Matchup Re-Discussion (2010 edition): Snake

[KayLo!]

@Ftilt: You really can't punish it on block if he's spacing it right. He'll probably pivot grab or jab any of your attempts to do anything..... or ftilt you again. Or shield, in which case you're screwed unless you grab, which is slow enough that it'll get beaten by any of the aforementioned options. (Hell, at Zelda's poor running speed, he could probably do any of those things OOS when he realizes you're going for a grab. x.x)

If Snake is ftilt happy with superior spacing, the best thing to do is jump over it + land with a nair or get behind him. You might be able to dsmash before the second hit if you pshield the first, but I don't think dsmash has enough range if he's got godly spacing. Invisible knee shenanigans.

@Stages: Uhh.... don't go anywhere dark if you have a hard time seeing nades and C4s like I do. I actually like FD/SV for this MU since they're nice and basic, although SV gives him the option of setting up the moving platform for ****. I still like CS too, but nobody ever agrees with me on that. ;;

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@Ftilt: You really can't punish it on block if he's spacing it right. He'll probably pivot grab or jab any of your attempts to do anything..... or ftilt you again. Or shield, in which case you're screwed unless you grab, which is slow enough that it'll get beaten by any of the aforementioned options. (Hell, at Zelda's poor running speed, he could probably do any of those things OOS when he realizes you're going for a grab. x.x)

If Snake is ftilt happy with superior spacing, the best thing to do is jump over it + land with a nair or get behind him. You might be able to dsmash before the second hit if you pshield the first, but I don't think dsmash has enough range if he's got godly spacing. Invisible knee shenanigans.

@Stages: Uhh.... don't go anywhere dark if you have a hard time seeing nades and C4s like I do. I actually like FD/SV for this MU since they're nice and basic, although SV gives him the option of setting up the moving platform for ****. I still like CS too, but nobody ever agrees with me on that. ;;

What difference does it make if it's spaced poorly or properly all of his options are faster?

@ CLowsui even if you reset the position he can just ftilt you again and you can't be out ftilt one and ftilt 2 comes out faster than your fsmash and out ranges it.

@scary you can punish ftilt with Bair OoS ?

Who ever said snake can't tech chase dthrow is a liar the range on utilt is obnoxious.

 

[KayLo!]

I don't think anybody said he can't tech chase out of dthrow..... but it's considerably harder for him on Zelda since her tech roll is long. He doesn't have a move that'll cover every option she has (unlike characters like Olimar who barely move). The only exception is if he dthrows you at the edge of a platform or on the ledge, but in that case, you did something dumb to put yourself in that position.

@Ftilt spacing: If he's spacing poorly, you can punish before he can get another ftilt/grab/whatever out. If he's spacing correctly, you can't (mostly because of ftilt's shield stun/push). That's a pretty major difference.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't think anybody said he can't tech chase out of dthrow..... but it's considerably harder for him on Zelda since her tech roll is long. He doesn't have a move that'll cover every option she has (unlike characters like Olimar who barely move). The only exception is if he dthrows you at the edge of a platform or on the ledge, but in that case, you did something dumb to put yourself in that position.

@Ftilt spacing: If he's spacing poorly, you can punish before he can get another ftilt/grab/whatever out. If he's spacing correctly, you can't (mostly because of ftilt's shield stun/push). That's a pretty major difference.

What do you punish with if he spaces poorly ?

 

[KayLo!]

If you pshield the first hit, dsmash.

If not, dash attack. Maybe dtilt, but I pretty much always go for dash attack.

I've stutter stepped away into a reverse fsmash before..... but in most cases, the second part of ftilt will come out before your fsmash does.

Relying on his bad spacing is kinda tho.

 

[MrEh]

Relying on your opponent's mistakes is always bad. Which again, shows how bad this matchup is.

If you know you can't punish the Ftilt, just walk away after shielding it. Over extension will just be met...with another Ftilt.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If you pshield the first hit, dsmash.

If not, dash attack. Maybe dtilt, but I pretty much always go for dash attack.

I've stutter stepped away into a reverse fsmash before..... but in most cases, the second part of ftilt will come out before your fsmash does.

Relying on his bad spacing is kinda tho.

I don't think you can punish with any of those moves inbetween ftilt 1 and ftilt 2. I'm pretty sure at best you'll clash and that won't even help you.

Has anyone tried SDI'ing the first hit of the ftilt? SDI through him that is.

Stutter step fsmash will just get you hit by ftilt not in most cases but in all cases. The second hit comes out way to fast for fsmash. You can start ftilt and fsmash at the same time snake will whiff ftilt 1 and you'll still get hit by ftilt 2 before fsmash out fsmash barely comes out you take like 20 damage snake takes one and you guys get like sucked in from some type of weird force.

@ Mr eh. What's stopping him from just going ftilt ftilt ftilt until we're out of stage?

 

[KayLo!]

I meant dash attack after the whole thing. I mean, we were assuming poor spacing, right?

You can dsmash between the two parts if you pshield the first (and, obviously, he misspaces it).

If he's just ftilting forward constantly like a dummy, you can jump over it or roll behind him..... -_______-

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I meant dash attack after the whole thing. I mean, we were assuming poor spacing, right?

You can dsmash between the two parts if you pshield the first (and, obviously, he misspaces it).

If he's just ftilting forward constantly like a dummy, you can jump over it or roll behind him..... -_______-

Ok I'll try jumping over him Full hop right? I won't roll behind since he'll just turn around and ftilt.

 

[KayLo!]

I mean, no option's completely safe, but you were implying the Snake was ftilting forward over and over and over.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So there isn't much Zelda can do against snakes ftilt except try options that aren't to safe?

 

[KayLo!]

Or shield, lol.

It's faster and outranges everything we have when spaced properly, even fsmash (inorite?!). And Zelda's too slow to punish it on block except on a pshield (in which case you can punish with dash attack -- or part 1 with dsmash if he doesn't space it well).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

im learning sheik someone teach me sheik pl0x.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

*

@scary you can punish ftilt with Bair OoS ?

Who ever said snake can't tech chase dthrow is a liar the range on utilt is obnoxious.

I've done this on many occasions. The buffer is tricky but it's certainly doable. I'd say tho, be wary with how his spacing is and you may need to PS the first part because then it won't push you can enough.

 

[choknater]

im learning sheik someone teach me sheik pl0x.

for the sheik v snake matchup

u needle a lot while he is pulling nades and it will make him drop them close

dont punish his tilts unless u powershield them, even tho sheik is so fast and can punish almost everything on shield, she still cant punish snakes ftilt that well (if he jabs right after)

sometimes he doesnt do anything right after ftilt and sheik can punish

just try to spam needles and itll make him try to get close

its not so hard to grab him

once u ftilt him or utilt him or throw him, he will be in the air, get under him and ****

edgeguard with fair bair nair, needle if u think hes gonna jump into them

always try to fully charge needles








basically heres the momentum of the matchup:

sheik needle and tilt racku p damage till snake gets to like 200 and kill him with a random fair/bair/nair edgeguard

snake gets a good approach and does some crazy dthrow/tilt shenanigans and kills sheik at 100



sheiks racking to 200 happens at the same pace as snake's racking to 100

so just cuz snake has high damage doesnt mean sheiks killing sucks... just believe in sheiks agility that she can rack so much damage before snake can even get any. ive literally 0-death snakes from like 0 to 150 without getting hit before, just need good reads

hehe sorry for putting this in the zelda boards but i think sheik is much more effective than zelda in this matchup (though zelda still fairly decent)

 

[KayLo!]

Soooo, yeah, remember the vid I posted of Zelda dodging Nikita with usmash? x.x

It happens with all her smashes, lol. Usmash, fsmash, and jab all make Nikita go right through you..... must be a hitbox thing.

Useless but interesting. Typical Zelda. -_-

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Can we Nair it as well?

what if he drops it on us, can we still smash it and it will go through?

 

[KayLo!]

Dunno, it wasn't really important enough for me to test a lot..... we just tried it a few times with different ground moves.

Since we've done about all the discussion we need to on this MU, I'll write up the summary once I get back to Philly. Honestly, the Snake MU gets easier and easier each time I play it...... but you really, really need to be on your prediction game, so technically I'd still leave it at 30:70. It's manageable with good player-to-player skills, tho.

Nades are the worst part for me. -_- Between having to worry about getting hit by them, accidentally picking them up with aerials/airdodges, and having them blow up every time you try to hit him, they're the real matchup breaker imo.

 

[choknater]

snake is too gahlike for zelda, press that down b

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dunno, it wasn't really important enough for me to test a lot..... we just tried it a few times with different ground moves.

Since we've done about all the discussion we need to on this MU, I'll write up the summary once I get back to Philly. Honestly, the Snake MU gets easier and easier each time I play it...... but you really, really need to be on your prediction game, so technically I'd still leave it at 30:70. It's manageable with good player-to-player skills, tho.

Nades are the worst part for me. -_- Between having to worry about getting hit by them, accidentally picking them up with aerials/airdodges, and having them blow up every time you try to hit him, they're the real matchup breaker imo.

oh i see. i think nades are the worst part of this MU too. take them away and it fees like a 40:60 to me.

 

[Darkmusician]

oh i see. i think nades are the worst part of this MU too. take them away and it fees like a 40:60 to me.

I don't think so. Even without the nades Zelda is still free for Snake. Certainly doesn't make or break the match up as drastically as his tilts and stage control.

 

[KayLo!]

Meh, I don't think his tilts are thaaaat bad, it's just the nade/C4 camp that really gets me. -____-

And from a Snake co-main who's too lazy to post...... he thinks Snake's shield > tilts is a big factor too, but I semi-disagree. Meh. Either way, Snake MU sucks balls, but it's still so fun. <3

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

there's nothing fun about this MU. Snake's tilt's are a huge factor in this match up. Whoever thinks otherwise =/.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

even when everyone thought Zelda was actually decent we still thought snake was a bad matchup.

my biggest problems are as follows:

stage control: his grenades and even his mortarslide beat pretty much anything zelda can do to camp. Forcing Zelda to approach... which sucks.

Zelda dies easily.... and snake hits hard. I know it seems simple, but it's true and it sucks.

Snakes tilts have, innexplicably, about the same hitbox extension as Zelda's sparkles. Meaning it is SUPER hard to hit that tight jump-suit wearing box-hiding freak without trading hits... which will tickle him for 1-2% damage and send Zelda REELING.






If we could just safely pressure his sheild, we'd be fine though.... but we can't. so we eat tilts like nobody's business.

It's still not an UNWINNABLE matchup . . . but it's pretty horrible.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think so. Even without the nades Zelda is still free for Snake. Certainly doesn't make or break the match up as drastically as his tilts and stage control.

yeah.

this matchup is at least 65:35 his advantage, maybe even 70:30.


and once it's that bad.... it's bad.


at least he's a large target for lighting kicks.... and his up+B recovery from our D-Smash SHOULD be a free kill if you've been practicing lightning heel

 

[KayLo!]

there's nothing fun about this MU.

Oh man, you crazy. The Snake MU is one of the best ones! I dunno, I like being forced to think smart..... knowing that if I mess up, it's death in like 5-6 hits. =X

As for tilts vs. nades, it's a moot point since he has both anyway, but I'd much rather fight a no-nade Snake than a no-tilt one. Nades (combined with his other explosives) are just too good at controlling the stage. x.x Personal preference I guess!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Oh man, you crazy. The Snake MU is one of the best ones! I dunno, I like being forced to think smart..... knowing that if I mess up, it's death in like 5-6 hits. =X

As for tilts vs. nades, it's a moot point since he has both anyway, but I'd much rather fight a no-nade Snake than a no-tilt one. Nades (combined with his other explosives) are just too good at controlling the stage. x.x Personal preference I guess!

pfft his tilt's control the stage the range and knock back on his tilt's is obnoxious.

 

[Darkmusician]

I don't find Snake vs Zelda fun at all. Even if I win. I find it quite dumb.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't find Snake vs Zelda fun at all. Even if I win. I find it quite dumb.

I agree. it's not a fun matchup knowing how much less room for error you have than your oponent.

 

[GodAtHand]

I occasionally enjoy myself a good Snake VS Zelda match! It's one of those times where if you can just stay on your A-game you can really make the Snake player feel like ****, and that is one of the best feelings ever! Once you win just revel in it for hours and you will feel terrific.

 

[Darkmusician]

I agree. it's not a fun matchup knowing how much less room for error you have than your oponent.

Yeah the margin for error is so lopsided.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think whoever enjoys this MU is a masochist anyway can we move on to the next match up?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

i occasionally enjoy myself a good snake vs zelda match! It's one of those times where if you can just stay on your a-game you can really make the snake player feel like ****, and that is one of the best feelings ever! Once you win just revel in it for hours and you will feel terrific.

hyeeezzzzz!!!!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah the margin for error is so lopsided.

example: last tourney I played, I started out with a one stock advantage vs. the snake I was playing against due to a few well placed lightning kicks.

I misspaced ONE Fsmash and he killed me at fairly low damage with utilt... and then I never could regain momentum.

 

[KayLo!]

That's the fun part. =D Keeps you on your toes.

@AL: Well, this is the individual thread for Snake only, so if you wanna move on, you gotta go post who you wanna do next in the central MU thread. This topic will always be for Snake, lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

That's the fun part. =D Keeps you on your toes.

@AL: Well, this is the individual thread for Snake only, so if you wanna move on, you gotta go post who you wanna do next in the central MU thread. This topic will always be for Snake, lol.

it's only fun when BOTH of you could be dead meat with one mistep.

not when one mistep kills you, and snake can live from 5 or more.

 

[KayLo!]

http://www.simbafriends.com/sounds/Simba/ILaughInTheFaceOfDanger.wav

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

http://www.simbafriends.com/sounds/Simba/ILaughInTheFaceOfDanger.wav

clearly that event turned out well for simba afterall.

 

[KayLo!]

Dunno, he ended up the king at the end. You can lose a match and still win the set. =P

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dunno, he ended up the king at the end. You can lose a match and still win the set. =P

he must have switched from zelda to sheik then