

[Alus]

You're kidding right?

 

[BleachigoZX]

Kidding about what?

 

[D. Disciple]

He's not lying guys, I do it on my friend who is phantasm happy. He such good practice lol.

For the non momentum dair, Lucario just needs to perfect shield it, then do a dair immediately. I started to do it to retreat from attacks.

 

[manhunter098]

If you pay attention to the hitstun and knockback you receive from an attack you can also retaliate with a falling d-air, its somewhat predictable if your opponent can figure it out though, and situational, but it makes a great surprise.

 

[D. Disciple]

You can it that way as well, but shielding an attack, then doing it immediately with the hit stun still in play is more effective.

 

[xxpatgxx]

He's not lying guys, I do it on my friend who is phantasm happy. He such good practice lol.

For the non momentum dair, Lucario just needs to perfect shield it, then do a dair immediately. I started to do it to retreat from attacks.

yep, then just dair OOS.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hey guys, wait a sec... you talked about Air Walking without me?

Does Lucario have any way to keep moving while Dairing? I feel like that would **** Falco.

C/P from a more detailed thread I made on AiB.

How to perform Air Walking:

1. Be pushed by an attack in your shield.
2. Jump.
3. DAir up, forwards, or backwards (C-Stick down).

Note: If you shield DI/SDI towards the person you will get more range when you Air Walk.

This might seem simple enough, but the timing to do it is pretty strict. However, this will allow you to punish some moves like: Marth's non-tippered FSmash, Olimar's smashes, Falco's FSmash, Snakes grenades (gogo shield pressure!), etc.

Oh and even stuff like Falco's Ftilt this will work against, but again with more shield stun the easier it is to pull off.

There are other forms of non-stall DAir that some may or may not be used to.

1. Out of hitstun (allows you to use it with the momentum you have).
2. Jumping out of hitsun (you're not actually in hitstun when you jump out of hitstun, but you can do a rising DAir in the air that way). If that made any sense...
3. Fast fall DAir (exactly how it sounds).

tl;dr If Falco messes up something like a USmash and it hits Lucario's shield Falco can get walked on by a rising DAir. Well... This would be more true if people actually practiced this advanced tech. >.> HINT HINT

He's not lying guys, I do it on my friend who is phantasm happy. He such good practice lol.

For the non momentum dair, Lucario just needs to perfect shield it, then do a dair immediately. I started to do it to retreat from attacks.

You can it that way as well, but shielding an attack, then doing it immediately with the hit stun still in play is more effective.

Just for the record and for clarity perfect shielding is one of the ways to do it, but its easier to use when there's shield push (which you have mentioned).

 

[phi1ny3]

MTI, Trela loves walking, look at some of his videos.

 

[Zucco]

is there a video on said technique?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Well there was gonna be a vid that Vex was putting together, but his computer went kaput. Shippo might have some replays if you bug him.

Also the walking Trela does seems to be more towards jumping out of hitstun, not the shield one.

However, if you wanna practice on lolwifi later I'd be happy to help.

Edit: Oh I just remembered a vid where Lee Martin performing it once in a match, lemme find the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58b6ForL4fc At 1:23, its not the most perfect example, but that's it performed.